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RE: Gaza/Israel situation - 1/13/2009 7:39:11 PM

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So, as I understand the comments here by some, ....Israel has no right of self defense? Hamas has the "right" to send thousands of rockets into Israel,killing woman and children, and Israel is supposed to turn the other cheek? Civilians in Gaza being hurt or killed and this is horrible but they are killed because the IDF responds to mortor or rocket attacks by destroying the source. When you are in a fire fight you respond with deadly force before you are made dead...and you don't go out to check the demographics. Are you telling me that Hamas using civilians as shield as so many people have discussed absolves them of any responsibility.
The people of Gaza voted for Hamas, a terrorist organization, and are reaping the whirlwind. Almost every day innocent women and children are killed by terrorists blowing themselves up in markets in Iraq...no outrage??? Is it because the bombers are doing the work of Allah?

< Message edited by corysub -- 1/13/2009 7:40:51 PM >

(in reply to djgr75)

RE: Gaza/Israel situation - 1/13/2009 8:04:19 PM

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Nope Cory it is because Isreal and Iraq (along with Georgia and Tibet) are allies of America. Far more people are being brutally killed in the Congo right now. More in Sudan. These pople do not care. The numbers of dead civilians mean nothing, unless it fits thier agenda, then it is a very big deal.

(in reply to corysub)

RE: Gaza/Israel situation - 1/14/2009 2:06:34 AM

ArizonaSunSwitch

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ArticMaestro

Nope Cory it is because Isreal and Iraq (along with Georgia and Tibet) are allies of America. Far more people are being brutally killed in the Congo right now. More in Sudan. These pople do not care. The numbers of dead civilians mean nothing, unless it fits thier agenda, then it is a very big deal.

No it doesn't matter when a leftist regime kills unarmed civilians, *that's* why the Congo, Sudan, etc, & whatever doesn't matter. It's only a crime when a free society's military kills well armed opponents.

(in reply to ArticMaestro)

RE: Gaza/Israel situation - 1/14/2009 8:58:18 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ArticMaestro

What sort of Backlash, kained? Being denounced in the media? They already are...You are pretending they are doing that.

Why the need for all the wild rhetoric kained? Carpet bombing, Chemical weopons, maximum damage on Civilians, ect. Falsely claiming legitimate media?

Other than an agenda on your part, why make up stuff like that?

A bigger international backlash, I mean.

What is it you think I'm making up? I've posted lots of links, and google is at your service.

(in reply to ArticMaestro)

RE: Gaza/Israel situation - 1/14/2009 9:02:41 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: corysub

So, as I understand the comments here by some, ....Israel has no right of self defense? Hamas has the "right" to send thousands of rockets into Israel,killing woman and children, and Israel is supposed to turn the other cheek?

Putting words into peoples mouths isn't a very effective debating tactic.

quote:

civilians in Gaza being hurt or killed and this is horrible but they are killed because the IDF responds to mortor or rocket attacks by destroying the source. When you are in a fire fight you respond with deadly force before you are made dead...and you don't go out to check the demographics. Are you telling me that Hamas using civilians as shield as so many people have discussed absolves them of any responsibility.

I've yet to see any substantial proof that Hamas use human shields. At this point its simply a claim by the IDF.

quote:

The people of Gaza voted for Hamas, a terrorist organization, and are reaping the whirlwind.

By this logic, any attack on American civilians is justified because the American people elected Bush twice. Which is why you can't be taken seriously.

(in reply to corysub)

RE: Gaza/Israel situation - 1/14/2009 9:15:25 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: KaineD

quote:

civilians in Gaza being hurt or killed and this is horrible but they are killed because the IDF responds to mortor or rocket attacks by destroying the source. When you are in a fire fight you respond with deadly force before you are made dead...and you don't go out to check the demographics. Are you telling me that Hamas using civilians as shield as so many people have discussed absolves them of any responsibility.

I've yet to see any substantial proof that Hamas use human shields. At this point its simply a claim by the IDF.

