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RE: breathplay - 1/23/2009 9:51:44 AM   
angelikaJ


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BLGirl

quote:

ORIGINAL: switch2please

How would one go about safe breathplay?
I have both given and received, both with a switch and we had a very high level of trust.
To experiment with breathplay with a new partner, there any precautions - besides trust, obviously - that can be taken?
Thank you :)







Daddy and I enjoy breath play, although really it is more like blood flow play. My trachea was crushed several years ago, therefore, I can only have hands on the sides now cutting off blood flow. As everyone else has stated, there is no safe breath play and there are risks associated with all of it, but as consenting adults we try to be intelligent about our actions and aware of the dangers. I have been assaulted and was choked out many years ago, this is a totally different sensation, reaction, and ultimate satisfaction.
In short, be aware and thoughtful in your actions, never take for granted that this is like any other time, and always listen to one another. Lastly, enjoy!
 
Cautioningly,
BLGirl


You do understand the risks specific to that type of play?
(see post # 11)

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RE: breathplay - 1/30/2009 7:05:26 PM   
hedonist


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Just a few points:
  • It is very dangerous and this has been noted by others.  When learning to kill someone, the fragile throat is a choice location for a blow to take a victim out.  It is very easy to injure someone or render them unconscious.
  • Try this, open mouth kissing.  You pinch your "victims" nose and feed the air to breath.  You control their consumption of secondary air from you lungs.  You breath in and pass a breath. It is very erotic produces similar response and can be done without injury.
Toodles

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RE: breathplay - 1/31/2009 11:36:21 PM   
DreamyLadySnow


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If you have plaque in your arteries (and most north americans over the age of 30 do) pressure on the carotid can dislodge it, sending it to the brain - instant stroke. No way to know. Only way to prevent is ..well... the obvious. There are other ways to do breath play, such as a gas mask.

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RE: breathplay - 2/5/2009 6:26:00 PM   
ladycirce


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never EVER do it with anyone under the influence.
and it also has been mentioned that you be well versed in CPR.

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RE: breathplay - 2/6/2009 3:50:41 PM   
Zechriel


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Good evening!
  I love it!!!But thank goodness Daddy knows what he is doing cause i am still learning and the replies so far have been great. Daddy pinches my nose or pulls me into his chest or arm. Sometimes but not  often he will wrap his hand around my throat but only squeeze the front of my neck. Lately though, I think he is learning online a bit cause he will stroke that bump in the middle of my neck and then gently push it, only for a few seconds though. (Like with the crop he seems to get better and more focused each time we play, like he said "trying to hit the same spot more than once") Only once have we ever lost consciousness and that was when he wrapped a belt around my neck but forgot that I had a corded choker on under it and I passed out. He said no more playing with things around my neck, only hands. And never again will be let me pass out, I will always be awake when we play this way. Super super slow and take things easy. Good luck!
Love,
Zechriel 


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RE: breathplay - 2/7/2009 5:33:41 AM   
subbisherri


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Hate it hate it hate it. Had an absolutely horrible experience some time ago, largely my fault due to inexperience and an inflated sense of my own personal strengths. Years later, a very experienced man forced me to confront my fears about it. I detest him for making me do that, I adore him for making me do that. I still hate the idea of breath play, but at least now I don't flee screaming from the thought and I can watch others enjoy it without freaking.
Just be careful?

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RE: breathplay - 2/7/2009 5:39:48 AM   
bamagirl4u


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I have never experienced it and after reading most of the posts...I don't wanna...sounds too dangerous and would completely ruin any fun for me...I like oxygen...play safe!  Please!!

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RE: breathplay - 2/7/2009 5:51:40 AM   
DesFIP


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Now that the risks have been fully discussed I would like to add one more thing. We've done a little very light breathplay and what I discovered is that it isn't breathplay that is so exciting, it's him playing with my neck. I'm just as turned on if he takes a firm hold of the back of my neck as if he wraps his hand tightly around my throat. I'm incredible turned on by his teeth in the side of my neck, YUM! Him coming up behind me, wrapping his forearm around my neck and dragging me back to him.

Having learned this, we've dropped any breathplay and just do safe neck play.

