RE: disproportionate, much? (Full Version)

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LadyEllen -> RE: disproportionate, much? (12/31/2008 6:09:18 AM)

The representative of Hamas in Lebanon was on the news last night; the most interesting thing to come out of the interview was that “the satellite link is failing” and the interview was cut short when he made a statement that the Israelis had learned well from their former oppression at the hands of the nazis and were now applying such knowledge against the Palestinians.

There are big differences of course. The nazis sought nothing less than the extermination of European Jewry and on the way to that end made their victims slave labourers for as long as they could be useful, working on projects for which ethnic Germans and others were unavailable due to service in the armed forces.

But in many other respects, the man from Hamas draws a useful parallel. The Third Reich shares with the Jewish State a foundation built on religious and political identity which is defined just as strongly by who belongs and who is excluded on the basis of ethnicity.

We may of course make value judgements about the adequacy of the religious and political foundation in each case, but we cannot deny that each has merit to its adherents and each promotes a notion of inherent superiority next to others which are thereby rendered inferior in the minds of those adherents.

And we may of course disagree with the notion that Jewish identity is defined as much ethnically as by any other factor. In doing so though we must remember the frustrations of British Army officers dealing with the aftermath of Bergen-Belsen; survivors having been nursed back to comparative health they were meant to return to their countries of origin, but refused, stating that they were not Polish or French or Dutch or whatever but were Jewish and would only go to their own country in what was then Palestine.

What is difficult to deny however is that this combination of ethnic identity and religious/political identity is a dangerous thing indeed. It is a cause for division – in fact its very purpose is to produce division, and from there it is a short step to it becoming a cause for hostility towards others based on the conviction of its own utter righteousness, and for hostility from others who may react or even be acting on the foundation of their own peculiar version of the same framework of identity.

We see the same mechanism at work all over the world wherever the monotheistic model of the Abrahamic faiths has influenced the people. For ultimately it is this monotheistic model which is the root of such thinking, bringing with it as it must the notion that there is only one valid mode of being, thinking, speaking and doing, and leaving all others as inferior at best, evil at worst. The nazis, with their “ein Reich, ein Volk, ein Fuehrer” fall into this model too.

And so too do the Christians and Islamics, albeit with the distinction that these two having crossed ethnic and even cultural lines over the course of their histories, they are less prone to the influence of the ethnic elements but make up for this in terms of their enhanced religious and political divisiveness. The short lived but incredible success of the nazis in the Third Reich was due to the revolutionary combination of such religious and political identity drawn from Christianity with the notion of Germanic as an ethnic identity. The growth of modern Islamic fundamentalism from primarily Arab origins is also interesting in this regard.

These conclusions however do not bode well for the situation as regards the ongoing conflicts surrounding Israel. For on each side we have factions defined according to religious and political identity, combined with ethnic identity and determined that there is only one valid mode of being, thinking, speaking and acting. On each side we have factions which are utterly convinced of their own inherent superiority and utterly convinced of their righteousness and ultimate victory. On each side we have factions that see their neighbours as inferior, wrong and evil.

It can be held from this that there can be no solution to such antipathy save for either the removal of one faction or the removal of the thought forms which promote and produce the divisions and antipathy between them. The building of high walls and the confinement to opposing camps of each faction only serves to strengthen the divisions and accentuate the confrontation, as indeed would any so called “two state solution”.

There can be only one solution, a single and secular state in which a multi-cultural model obtains as elsewhere in the world, with all citizens being entitled to the same rights and freedoms and subject to the same obligations and responsibilities, regardless of where and whom they worship or don’t and regardless of politics and regardless of ethnicity.

Would this be an easy thing to accomplish? Not at all - there would be resistance from both sides and likely bloodshed once more. However there is bloodshed without end as things are, so the calculation must be as to a comparison rather than an absolute. This way at least, there should be an end in sight.

E




thishereboi -> RE: disproportionate, much? (12/31/2008 6:27:59 AM)

So this guy from Hamas thinks the Jews going after Palestine is comparable to the Nazis going after the Jews. Now that is one I hadn't heard before. Well Hitler made it clear that he wanted to exterminate the Jews and I have know the Iranian pres wants the same thing, but that doesn't make the Jews like the Nazi's now does it? That is the only thing I can think of that the two situations have in common. The Hamas will not be happy until the Jews have been eliminated and I am sorry but that is not how you make peace.