Do you deny that Hamas launches rockets from civilain neighborhoods?

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RE: Gaza/Israel situation - 1/14/2009 9:28:30 AM

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What sort of backlash? You made the claim, that they were trying to inflict maximum civilian casualties. Now you admit that is false but say they want to, but can't because of a media backlash? That makes no sense at all. You falsely claimed that Phosphourus is illegal, its not, your own link stated so. You made up your own definition of Carpet bombing, not even remotely close to what is occuring...

Those things are false....Why do you insist in pretending they are true?

Go back to the beginging of the thread. Your links say Hamas was tunnelling into Isreal, and shooting rockets. The Isrealis responded with an incursion (placing their own soldiers at risk), killing militants. Hamas declared the truce over and started a massive rocket barrage on Civilians. Thats from your link. And you see that as Isreal breaking the Cease fire. How?

(in reply to Hippiekinkster)

RE: Gaza/Israel situation - 1/14/2009 9:32:24 AM

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This is a fast reply... so stating that I have not seen any other postings, I am just blipping in and out with my

.

The Israelis and Hamas situation is a tough one.

Israel has been at odds with the very staunch Iranian govt over a lot of differances in the middle east. Israelis are what the Iranians call Zionists. They are a jewish ran govt. That just irks the shit out of Iran since they are a very Muslim based and run country. Hell they beat up on who they consider to be "muslim lite" little alone a country that is not muslim.

A few years back Iran funded and aided a group of rebels.... this would be the Hamas, to take over part of the Israelis territory and basicaly stir the shit pot. They have provided them with arms, and training... usually under the Eqyptian border and other porus borders.

The Hamas are just pawns in this really. They had a cause, they wanted to be able to worship as they chose, and to be autonomus. Can't blame them for that. However with Iran meddling ( as they are want to do...) it is very hard to broker any peace deals. ~ Besides this is the middle east folks. It has been in turmoil from the begining.

They wouldnt know how to play nice if you gave them a text book on it.

Gwyn

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(in reply to Hippiekinkster)

RE: Gaza/Israel situation - 1/14/2009 10:07:35 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster

I've yet to see any substantial proof that Hamas use human shields. At this point its simply a claim by the IDF.

Do you deny that Hamas launches rockets from civilain neighborhoods?

I think thats playing loose with the defination of "human shields". Did you know that the Gaza strip is one of the most densely populated places in the world?

(in reply to Hippiekinkster)

RE: Gaza/Israel situation - 1/14/2009 10:17:13 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ArticMaestro

What sort of backlash? You made the claim, that they were trying to inflict maximum civilian casualties. Now you admit that is false but say they want to, but can't because of a media backlash? That makes no sense at all.

No, you're purposefully misinterpreting what I'm saying and getting yourself confused in the process. The Israel/Gaza conflict is as much a propeganda war as anything else. Why else do you think Israel are blocking media from entering? As it is, Israel are getting heavily criticized of members of the UN. If Israel were doing much more full scale damage, even the US would have no choice but to criticize Israel.

quote:

You falsely claimed that Phosphourus is illegal, its not, your own link stated so. You made up your own definition of Carpet bombing, not even remotely close to what is occuring...

White phosphorus is illegal to use against civilians, which Israel is doing. Do you deny that depleted uranium and white phosphorus are chemical weapons?

http://www.answers.com/topicccc/carpet-bombing

quote:

Those things are false....Why do you insist in pretending they are true?

It's not my fault that you're not reading up fully on these issues.

quote:

Go back to the beginging of the thread. Your links say Hamas was tunnelling into Isreal, and shooting rockets. The Isrealis responded with an incursion (placing their own soldiers at risk), killing militants. Hamas declared the truce over and started a massive rocket barrage on Civilians. Thats from your link. And you see that as Isreal breaking the Cease fire. How?