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RE: breathplay - 4/5/2009 9:13:26 PM   
DrSadistic


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You will get many replies with many opinons. No doctor is going to openly advise doing this, but the risk is usually very low, but still possilbe and grave. You would have to have bad luck to have something go wrong, and usually have someone predisposed to dysrhythmias.

As some have stated on here, compression of the neck can also compress the vagus nerve that partially controls the heart. The heart beats at about 100 beats per minute. If a heart is transplanted, that is its rate because it is not under neural control. However, in a normal person, two nerves can alter its rate. The vagus being the one that lowers the heart rate. If compressed enough, it will lower the heart rate. This is the case in "shell shock" where presure on the chest from a huge sound wave lowers the heart rate and blood pressure lowers to the point the person passes out. All of this is not dangerous UNLESS the heart begins to beat without normal rhythem. This becomes more of a possibility the slower the heart beats, so you can see the connection. Again, you would have to have bad luck to have this happen in the average person.

The brain oxigen issue should not be an issue unless extended in time, or the heart stops.

We all take risks everyday, and some needlessly. For example, a hit to the chest can kill you. An elbow, a baseball, etc. However, it has to be over the ventricle, and at a specific time (window of 3%). The odds are low, but teens die from it every year.

So, it is a risk, but a low one. I cannot advise you to take or not take any risk. If you want to lower the risk. use moderation. If you want to lower them more, keep an automated defibrilator by the bed :P

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RE: breathplay - 4/6/2009 4:39:22 AM   
shorn


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Totally dangerous and probably very stupid.

i love it. we try to be as safe as possible but know it is not the brightest thing we do.

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The thought of it staggered my mind and struck me with a wave of envious desire. To be in such a situation, bought for the night, available to anyone at the crook of a finger!

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RE: breathplay - 4/6/2009 10:15:01 PM   
Siouxzie3333


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Is it SVT you suffer from? My 22 year old child had to have 3 electrophysiological study surgeries where she had her heart electrical pathways frozen and burned. Only then did she find relief from unexpected rates in the 240-260 range...her condition was not life-threatening though, it just caused debilitation and dizziness, a feeling of passing out. Hope you can get it fixed....

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RE: breathplay - 8/19/2009 7:35:03 PM   
DavanKael


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The reviving of old threads often irks me but I actually have been pondering this practice related to chokes commonly used in martial arts classes. 
I have been taking jiu jitsu/MMA classes for a few months and very early on, one learns both breath chokes and blood/carotid chokes.  I've been a lot closer to losing consciousness in class than I've ever been from breathplay with a partner...I am also stubborn and do not like to tap, even when it's just practice. 
I've talked with a couple of people who are martial arts based but, as far as I can ascertain when I explain my query, haven't utilized the activities for fun grown-up purposes and each of the really experienced people I've spoken with is of the perception that I am over-emphasizing the danger.  They also seem to think that the throat-based chokes are more dangerous than the arterial-chokes, which is totally contrary to everything I have ever seen discussed on the matter in bdsm circles. 
I have forwarded the wikipedia article on the carotid sinus reflex death to one for review and comment. 
I'm curious, though, from anyone with a martial arts background, what's your perception of these things as someone who is also kink-based? 
  Davan

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RE: breathplay - 8/22/2009 9:39:53 AM   
Scotty306134


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I posted this on another breathplay thread. Suppose it'd be good to post here too 









This is an article about breathplay from Jay Wiseman quoted on another site. Hope it helps with Your decision.

The Medical Realities of Breath Control Play

Copyright 1997 by Jay Wiseman, author of "SM 101: A Realistic Introduction". All rights reserved.

For some time now, I have felt that the practices of suffocation and/or strangulation done in an erotic context (generically known as breath control play; more properly known as asphyxiophilia) were in fact far more dangerous than they are generally perceived to be.

As a person with years of medical education and experience, I know of no way whatsoever that either suffocation or strangulation can be done in a way that does not intrinsically put the recipient at risk of cardiac arrest. (There are also numerous additional risks; more on them later.)

Furthermore, and my biggest concern, I know of no reliable way to determine when such a cardiac arrest has become imminent.

