RE: bye bye Gitmo? (Full Version)

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Sanity -> RE: bye bye Gitmo? (1/21/2009 6:38:01 PM)


It's funny how old wives tales grow legs, isn't it.

Nobody was tortured in Gitmo. Two top al-Qaeda operatives were waterboarded, but it's a stretch to really call that torture. It's scary, sure - but it's painless. As far as the rest of the terrorists held there, I'll bet I faced worse treatment by the teachers and staff as a Jr. High student back in the 1970's than terrorists faced in Guantanamo.



ArticMaestro -> RE: bye bye Gitmo? (1/21/2009 7:04:08 PM)

Philo, your and other comments that since the Magna Carta and basic western values are violated by the holding of combatants with out a trial, isn't true.  That the Magna carta would apply combatants in a war is absurd, and brand new.  Completely unsupported by any sort of history.  That is a brand new reading of a 800+year old rule.  Individual trials have never been held for any sort of POW (which under Geneva has a specific limited definition).  Geneva is quite clear that people can b held wiht no trial at all, untill the security situation is resolved.  If a nation wants to charge with a specific act for a punishment that will continue after the War is over, then a full and fair trial must be held.  But if you are caught fighting, you get subjected to Geneva rules, which if you violate the basic conduct, you do not get POW status, and can be held incommunicado.

The idea that everyone held in WW2 (or in any war)by a governement got a full due process trial with a public defender is ridiculous,  Pure fantasy.

If Obama can get the home nations to take back most of these people, I will be impressed.  Bush has been trying for years.  They do not want them back. 

Most that do go home, will face torture....We will be sending them to hellholes, where we know they will be abused.   Is that really what we want?

If congress will finally get off thier asses and create a system for giving these people a trial, Great.  But why didn't the last congress?  They will put out a new system of secret trials (which will not vary from the Bush system at all), and Democrats will swoon.  And Gitmo can close.  Congress could have done it 2 years ago, but played politics with the detainees, apperantly.



Cagey18 -> RE: bye bye Gitmo? (1/21/2009 7:25:41 PM)

 
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

Nobody was tortured in Gitmo. Two top al-Qaeda operatives were waterboarded, but it's a stretch to really call that torture.

The incoming Attorney General disagrees with you.  (even Bush's AG waffled on it)

U.S. Attorney General's opinion vs. Sanity's opinion...tough call, that.

[8|]




popeye1250 -> RE: bye bye Gitmo? (1/21/2009 7:41:48 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


It's funny how old wives tales grow legs, isn't it.

Nobody was tortured in Gitmo. Two top al-Qaeda operatives were waterboarded, but it's a stretch to really call that torture. It's scary, sure - but it's painless. As far as the rest of the terrorists held there, I'll bet I faced worse treatment by the teachers and staff as a Jr. High student back in the 1970's than terrorists faced in Guantanamo.



You certainly did if you went to ~Catholic School~!
My father used to call my mother's favorite Nun in Catholic school, "Sister Mary Suffering Bastard."

Hey SpongeBob, everyone is entitled to an opinion.
The people in our govt are there to "serve" not to try to tell The People what to do.



OrionTheWolf -> RE: bye bye Gitmo? (1/21/2009 7:57:21 PM)

Any proof of O59 not answering direct questions? Yeah, several in the off topic section here, and even when I tried prompting him for answers in another topic, I was warned by the mods for bumping a topic. It happens all the time.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Cagey18

quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

Don't hold your breath on him answering Merc. He has dodged and ignored direct questions so often lately, it is becoming a habit.

Ya got any proof of that Charlie?

Thought not.






Cagey18 -> RE: bye bye Gitmo? (1/21/2009 8:04:17 PM)

My error...your reply followed multiple exchanges between Merc and me, so I thought you were referring to me, not O59.

I thought that seemed to come out of nowhere... [:-]  Thanks for the clarification.



kittinSol -> RE: bye bye Gitmo? (1/21/2009 8:07:08 PM)

There's lots  to be said against the 'fast reply' function. 



Cagey18 -> RE: bye bye Gitmo? (1/21/2009 8:11:57 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Hey SpongeBob, everyone is entitled to an opinion.


Not true.  To quote Harlan Ellison, everyone is entitled to an informed opinion. [:D]



Sanity -> RE: bye bye Gitmo? (1/21/2009 8:14:23 PM)

Hey popeye, the guy they waterboarded at Gitmo is the same guy who masterminded the 9/11 attacks. You think waterboarding went far enough? They got a lot of useful information out of the guy, but personally, if it was up to me we would bury him up to his chin in a red ant pile, then broadcast the results to the world live via satellite.