You should try reading the whole link.

http://bbsnews.net/article.php/20090101212318310

"Western press in light of the most recent assault on Gaza seem to have forgotten who broke the truce and are erroneously attributing the end of the ceasefire to either rockets and or the expiration of the original agreement.
Hagada Hasmalit provided an analysis of of articles describing the breakdown of the ceasefire and who was responsible and also took the New York Times to task for the devolving reportage during this most recent spate of violence. Viewing the timeline of news reporting from November 4-15, 2008 it becomes crystal clear that Israel broke the ceasefire."

(in reply to ArticMaestro)

RE: Gaza/Israel situation - 1/14/2009 10:25:12 AM

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http://newspirates.com/?p=2450

The Israeil Human Sheild DeceptionThe notion does not lose currency, even as the death toll climbs. By yesterday, the war in Gaza had left at least 905 Palestinians dead, a little less than half of whom were civilians.

Still, in the view of Israeli leaders, diplomats and spokesmen, Hamas is to blame for the carnage, even though the bodies of the civilians may be pocked with wounds meted out by Israeli bombs, artillery and bullets. The slain non-combatants, they say repeatedly, have been used by Hamas as “human shields”.

Under international humanitarian law, the definition of a “human shield” is quite specific: parties to a conflict are prohibited from using civilians to shield military objectives or military operations from attack.

A recent study by the International Committee for the Red Cross, the widely recognised arbiter over questions related to the laws of war and war crimes, said the use of human shields generally involves cases “where persons were actually taken to military objectives in order to shield those objectives from attack,” with the individuals often held against their will.

As in previous wars, Israel has used the term “human shield” more loosely during its current operation in the Gaza Strip, which today enters its 18th day.

In the deaths of at least 39 Palestinians at the UN’s Al Fakhoura school last week, it was a default position, apparently designed to blunt criticism that its forces were acting too cavalierly towards civilians in Gaza. Justifying Israel’s attack on the school, Israeli officials at first claimed that their fighters were responding to mortar fire from that location.

Then the spokesman for the UN relief agency in Gaza, Christopher Gunness, said the organisation was “99.9 per cent certain” that there had been no militants or militant activity within the school compound. The agency also said that all its schools and other facilities were clearly marked and that their locations had been provided to the Israel Defense Forces.

Mark Regev, the chief spokesman for Ehud Olmert, the Israeli prime minister, replied that Hamas was responsible for the deaths because it had used the civilians as “human shields” to try to make their own positions immune from attack. Mr Regev offered no evidence that Hamas fighters had forced Gazan civilians at gunpoint to provide cover for their attacks or protection from retaliation.

While actual proof that Hamas is using human shields appears to be lacking in this incident and others, the repeated accusation by Israel helps buy time and dilutes international pressure for a ceasefire.

It also preserves the reputation of the IDF, which has been frequently praised by the country’s leaders as the “most moral” military force in the world. Further, it panders to the widely held view in Europe, the United States and elsewhere that Islamists of any stripe are life-hating nihilists.

For the truth in that, assume hypothetically that a Hamas or Hizbollah missile struck Israeli military headquarters, the Kirya. The compound is located in downtown Tel Aviv, surrounded by commercial and residential buildings. In all likelihood hundreds, if not thousands, of civilians would be killed.

It is highly unlikely that saying they never targeted civilians would spare Hamas or Hizbollah international condemnation. It also seems unlikely that Israel or its allies would blame the IDF for the bloodshed, saying it had effectively used the people of the neighbourhood as “human shields”.

Their reproaches of Hamas and other Palestinian militants aside, Israeli political and military officials are well aware of the issues surrounding the use of “human shields”.In 2005, Israel’s Supreme Court barred the IDF from using Palestinians as human shields, which had been a common practice.

The IDF euphemistically dubbed the procedure of forcing Palestinian civilians at gunpoint to go before them into buildings from which they feared attack its “neighbour procedure”. (“The idea is that a person is going in to warn people inside and explain the situation,” army spokesman Capt Jacob Dallal said at the time. “It’s done for the safety of everyone.”)