Often the first detectable sign that an arrest is approaching is the arrest itself. Furthermore, if the recipient does arrest, the probability of resuscitating them, even with optimal CPR, is distinctly small. Thus the recipient is dead and their partner, if any, is in a very perilous legal situation. (The authorities could consider such deaths first-degree murders until proven otherwise, with the burden of such proof being on the defendant). There are also the real and major concerns of the surviving partner's own life-long remorse to having caused such a death, and the trauma to the friends and family members of both parties.

Some breath control fans say that what they do is acceptably safe because they do not take what they do up to the point of unconsciousness. I find this statement worrisome for two reasons:

(1) You can't really know when a person is about to go unconscious until they actually do so, thus it's extremely difficult to know where the actual point of unconsciousness is until you actually reach it.

(2) More importantly, unconsciousness is a symptom, not a condition in and of itself. It has numerous underlying causes ranging from simple fainting to cardiac arrest, and which of these will cause the unconsciousness cannot be known in advance.

I have discussed my concerns regarding breath control with well over a dozen SM-positive physicians, and with numerous other SM-positive health professionals, and all share my concerns. We have discussed how breath control might be done in a way that is not life-threatening, and come up blank. We have discussed how the risk might be significantly reduced, and come up blank. We have discussed how it might be determined that an arrest is imminent, and come up blank.

Indeed, so far not one (repeat, not one) single physician, nurse, paramedic, chiropractor, physiologist, or other person with substantial training in how a human body works has been willing to step forth and teach a form of breath control play that they are willing to assert is acceptably safe -- i.e., does not put the recipient at imminent, unpredictable risk of dying. I believe this fact makes a major statement.

Other "edge play" topics such as suspension bondage, electricity play, cutting, piercing, branding, enemas, water sports, and scat play can and have been taught with reasonable safety, but not breath control play. Indeed, it seems that the more somebody knows about how a human body works, the more likely they are to caution people about how dangerous breath control is, and about how little can be done to reduce the degree of risk.

In many ways, oxygen is to the human body, and particularly to the heart and brain, what oil is to a car's engine. Indeed, there's a medical adage that goes "hypoxia (becoming dangerously low on oxygen) not only stops the motor, but also wrecks the engine." Therefore, asking how one can play safely with breath control is very similar to asking how one can drive a car safely while draining it of oil.

Some people tell the "mechanics" something like, "Well, I'm going to drain my car of oil anyway, and I'm not going to keep track of how low the oil level is getting while I'm driving my car, so tell me how to do this with as much safety as possible." (They may even add something like "Hey, I always shut the engine off before it catches fire.") They then get frustrated when the mechanics scratch their heads and say that they don't know. They may even label such mechanics as "anti-education."

A bit about my background may help explain my concerns. I was an ambulance crewman for over eight years. I attended medical school for three years, and passed my four-year boards, (then ran out of money). I am a former member of the American Academy of Family Physicians and a former American Heart Association instructor in Advanced Cardiac Life Support. I have an extensive martial arts background that includes a first-degree black belt in Tae Kwon Do. My martial arts training included several months of judo that involved both my choking and being choked.

I have been an instructor in first aid, CPR, and various advanced emergency care techniques for over sixteen years. My students have included physicians, nurses, paramedics, police officers, fire fighters, wilderness emergency personnel, martial artists, and large numbers of ordinary citizens. I currently offer both basic and advanced first aid and CPR training to the SM community.

During my ambulance days, I responded to at least one call involving the death of a young teenage boy who died from autoerotic strangulation, and to several other calls where this was suspected but could not be confirmed. (Family members often "sanitize" such scenes before calling 911.) Additionally, I personally know two members of my local SM community who went to prison after their partners died during breath control play.

The primary danger of suffocation play is that it is not a condition that gets worse over time (regarding the heart, anyway, it does get worse over time regarding the brain). Rather, what happens is that the more the play is prolonged, the greater the odds that a cardiac arrest will occur. Sometimes even one minute of suffocation can cause this; sometimes even less.

Quick pathophysiology lesson # 1: When the heart gets low on oxygen, it starts to fire off "extra" pacemaker sites. These usually appear in the ventricles and are thus called premature ventricular contractions -- PVC's for short. If a PVC happens to fire off during the electrical re polarization phase of cardiac contraction (the dreaded "PVC on T" phenomenon, also sometimes called "R on T") it can kick the heart over into ventricular fibrillation -- a form of cardiac arrest. The lower the heart gets on oxygen, the more PVC's it generates, and the more vulnerable to their effect it becomes, thus hypoxia increases both the probability of a PVC-on-T occurring and of its causing a cardiac arrest.