piratecommander -> RE: disproportionate, much? (12/31/2008 7:58:44 AM)

http://www.texasfishingforum.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/2954602/Re_Hamas_Was_Founded_by_Mossad




piratecommander -> RE: disproportionate, much? (12/31/2008 8:01:58 AM)

http://www.wariscrime.com/2008/12/29/news/hamas-was-founded-by-mossad/




MadAxeman -> RE: disproportionate, much? (12/31/2008 8:51:23 AM)

I didn't see Pirate ask for more dead Israelis.
His views are his, he didn't claim to represent English opinion.
Giraffe = a laugh or 'are you joking'
Latest guesstimates on body count are
500+ to 8
Hence the title of the thread I believe.






thishereboi -> RE: disproportionate, much? (12/31/2008 8:57:12 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MadAxeman

I didn't see Pirate ask for more dead Israelis.
His views are his, he didn't claim to represent English opinion.
Giraffe = a laugh or 'are you joking'
Latest guesstimates on body count are
500+ to 8
Hence the title of the thread I believe.





Well if it were me and I had lost 500+ and the guy I had been lobbing missiles had only lost 8. I would stop firing. But then again I wouldn't strap a bomb to a child so maybe I just don't understand them.




kdsub -> RE: disproportionate, much? (12/31/2008 9:05:37 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MadAxeman

I didn't see Pirate ask for more dead Israelis.
His views are his, he didn't claim to represent English opinion.
Giraffe = a laugh or 'are you joking'
Latest guesstimates on body count are
500+ to 8
Hence the title of the thread I believe.




So what would you have them do?...nothing...or..... build stronger rocket proof roofs for their kindergartens....I know... just politely ask them "Please… pretty please stop killing us"

I know send their sons and daughters into ambushes trying to stop the rockets on land... great idea...too many of those damn Jews anyway…lets make sure we have the same amount of deaths on both sides.

Hey even better shoot rockets back…but surround the rocket launchers with innocent Israelis citizens… then when Hamas shots back and kills children Israel can say back to the world…” See they kill our children”

Shit

Butch




MadAxeman -> RE: disproportionate, much? (12/31/2008 9:06:39 AM)

People who believe they have nothing to lose are not always easy to understand.




dudd -> RE: disproportionate, much? (12/31/2008 9:11:14 AM)

 
There`s like 270 plus dead Palestinians...

And 4 dead Israelis.

I`d say that is the definition of disproportionate.

Why is it again that the Israelis get a pass?




kdsub -> RE: disproportionate, much? (12/31/2008 9:17:32 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: dudd


There`s like 270 plus dead Palestinians...

And 4 dead Israelis.

I`d say that is the definition of disproportionate.

Why is it again that the Israelis get a pass?


Again ...please read two posts up




piratecommander -> RE: disproportionate, much? (12/31/2008 9:20:21 AM)

http://www.antiwar.com/orig/cook.php?articleid=9407
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/ottawa/story/2008/02/06/ot-von-kruedener-080206.html
http://www.payvand.com/news/08/dec/1322.html




LadyEllen -> RE: disproportionate, much? (12/31/2008 9:20:38 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi

So this guy from Hamas thinks the Jews going after Palestine is comparable to the Nazis going after the Jews. Now that is one I hadn't heard before. Well Hitler made it clear that he wanted to exterminate the Jews and I have know the Iranian pres wants the same thing, but that doesn't make the Jews like the Nazi's now does it? That is the only thing I can think of that the two situations have in common. The Hamas will not be happy until the Jews have been eliminated and I am sorry but that is not how you make peace.




So this is what you get from the thousand words of my post? I'd hate the idea that it was a reactionary response to the first paragraph alone and the rest wasnt considered, what with me having the only right mode of being, thinking, speaking and acting and all that; quite ironic in a way if it were.

E




piratecommander -> RE: disproportionate, much? (12/31/2008 9:27:55 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MadAxeman

I didn't see Pirate ask for more dead Israelis.
His views are his, he didn't claim to represent English opinion.
Giraffe = a laugh or 'are you joking'
Latest guesstimates on body count are
500+ to 8
Hence the title of the thread I believe.





I cant remember ever representing the English opinion Axeman ......
You're right about the dead Israeli's too . I can't remmenber ever asking for more dead in this war , from whichever side

Pirate

(thanks for the body count data)

[Mod Note:  namecalling removed]





Mercnbeth -> RE: disproportionate, much? (12/31/2008 9:39:04 AM)

A very disclosing interview Lady E.