Despite the court ruling, the practice has continued, according to Israeli and international human rights groups. Amnesty International said last week that Israeli soldiers were taking over Palestinian homes in Gaza and using the homes as military observation and firing positions, effectively using their imprisoned occupants as “human shields”.

< Message edited by KaineD -- 1/14/2009 10:30:52 AM >

(in reply to KaineD)

RE: Gaza/Israel situation - 1/14/2009 11:15:48 AM

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http://www.answers.com/topicccc/carpet-bombing
There is no information on this page, are you just hoping people will not look. Not a relevant word. Its a list of places to buy carpet.

You made the false claim.

Using phospourus to light a battlefield is not using as a weopon. Phospourus bombs are illegal. No evidence at all of it being used that way. You made the ridiculous claim that tracer rounds to light the sky is the same as Saddam gassing civilain villages with VX. Get real. Why do you have to make up stuff to make your point?   Quassam rockets have chemicals in them also, wouldn't that mean that Hamas is using Chemical weopons also? Or do you use some wierd double standard?

Yes the BBS, which you falsely claimed as the BBC, and never admitted to it. An agenda driven web site. Devoted to "Progressive liberal views" (thier own words). I see why you want to pretend it is a real news site.   As you state this is a propaganda war, and you are a combatant. Why?

"It is highly unlikely that saying they never targeted civilians would spare Hamas or Hizbollah international condemnation." true, it would also be 100% false.

I am sure that Newspirates is a very respected unbiased source of information <ROTLMAO>. But when I read that I wonder why it says "hman shield" has a specific legal definition, doesn't give it , but instead goes into some sort of "according to the Red Cross human shields are Generally...". Why not give the actuall definiton? Must be a reason...Oh yeah its a propaganda war.

Your BBS site cuts out, but all of its links include the why as to Isreal crossing into Gaza, in a pinpoint on the ground operation. Hamas was tunnelling under the border.

You support the right of Hamas to tunnell into Isreal, and to fire rockets.   Why? Hamas clearly caused that incident, Isreal responded ina precise way, hurting no civilians. Hamas responded with a massive barrage of rockets at civilian towns. That's what your links say. You should read them.

(in reply to KaineD)

RE: Gaza/Israel situation - 1/14/2009 11:52:16 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ArticMaestro

http://www.answers.com/topicccc/carpet-bombing
There is no information on this page, are you just hoping people will not look. Not a relevant word. Its a list of places to buy carpet.

Oh for God sake. I messed up the link, but for God sake man, learn how to use google.

http://www.answers.com/topic/carpet-bombing

quote:

You made the false claim.

Using phospourus to light a battlefield is not using as a weopon. Phospourus bombs are illegal. No evidence at all of it being used that way.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article5512203.ece

Israeli officials continued to deny that the army was using illegal weapons in its Gaza offensive despite accounts by soldiers that tanks with white phosphorus shells were deployed.
One soldier sent to Gaza recently said that he had handled phosphorus grenades and that tanks equipped with white phosphorus shells were in operation. “We’ve been using it responsibly . . . it’s been around the whole time,” he said.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/01/12/world/main4714068.shtml?source=RSSattr=HOME_4714068

(CBS/AP) Human Rights Watch said Sunday that Israel's military has fired artillery shells with the incendiary agent white phosphorus into Gaza and a doctor there said the chemical was suspected in the case of 10 burn victims who had skin peeling off their faces and bodies.

Researchers in Israel from the rights group witnessed hours of artillery bombardments that sent trails of burning smoke indicating white phosphorus over the Jebaliya refugee camp in northern Gaza. But they could not confirm injuries on the ground because they have been barred from entering the territory.

Why should I have any reason to take you seriously when you continiously display a complete lack of interest in actually researching this subject, and reading links I provide you?

(in reply to ArticMaestro)

RE: Gaza/Israel situation - 1/14/2009 12:10:58 PM

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I have read every link you posted, wish you would do the same.