When this will happen to a particular person in a particular session is simply not predictable. This is exactly where most of the medical people I have discussed this topic with "hit the wall." Virtually all medical folks know that PVC's are both life-threatening and hard to detect unless the patient is hooked to a cardiac monitor. When medical folks discuss breath control play, the question quickly becomes: How can you tell when they start throwing PVC's? The answer is: You basically can't.

Quick pathophysiology lesson # 2: When breathing is restricted, the body cannot eliminate carbon dioxide as it should, and the amount of carbon dioxide in the blood increases. Carbon dioxide (CO2) and water (H2 exist in equilibrium with what's called carbonic acid (H2CO3) in a reaction catalyzed by an enzyme called carbonic anhydrase. (Sorry, but I can't do subscripts in this program.)

Thus: CO2 + H2O H2CO3

A molecule of carbonic acid dissociates on its own into a molecule of what's called bicarbonate (HCO3-) and an (acidic) hydrogen ion. (H+)

Thus: H2CO3 = HCO3- and H+

Thus the overall pattern is:

H2O + CO2 = H2CO3 = HCO3- + H+

Therefore, if breathing is restricted, CO2 builds up and the reaction shifts to the right in an attempt to balance things out, ultimately making the blood more acidic and thus decreasing its pH. This is called respiratory acidosis. (If the patient hyperventilates, they "blow off CO2" and the reaction shifts to the left, thus increasing the pH. This is called respiratory alkalosis, and has its own dangers.)

Quick pathophysiology lesson # 3:

Again, if breathing is restricted, not only does carbon dioxide have a hard time getting out, but oxygen also has a hard time getting in. A molecule of glucose (C6H12O6) breaks down within the cell by a process called glycolysis into two molecules of pyruvate, thus creating a small amount of ATP for the body to use as energy. Under normal circumstances, pyruvate quickly combines with oxygen to produce a much larger amount of ATP. However, if there's not enough oxygen to properly metabolize the pyruvate, it is converted into lactic acid and produces one form of what's called a metabolic acidosis.

As you can see, either a build-up in the blood of carbon dioxide or a decrease in the blood of oxygen will cause the pH of the blood to fall. If both occur at the same time, as they do in cases of suffocation, the pH of the blood will plummet to life-threatening levels within a very few minutes. The pH of normal human blood is in the 7.35 to 7.45 range (slightly alkaline). A pH falling to 6.9 (or raising to 7. is "incompatible with life."

Past experience, either with others or with that same person, is not particularly useful. Carefully watching their level of consciousness, skin color, and pulse rate is of only limited value. Even hooking the bottom up to both a pulse oximeter and a cardiac monitor (assuming you had either piece of equipment, and they're not cheap) would be of only limited additional value.

While an experienced clinician can sometimes detect PVC's by feeling the patient's pulse, in reality the only reliable way to detect them is to hook the patient up to a cardiac monitor. The problem is that each PVC is potentially lethal, particularly if the heart is low on oxygen. Even if you "ease up" on the bottom immediately, there's no telling when the PVC's will stop. They could stop almost at once, or they could continue for hours.

In addition to the primary danger of cardiac arrest, there is good evidence to document that there is a very real risk of cumulative brain damage if the practice is repeated often enough. In particular, laboratory studies of repeated brief interruption of blood flow to the brains of animals and studies of people with what's called "sleep apnea syndrome" (in which they stop breathing for up to two minutes while sleeping) document that cumulative brain damage does occur in such cases.

There are many documented additional dangers. These include, but are not limited to: rupture of the windpipe, fracture of the larynx, damage to the blood vessels in the neck, dislodging a fatty plaque in a neck artery which then travels to the brain and causes a stroke, damage to the cervical spine, seizures, airway obstruction by the tongue, and aspiration of vomit. Additionally, there are documented cases in which the recipient appeared to fully recover but was found dead several hours later.

The American Psychiatric Association estimates a death rate of one person per year per million of population -- thus about 250 deaths last year in the U.S. Law enforcement estimates go as much as four times higher. Most such deaths occur during solo play, however there are many documented cases of deaths that occurred during play with a partner. It should be noted that the presence of a partner does nothing to limit the primary danger, and does little or nothing to limit most of the secondary dangers.

