RE: Why aren't there stricter protocals in place about foreigners speaking the native launguage better?

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RE: Why aren't there stricter protocals in place about ... - 12/11/2008 6:57:10 PM

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The United States of America does not have an official language (though the new citizenship exam has an English section*). Which is basically the answer to your question of why don't we have stricter protocols regarding people being able to speak it.
But I ask you this: have you ever lived someplace else? Have you ever had to spend every day communicating in a language that isn't your native one? It is incredibly difficult, even if one has studied the language.
This is why you find people who were doctors, lawyers, scholars in their home countries working as taxi drivers in the US (I used to work with a lot of Ethiopian immigrants who were bus drivers, a lot of them were incredibly smart people, though their English was still not fabulous). Consider that communication requires two people to be effective, and if someone isn't understanding you, it isn't necessarily their fault.

*According to the US Citizenship and Immigration Services website:
To be eligible for naturalization, you must be able to read, write, and speak basic English. You must also have a basic knowledge of U.S. history and government (also known as “civics”). During your interview, a USCIS officer will test your ability to read, write, and speak English and your knowledge of civics. An officer will ask you to read up to three sentences in English and write up to three dictated sentences in English. The officer will test you in civics through an oral exam of up to ten questions. Your ability to speak English is determined during your interview on the Application for Naturalization, Form N-400.

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RE: Why aren't there stricter protocals in place about ... - 12/11/2008 6:57:48 PM

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PUBLIC SERVICE ANNOUNCEMENT

i just needed to state for the record that i have nothing against anyone who is the 'chief' in charge of Indians. And by Indians please know I am referring to American Indians, Native Indians, Sioux Indians etc.

End of public service announcement.

Kali

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RE: Why aren't there stricter protocals in place about ... - 12/11/2008 6:58:27 PM

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tsatske, the well it was copied right as she spelled it, was an attempt at light heartedness, not an excuse as to why it's spelled wrong.

Yes, you're right, if you feel the doctor, or lawer or indian cheif, isn't communicating effectivly ask for another one.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tsatske

YHMA - request a different doctor/lawyer/Indian chief.
Walk out of the office and pick up a phone book and look under 'beggar men' and call one and make an appointment.

or ask if you can speak to a supervisor and say, 'I need another Indian chief, this one can not seem to understand me, and they are not going to be able to take care of me well if they don't know what I am talking about.'

I am sure you will point out that some people, in the particular case of doctors, lawyers and Indian chiefs, more so than candlemakers or beggarmans or thief, do not get to chose their own.

However, if you ask to speak to a hospital or clinic supervisor, or speak to your judge, you CAN demand another if you can not communicate with yours, language wise.

Did I mention the free market aspect here?

Oh, btw - if you asked for permission, and she did not want accreditation, then, true, it is not plagiarized. However, You did decide to put it on your sigline, uncredited. It is fine to do so, since you had the authors permission, but still your decision - so, it is still silly to fall back on blaming an uncredited author for mistakes, when you are using it as your own, up to being called on mistakes. its a bit felicitous, if you ask me, which no one did.

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RE: Why aren't there stricter protocals in place about ... - 12/11/2008 7:01:32 PM

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I went to germany as a small child, which doesn't count since at 2I didn't have to worry about speaking german.

So no, I've never been out of country as an adult who has to speak for themself, and was in a place for long times where english was not native.

It makes sense, is it really possible though to study a launguage for say 20 years and still not really speak it very well? I guess it would be.

quote:

ORIGINAL: blushingflower

The United States of America does not have an official language (though the new citizenship exam has an English section*). Which is basically the answer to your question of why don't we have stricter protocols regarding people being able to speak it.
But I ask you this: have you ever lived someplace else? Have you ever had to spend every day communicating in a language that isn't your native one? It is incredibly difficult, even if one has studied the language.
This is why you find people who were doctors, lawyers, scholars in their home countries working as taxi drivers in the US (I used to work with a lot of Ethiopian immigrants who were bus drivers, a lot of them were incredibly smart people, though their English was still not fabulous). Consider that communication requires two people to be effective, and if someone isn't understanding you, it isn't necessarily their fault.

*According to the US Citizenship and Immigration Services website:
To be eligible for naturalization, you must be able to read, write, and speak basic English. You must also have a basic knowledge of U.S. history and government (also known as “civics”). During your interview, a USCIS officer will test your ability to read, write, and speak English and your knowledge of civics. An officer will ask you to read up to three sentences in English and write up to three dictated sentences in English. The officer will test you in civics through an oral exam of up to ten questions. Your ability to speak English is determined during your interview on the Application for Naturalization, Form N-400.

(in reply to blushingflower)

RE: Why aren't there stricter protocals in place about ... - 12/11/2008 7:03:06 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomMeinCT

You have the choice to stay with her and complain, or vote with your feet and find another doctor.

Finding another doctor that met her needs would render the desire to start this type of biggoted thread moot.