Carpet bombing. Show evidence that Isreal is engaging in it. you can't. You made it up. You posted some definitions this time, but none apply to what is occuring

I did make a small error. Phospuorus is also allowed to be used as smoke bombs, which is what the Isrealis are using it for, as well as illumination. Totally legal.

Neither compares to your ridiculous claim that it is the same as using Chemical weopons on Civilians, ala Saddam Hussein.

Why do you have to keep making his stuff up, and using ridiculous sources? The truth doesn't fit your agenda? Some other reason?

So to sum it up, you support Hamas' right to tunnell into Isreal...and consider that to be part of adhering to the cease fire.

Every link you pointed out says that the Isrealis responded with the border crossing, only harming Hamas militants. Everyone of them. Yet you keep insisting that Isreal broke the cease fire. If there were not lives at stake it would be funny.

(in reply to KaineD)

RE: Gaza/Israel situation - 1/14/2009 12:40:17 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ArticMaestro

I have read every link you posted, wish you would do the same.

Carpet bombing. Show evidence that Isreal is engaging in it. you can't. You made it up. You posted some definitions this time, but none apply to what is occuring

The definition I supplied you...

To bomb in a systematic and extensive pattern, so as to devastate a large target area uniformly.

How would you describe the bombing of Gaza?

quote:

I did make a small error. Phospuorus is also allowed to be used as smoke bombs, which is what the Isrealis are using it for, as well as illumination. Totally legal.

What about the accounts of Israeli shoulders that say they are using phosphorus shells?

Are you saying you know better than the Human Rights Watch, who say Israel has fired artillery shells with white phosphorus?

quote:

Neither compares to your ridiculous claim that it is the same as using Chemical weopons on Civilians, ala Saddam Hussein.

The white phosphorus shells are being used in civilian areas, ]they are being used on civilians.

quote:

Why do you have to keep making his stuff up, and using ridiculous sources? The truth doesn't fit your agenda? Some other reason?

Yeah, CBS, Timesonline, and BBC sure are some ridiculous news sources.

So, how about CNN?

http://edition.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/meast/01/12/white.phosphorus/index.html?iref=newssearch

HRW said the use of white phosphorus in Gaza would violate "the requirement under international humanitarian law to take all feasible precautions to avoid civilian injury and loss of life."

Stop moving the goal posts.

quote:

So to sum it up, you support Hamas' right to tunnell into Isreal...and consider that to be part of adhering to the cease fire.

Every link you pointed out says that the Isrealis responded with the border crossing, only harming Hamas militants. Everyone of them. Yet you keep insisting that Isreal broke the cease fire. If there were not lives at stake it would be funny.

Okay. Let's go through the link. Again.

http://bbsnews.net/article.php/20090101212318310

BBSNews 2009-01-01 -- By Michael Hess. Western press have recently and erroneously reported that Hamas broke a six month ceasefire even as most reported in November 2008 that Israel itself first broke the informal truce. In recent days Prime Minister Olmert has tied the end of the current attacks by Israel on Gaza to an international "monitoring" force to ensure that Hamas meets terms of a new ceasefire. Some of the early pre-strike tactics have been questioned by officials, and it is unlikely this latest conflict will resolve anything because it does not address the root cause, the ongoing occupations.

In this decades long occupation of Gaza, the West Bank and East Jerusalem there have been many lulls that lapse into tit for tat violence and then creep back into lulls again.

In the most recent case, Hamas and Israel came to an informal agreement in June 2008 where Hamas would halt rocket fire and reign in various militant factions in the Strip while at the same time opening border crossings. Instead, Hamas largely kept the ceasefire and the crossings never opened except for the most sporadic of instances and the humanitarian crisis deepened in Gaza.

You see that? The crossing never opened except for the most sporadic of instances. I'll continue...

Western press in light of the most recent assault on Gaza seem to have forgotten who broke the truce and are erroneously attributing the end of the ceasefire to either rockets and or the expiration of the original agreement.