Some people teach that choking can be safely done if pressure on the windpipe is avoided. Their belief is that pressing on the arteries leading to the brain while avoiding pressure on the windpipe can safely cause unconsciousness. The reality, unfortunately, is that pressing on the carotid arteries, exactly as they recommend, presses on baroreceptors known as the carotid sinus bodies. These bodies then cause vasodilation in the brain, thus there is not enough blood to perfuse the brain and the recipient loses consciousness. However, that's not the whole story.

Unfortunately, a message is also sent to the main pacemaker of the heart, via the vagus nerve, to decrease the rate and force of the heartbeat. Most of the time, under strong vagal influence, the rate and force of the heartbeat decreases by one third. However, every now and then, the rate and force decreases to zero and the bottom "flatlines" into asystole -- another, and more difficult to treat, form of cardiac arrest. There is no way to tell whether or not this will happen in any particular instance, or how quickly. There are many documented cases of as little as five seconds of choking causing a vagal-outflow-induced cardiac arrest.

For the reason cited above, many police departments have now either entirely banned the use of choke holds or have reclassified them as a form of deadly force. Indeed, a local CHP officer recently had a $250,000 judgment brought against him after a nonviolent suspect died while being choked by him.

Finally, as a CPR instructor myself, I want to caution that knowing CPR does little to make the risk of death from breath control play significantly smaller. While CPR can and should be done, understand that the probability of success is likely to be less than 10%.

I'm not going to state that breath control is something that nobody should ever do under any circumstances. I have no problem with informed, freely consenting people taking any degree of risk they wish. I am going to state that there is a great deal of ignorance regarding what actually happens to a body when it's suffocated or strangled, and that the actual degree of risk associated with these practices is far greater than most people believe.

I have noticed that, when people are educated regarding the severity and unpredictability of the risks, fewer and fewer choose to play in this area, and those who do continue tend to play less often. I also notice that, because of its severe and unpredictable risks, more and more SM party-givers are banning any form of breath control play at their events.

< Message edited by Scotty306134 -- 8/22/2009 9:40:56 AM >

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RE: breathplay - 8/26/2009 5:13:57 PM   
Xperienced


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WHy is all the stuff I like always the craziest stuff like this!!!

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Profile   Post #: 34
RE: breathplay - 8/27/2009 4:21:28 AM   
allthatjaz


Posts: 2878
Joined: 8/20/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DavanKael

The reviving of old threads often irks me but I actually have been pondering this practice related to chokes commonly used in martial arts classes. 
I have been taking jiu jitsu/MMA classes for a few months and very early on, one learns both breath chokes and blood/carotid chokes.  I've been a lot closer to losing consciousness in class than I've ever been from breathplay with a partner...I am also stubborn and do not like to tap, even when it's just practice. 
I've talked with a couple of people who are martial arts based but, as far as I can ascertain when I explain my query, haven't utilized the activities for fun grown-up purposes and each of the really experienced people I've spoken with is of the perception that I am over-emphasizing the danger.  They also seem to think that the throat-based chokes are more dangerous than the arterial-chokes, which is totally contrary to everything I have ever seen discussed on the matter in bdsm circles. 
I have forwarded the wikipedia article on the carotid sinus reflex death to one for review and comment. 
I'm curious, though, from anyone with a martial arts background, what's your perception of these things as someone who is also kink-based? 
  Davan


Hi Davan

I really don't know if throat based chokes are more dangerous than arterial chokes but 6 months ago I was in a 'fight for life' situation that resulted from a throat based choke. We were just fooling around in a wrestle match when in a moment of excitement he threw his arm around my neck (my back to him). I went down in less than 2 seconds and I didn't come round but went into convulsions. He did all the right things including immediately calling the emergency services.
We both know how lucky I was, we were both hugely frightened by this experience and we both now appreciate life is too precious to risk with such play.

We still do breath play but that is a hand over the mouth and a pinch of the nose. If I am doing this kind of breath play with someone, then I will always hold my own breath (and Im not a good underwater swimmer!) Once I need to breath then I need to let my sub breath too.

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