And frankly, my world just wouldn't be complete without them.

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RE: Why aren't there stricter protocals in place about ... - 12/11/2008 7:04:06 PM

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quote:

tsatske i think you may be incorrect in assuming that YHMA knows what the first ammendment is or is about. Just my thoughts, Kali

Kali,
She MUST know all about the first amendment. She is an American citizen, and she doesn't think people should be ALLOWED to be American citizens without Much STRICTER requirements. And she would be able to pass those requrements, too, if they made her.

And there are some questions about those amendments on the citizenship test.

So, if I put all these facts together, logically - yes, I must assume that she knows what the first amendment - and all the others - are about.

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RE: Why aren't there stricter protocals in place about ... - 12/11/2008 7:05:30 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: YourhandMyAss

It makes sense, is it really possible though to study a launguage for say 20 years and still not really speak it very well? I guess it would be.

There are tons of people who have managed to go through life not learning how to write a language properly, why isn't it possible that they not learn to speak it properly?

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Do not challenge me to a battle of wits & come to fight unarmed.

Are you really that stupid? ~ Bless your heart

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RE: Why aren't there stricter protocals in place about ... - 12/11/2008 7:05:51 PM

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I've heard of Americans who didn't know what a cow looked like. Someone from India would...

quote:

ORIGINAL: YourhandMyAss

Because I speak slowly and clearly, and have slowly and clearly repeated myself, and she still didn't know what a horse was, untill I pointed to the calander on the wall, that had a pic of a horse.

Then and only then, did she understand what a horse is. And what I ride horses mean.

I do agree somethings could be the fault of the person speaking, but if you're not garbling your words, and are speaking plainly and enunciating, and they still don't get it? No, it's not the fault of the speaker I don't feel.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Daddysredhead

Maybe you aren't speaking clearly enough. Why do you assume it's their issue?

(in reply to YourhandMyAss)

RE: Why aren't there stricter protocals in place about ... - 12/11/2008 7:06:15 PM

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What about us cheifs?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kalista07

i just needed to state for the record that i have nothing against anyone who is the 'chief' in charge of Indians.

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RE: Why aren't there stricter protocals in place about ... - 12/11/2008 7:06:23 PM

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tsatske,
True...True... Although, when she failed the test, it would clearly NOT be her fault. It would be the proctor's fault, the instructor's fault, the test manufactorer's fault, etc. etc. etc. etc.
Kali

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RE: Why aren't there stricter protocals in place about ... - 12/11/2008 7:09:40 PM

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BitchGoddess, that is true, and other than our speaking difficulties, she's a very gentle doctor, and It's why I don't ask for another one.

I've had quite a few doctors in the past, and not all were so kind or gentle in their handling of patients. And some of them spoke very well.

quote:

ORIGINAL: BitchGoddessD

Remember that communication is a two-way street. If you don't at least try, you may be the one losing out.

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RE: Why aren't there stricter protocals in place about ... - 12/11/2008 7:12:59 PM

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tsatske, Would the first amendment be freedom of speech? Kalista, is right, I don't know the whole Constitution. I know a few, but not all.

I said I believe you should be able to speak it better than some can, if you wish to apply for citizenship. It's a bit different than there should be stricter rules.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tsatske

quote:

tsatske i think you may be incorrect in assuming that YHMA knows what the first ammendment is or is about. Just my thoughts, Kali

Kali,
She MUST know all about the first amendment. She is an American citizen, and she doesn't think people should be ALLOWED to be American citizens without Much STRICTER requirements. And she would be able to pass those requrements, too, if they made her.

And there are some questions about those amendments on the citizenship test.

So, if I put all these facts together, logically - yes, I must assume that she knows what the first amendment - and all the others - are about.

(in reply to tsatske)

RE: Why aren't there stricter protocals in place about ... - 12/11/2008 7:15:24 PM

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it's possible to still have an accent (look at Kissinger or Schwartzenagger). It's possible to still have a limited vocabulary. (there are a ridiculous number of words in the English language, I'm willing to bet you don't know them all, I sure as heck don't)
It's possible to occasionally have difficulty with a person's accent or dialect (I'm a native speaker, I've been told by non-native speakers that they've understood me better than any of my coworkers- when I worked for a tour company-, and I still sometimes have to ask people to repeat themselves because of their accent, or even because they use a different word than I do for the same thing). It's possible to sometimes just have one of those days where your brain won't process language correctly. When I studied in Germany, I had native speakers compliment my German. I still had days when the language didn't make sense, people I couldn't understand (like the little girl in my building, which made me feel like fucking moron even though I'm not), words I had to look up because they hadn't been part of my curriculum at school (or they had, but we'd learned them and then not used them a lot).
Also, many immigrant doctors often have practices that consist mostly of people who speak their native language, and thus they don't get the daily English practice some people do.