Hagada Hasmalit provided an analysis of of articles describing the breakdown of the ceasefire and who was responsible and also took the New York Times to task for the devolving reportage during this most recent spate of violence. Viewing the timeline of news reporting from November 4-15, 2008 it becomes crystal clear that Israel broke the ceasefire.

In one of the first stories on the breakdown of the ceasefire the Independent posted a story entitled 'Massive' rocket attack launched on Israel and reported the following:

"Hamas militants in the Gaza Strip fired more than 35 rockets towards Israel today, the army and the Islamist group said, hours after the Israeli army killed six militants in the coastal territory.

An Israeli police spokesman said the rockets landed in southern Israel, causing no damage or injuries.
Hamas claimed responsibility for the attacks, the first such announcement by the Islamist group since an Egyptian-brokered ceasefire with Israel went into effect on June 19."

I think that's what's causing you confusion.

The Guardian headline read Hamas fires rockets after Israel kills six in Gaza and they reported:

"Hamas militants fired more than 35 rockets into Israel today, hours after the Israeli army killed six people in the Gaza Strip in the first major exchange of fire since a truce took effect in June."

The Times reported Six die in Israeli attack over Hamas 'tunnel under border to kidnap soldier':

"A five-month truce between Israel and the Islamist rulers of the Gaza Strip was foundering yesterday after Israeli special forces entered the besieged territory and fought Hamas militants, leaving six Palestinian fighters dead and four Israeli soldiers wounded."

Yedioth also covered the breakdown of the ceasefire in a piece headlined IDF leaves Gaza after op, 6 gunmen killed:

"For the first time since the ceasefire took effect in June, IDF forces operated deep in the Gaza Strip Tuesday night in a bid to collapse a tunnel located 250 meters (273 yards) from the border – and which terror groups intended to use for kidnapping Israeli soldiers."

Haaretz reported the story with a headline entitled IDF kills Hamas man in Gaza clash:

"Israel Defense Forces troops yesterday killed a Hamas gunman and wounded two others in the first armed clash in the Gaza Strip since a cease-fire was declared there in June ... Since the cease-fire, the IDF has launched frequent raids across the fence, albeit smaller in scale. The IDF is apparently interested in keeping these incursions low-profile, and they receive little attention in the Israeli media. Additionally, raids tend to be limited to addressing 'immediate threats,' as defined by the IDF."

Ah, so Israel were continuing frequent raids during the ceasefire. So the Israeli claim that the ceasefire was under thrreat when Hamas supposedly were going to kidnap soldiers isn't the whole story.

The New York Times weighed in during mid-December with this article Deadly Gaza Border Clash Threatens Truce:

"At least six Palestinian militants were killed in a clash and an Israeli airstrike on Nov. 4 after an Israeli force entered Gaza for the first time in five months to destroy a tunnel Israel said it believed was intended for use in the abduction of soldiers."

And again two days later with this piece Hamas Fires Rockets Into Israel:

"The confrontations, following five months of relative calm, began to spike this month when the Israeli military destroyed a tunnel being dug toward Israel ... The Israelis said it was an isolated operation, not a violation of the cease-fire agreed to in June, and asked Egypt to pass that message to Hamas in advance. But six Hamas militants were killed during the tunnel’s destruction, leading Hamas to retaliate with rockets, which led to more closings and operations and then more rockets."

Also in the same link,

UN evidence that there was a semi-official lull
An AP story said "Karen Abu Zayd, commissioner of the U.N. Relief and Works Agency (UNRWA) which helps Palestinian refugees, raised the possible violation of an informal truce in a video press conference with U.N. reporters from her base in Gaza."

"'What we understood here (was) that there was a 48-hour lull to be called, and this was called by the Israelis,' Abu Zayd said. 'They said they would wait 48 hours. That was on Friday morning, I believe, until Sunday morning, and that they were going to evaluate.'"