Apparently the representative forgot that the stated policy of Hamas since 2000 is that the Holocaust never happened?
quote:

Hamas (the Islamic Resistance Movement) has recently published a denial of the Jewish Holocaust on its official website. Although Hamas often uses anti-Jewish phrases, this was the first time the organization has officially denied the Holocaust. Source: http://www.washingtoninstitute.org/templateC05.php?CID=1946 


quote:

The Hamas TV educational program, broadcast last week, taught that the murder of Jews in the Holocaust was a Zionist plot with two goals:
 1- To eliminate "disabled and handicapped" Jews by sending them to death camps, so they would not be a burden on the future state of Israel.


2- At the same time, the Holocaust served to make "the Jews seem persecuted" so they could "benefit from international sympathy."


 Amin Dabur, head of the Palestinian "Center for Strategic Research" explained that "the Israeli Holocaust - the whole thing was a joke, and part of the perfect show that [Zionist leader and future Israeli prime minister] Ben Gurion put on." The "young energetic and able" were sent to Israel, while the handicapped were sent "so there would be a Holocaust."
click here to see video http://www.opednews.com/articles/genera_itamar_m_080430_hamas_holocaust_perv.htm 


Of course I'm sure that the politically correct 'interviewer' would never point this out to the representative. Apparently it was the same type of 'interview' that you get during an 'info-mercial' selling a product. You would think that before making a comparison to something you should at the very least, accept that what you are comparing it to actually happened according to the group you represent. Unless of course the rationalization is that the Nazi treatment of the Jews in Germany was a simple inconvenience to them and not an attempt at genocide. However from that perspective the comparison still doesn't work.

I guess what you are really hoping for is that the target audience doesn't have the ability to read, or check (like the interviewer) past stated policy. That strategy seems to have worked in some cases. Funny how there is a general acceptance of projected behavior when its isolated. It falls apart however when the entire body of reference material is considered. 




kdsub -> RE: disproportionate, much? (12/31/2008 9:39:41 AM)

How about this;

Your Hamas… you want to destroy Israel…you DO NOT want peace. The American President has fallen into your trap. World opinion is now on your side...support for Israel is waning in America…you can taste the blood of the Zionists. 

Then all of a sudden a new President emerges in America…One that is changing world opinion….One that has pledged to seriously work for an honorable peace.

You are afraid he will expose you for what you are…. and you will loose the support of the world…What can you do!!!!!!

Then it comes to you…lets throw some missiles at the Zionists… the response will hopefully start a war… maybe with Hezbullha joining in along with other Arab nations. Hell we could destroy the Zionists outright but if not the response will throw the Middle East into turmoil and negate the possibility of peace with the new American devil of a President.

Butch




piratecommander -> RE: disproportionate, much? (12/31/2008 9:42:35 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: MadAxeman

People who believe they have nothing to lose are not always easy to understand.


Perhaps I have less to lose than I thought ?

(judging by the responses so far .... ) [sm=modxiiswatching.gif]

Pirate




MadAxeman -> RE: disproportionate, much? (12/31/2008 9:53:43 AM)

Only hair mate




piratecommander -> RE: disproportionate, much? (12/31/2008 10:04:52 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

How about this;

Your Hamas… you want to destroy Israel



Errr , If you're Hamas ......... surely Israel does not exist ?

(If I'm causing offence , it's only to those who seek to be offended , glad to be able to help)

Given that Israel founded Hamas , Isn't Israel in a very difficult position (some might say denial) over having created it ?




piratecommander -> RE: disproportionate, much? (12/31/2008 10:20:59 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MadAxeman

Only hair mate


Yes , but if I grow my hair , people will stop thinking I'm a racist and then I won't be able to catch them out so easily and expose their ignorance and predjudice to the entire "uncivilised" world anywhere near as easily

(hold on .... did anyone hear the sound of a penny dropping ?)

Any fascists out there wanting a good lambasting ? or are you all hiding behind a pile of bullshit ?

Pirate





ArticMaestro -> RE: disproportionate, much? (12/31/2008 10:36:17 AM)

So basically pirate you are agreeing with a plethora of Conspiricy web sites, reprinting the exact same story, that because Isreal allowed the locals to build hospitals and orphanages in the 70s, and did not kill a guy who had not done anything wrong yet, they created Hamas....Those Isrealis even let them build Mosques in Gaza, what monsters...

Would it follow then that you think Isreal should destroy all the hospitals, orphanges, social services and Mosques in Gaza, as wll as deny any foriegn assistance of money or food/medicine to the Gaza?   Since that is equal to creating Hamas

Heck they even let the guy go in a negotiated prisioner exchange, so are we to assume that once caught no Palestinian should ever be released from Isreali custody?

Posting stuff like that does show your colors.





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