(in reply to YourhandMyAss)

RE: Why aren't there stricter protocals in place about ... - 12/11/2008 7:16:30 PM

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This thread brings back memories of teaching TEFL English in Poland some years back. I remember my years of working as a lecturer in Practical English in the English Department at a Polish university.

I remember being on the committee of a Spoken English examination the same year someone allowed Suzanne, a guest lecturer from Savannah, GA, to teach English phonetics and pronunciation.

'You're a native speaker, what does changing the tar mean?'
'Is this one from Suzanne's course.'
'I believe so.'
'It's not tar as in tarmac, but tyre.'
'Oh.. and far?'
'Fire, I think.'
'Tard?'
'Feeling sleepy, you know, tired..'
'Oh so hard really meant..?'
'Yes.. Hired, as in employed.'
'Now I see.. So how do you manage to understand Suzanne?'
'Just the same as Ben from Alabama and that guy from Texas, I speak with them in Polish.'
'Oh..'
'But how can you understand them in Polish?'
'Much easier than our own native English. Some people speak it funny, because of their accent.'

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RE: Why aren't there stricter protocals in place about ... - 12/11/2008 7:16:45 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: YourhandMyAss

I said I believe you should be able to speak it better than some can, if you wish to apply for citizenship. It's a bit different than there should be stricter rules.

Thank goodness you don't work for INS.

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RE: Why aren't there stricter protocals in place about ... - 12/11/2008 7:17:33 PM

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While that is probably a thinly concealed dig at my poor skills in english, I will agree that is true. However if I had studied english for 20 years, * impossible in itself since I am only 26* I think I would be much much MUCH improved on my grammar and spelling and such things, since the issue is I was never taught very well about grammar and other stuff when I was going to school, And there's other area's such as math, where there are HUGE gaps in my education.

I remember getting clear up to 12th grade, and never having taken ANY of the courses you'd expect a normal 12th grader to have had. Hell I didn't even know what the chart of elements was, or the charts of mettles, nor did I know how to do algebra or division or fractions, and that's pretty basic, if you had proper schooling along the way..

quote:

ORIGINAL: Daddysredhead

quote:

ORIGINAL: YourhandMyAss

It makes sense, is it really possible though to study a launguage for say 20 years and still not really speak it very well? I guess it would be.

There are tons of people who have managed to go through life not learning how to write a language properly, why isn't it possible that they not learn to speak it properly?

(in reply to Daddysredhead)

RE: Why aren't there stricter protocals in place about ... - 12/11/2008 7:19:02 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kalista07

damn...i knew there was a reason i couldn't relate.....

OMG...Funny story.... One of the counselor's that i supervise is from hungry (or Russia or some damn where) and she taught herself English when they moved over to the United States. So, we were all in staffing one day and she said that a female client had called a male client a "cock something". I quickly (apparently too quickly and too excitedly) said "A cocksucker??!!" Everyone at the table stared at me a few minutes...Anywhooo, she eventually asked what the words that would offend men the most were i told her it would be cocksucker and then i proceeded onto explain to her that for a lot of women it would be cunt...You know, just trying to be my ever-helpful self... It cracked me up that we had to explain to her why people would be so offended by such words....
Sorry to derail from the topic on hand....Who are we judging now?
Kali

LOL, Kali, I can just imagine someone blurting out "Cocksucker!?" in one of our staff meetings.

A friend recently went to Germany on business (he speaks no German). He was in a restaurant trying to order dinner from a waitress that spoke no English. He pointed to an item on the menu and the waitress pointed to her side. Thinking she was indicating ribs, he ordered it. Imagine his surprise when he was served liver. He ate it, life went on and now he has a funny story to tell.

Personally I agree that the world would be a better place without the xenophobia.

< Message edited by Roselaure -- 12/11/2008 7:25:09 PM >

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RE: Why aren't there stricter protocals in place about ... - 12/11/2008 7:19:21 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: YourhandMyAss
It makes sense, is it really possible though to study a launguage for say 20 years and still not really speak it very well? I guess it would be.

Surely, you know this from personal experience?

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RE: Why aren't there stricter protocals in place about ... - 12/11/2008 7:20:45 PM

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I remember a few nights ago, this young soft spoken women kept trying to ask me " What side of the street are you on" since she was trying to come bring an entertainment center to my house, and I had to make her repeat herself 3 times, cause my brain that evening just wasn't absorbing what she asked.

quote:

ORIGINAL: blushingflower

It's possible to sometimes just have one of those days where your brain won't process language correctly.

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RE: Why aren't there stricter protocals in place about ... - 12/11/2008 7:24:43 PM

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Kittin, WEll I never studied english for 20 years, Never really studied it at all, since grammar was only touched briefly on around 1st second and third, and I barely remember those grades. I speak very fluiently, but I don't type so good. So tyhe question is reversed.

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

quote:

ORIGINAL: YourhandMyAss
It makes sense, is it really possible though to study a launguage for say 20 years and still not really speak it very well? I guess it would be.

Surely, you know this from personal experience?

(in reply to kittinSol)

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