Another link that says it was Israel that broke the ceasefire.

http://mathaba.net/news/?x=615497

CNN says Israel broke the ceasefire.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KntmpoRXFX4

(in reply to ArticMaestro)

RE: Gaza/Israel situation - 1/14/2009 1:35:23 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster

I've yet to see any substantial proof that Hamas use human shields. At this point its simply a claim by the IDF.

Do you deny that Hamas launches rockets from civilain neighborhoods?

quote:

ORIGINAL: KaineD

I think thats playing loose with the defination of "human shields". Did you know that the Gaza strip is one of the most densely populated places in the world?

So that makes it ok to launch rockets from there? And no one is supposed to do anything about it?

< Message edited by thishereboi -- 1/14/2009 1:37:22 PM >

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(in reply to KaineD)

RE: Gaza/Israel situation - 1/14/2009 1:49:12 PM

ArizonaSunSwitch

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quote:

ORIGINAL: KaineD

quote:

Want to back that one up ?
Willie Pete and DU are used , We use DU because of the density and mass.
and if the palies dont want to eat DU and W/p they can leave the juice alone and problem will be solved.

"Leave the juice alone"? What does that even mean?

I had read on some articles somewhere that white phosphorus and depleted uranium were illegal under international law. It's possible I've got that one wrong as I've seen other articles that say they're not, but that WP is restricted in its use against civilians, and DU is very frowned upon, being a chemical weapon and all, and there are only a few nations that use it, and Saddam Hussein was criticized for its use.

It just seems to me that if the IDF are using chemical weapons, then they aren't as interested in avoiding unnecassary civilian suffering as they claim to be.

DU isn't a chemical weapon, it's an extremely dense metal which is a useful attribute for projectiles (particularly against tanks or other hardened targets). Phosphorus burns. Not everything that is designed to cause human injury and death is a "chemical" weapon.

Saddam Hussein was criticised for gassing thousands of his own citizens. He couldn't gas them with DU or Phosphorus as neither is a gas to begin with and strafing them with DU or fire bombing them with phosphorus would of cost too much anyway. Life is cheap when you're ruled by a tyrant.

(in reply to KaineD)

RE: Gaza/Israel situation - 1/14/2009 1:53:19 PM

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Lets not forget..it isn't terrorists vs ISrael anymore.
This is a new situation....which personally..to me..allows Israel tot attack.
Hamas is elected by the people of GAza..therefor representing them. It is now country vs country. Actually full war..no matter how small Gaza is.
(and NO..I don't say I approve about killing civillians on both sides)

(in reply to ArizonaSunSwitch)

RE: Gaza/Israel situation - 1/14/2009 2:07:33 PM

ArizonaSunSwitch

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quote:

ORIGINAL: beargonewild

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin

Just out of interest, what if Israel had not been located in Palestine, what if the refugees from Europe had been given land elsewhere, say the US, and as this new country grew, it required more land, what would be the response of the US inhabitants, if they were falling prey to land grabs by another country ?

I'd bet my soul that this scenario would play out almost exactly to what is happening in the Middle East.

Yes, because Native Americans on reservations all over the country are tossing rockets at US civilians as we speak.

They *are* in the same situation, they are a country within a country and dependent on the United States. There are at least two differences, 1). They aren't Islamic and therefore they don't feel the need to be at war 24/7 with any neighbour not already under islamic law. 2). They know we'd kick their asses if they attempted any of that bullshit (and that would only require the FBI, much less our military).

Israel hasn't *grown* it took land that was of strategic value to the enemy during a war *it did not start*. It gave a bunch of that land back recently and that show of weakness has had the predictable effect.

(in reply to beargonewild)

RE: Gaza/Israel situation - 1/14/2009 2:08:01 PM

Posts: 497
Joined: 2/14/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi
Do you deny that Hamas launches rockets from civilain neighborhoods?

That isn't what the definition of "human shields" is.

quote:

So that makes it ok to launch rockets from there? And no one is supposed to do anything about it?

Of course not. Why is it only one extreme or the other? Either Israel ignores Hamas or they level neighbourhoods to the ground? They're not the only options on the table.

(in reply to thishereboi)

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