I guess Obama's Attorney General thinks we should give the guy ice cream and cake instead, and give him three wishes - anything he wants.



Vendaval -> RE: bye bye Gitmo? (1/21/2009 8:17:13 PM)

Fast Reply -
 
MSNBC reported in June 2008 that a medical exam team found physical evidence of torture supporting claims by inmates at both the Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq and Guantanamo Bay, Cuba.
 
 
Report: Exams prove torture in Iraq, Gitmo
Physicians for Human Rights looked at 11 former prisoners

updated 9:13 p.m. PT, Tues., June. 17, 2008
 
"Physicians for Human Rights, a Mass.-based health advocacy group, did not identify the 11 former prisoners to protect their privacy. Seven were held in Abu Ghraib between late 2003 and summer of 2004, a period that coincides with the known abuse of prisoners at the hands of some of their American jailers. Four of the prisoners were held at Guantanamo beginning in 2002 for one to almost five years. All 11 were released without criminal charges.

Those examined alleged that they were tortured or abused, including sexually, and described being shocked with electrodes, beaten, shackled, stripped of their clothes, deprived of food and sleep, and spit and urinated on."

and

"Injuries documented by examsHowever, doctors and mental health professionals stated they could link the prisoners' claims of abuse while in U.S. detention to injuries documented by X-rays, medical exams and psychological tests.

"The level of the time, thoroughness and rigor of the exams left me personally without question about the credibility of the individuals," said Dr. Allen Keller, one of the doctors who conducted the exams, in an interview with the AP. "The findings on the physical and psychological exams were consistent with what they reported."

All 11 former detainees reported being subjected to:

Stress positions, including being suspended for hours by the arms or tightly shackled for days.
Prolonged isolation and hooding or blindfolding, a form of sensory deprivation.
Extreme heat or cold.
Threats against themselves, their families or friends from interrogators or guards.

Ten said they were forced to be naked, some for days or weeks. Nine said they were subjected to prolonged sleep deprivation. At least six said they were threatened with military working dogs, often while naked. Four reported being sodomized, subjected to anal probing, or threatened with rape."

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/25218584/



Sanity -> RE: bye bye Gitmo? (1/21/2009 8:28:56 PM)


Thanks Ven, but we're discussing Gitmo, specifically.

I wonder why your "Human Rights" activists neglected to mention the panties these poor Iraqis had to wear on their heads. And the butt pyramids...

Can't forget the butt pyramids!



Vendaval -> RE: bye bye Gitmo? (1/21/2009 8:36:40 PM)

Did you read the article? Prisoners from both locations were examined and showed physical evidence of torture.



Sanity -> RE: bye bye Gitmo? (1/21/2009 8:42:55 PM)

X-rays proved they were kept with hoods on? Proved they were threatened? You call that physical evidence of torture?

Sounds like there might have been lawyers involved, filing lawsuits, promising huge awards for the juiciest whoppers...



Sanity -> RE: bye bye Gitmo? (1/21/2009 8:47:03 PM)


It seems that there are those who are desperate to MAKE torture a  reality in Gitmo, when there is no real evidence that it ever was.One or two real monsters were waterboarded, a few were made to feel uncomfortable - and that's about it. 



snappykappy -> RE: bye bye Gitmo? (1/21/2009 8:52:04 PM)

i was stationed in gtmo for about a year at the public work station down there
only thing to do then was go to the outdoor movies
hit the beach and could buy booze for 50 cents a fifth
and go to the cuban village and get drunk and eat sandwiches
of course the co of the nas gtmo has 2 fine looking daughters but they got caught fucking for pot and cocaine
and they always said that was the best naval station in the military to get easy drugs at



Owner59 -> RE: bye bye Gitmo? (1/21/2009 8:52:56 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


It's funny how old wives tales grow legs, isn't it.

Nobody was tortured in Git mo. Two top al-Qaeda operatives were waterboarded, but it's a stretch to really call that torture. It's scary, sure - but it's painless. As far as the rest of the terrorists held there, I'll bet I faced worse treatment by the teachers and staff as a Jr. High student back in the 1970's than terrorists faced in Guantanamo.



Umm. Water boarding(prolonged suffocation) is torture.

The bushevik revolution is over.

We can now attach the real meaning of words back to before the revolution.

cheney and bush have publicly said they tortured.cheney bragged about it ,when he lied by claiming vital life saving intel was gotten from it.

A pack of thieves,liars and traitors,... the busheviks...and tortures.



Hippiekinkster -> RE: bye bye Gitmo? (1/21/2009 8:55:18 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Vendaval

Did you read the article? Prisoners from both locations were examined and showed physical evidence of torture.
It conflicts with his ideology. In the event of such a conflict, he either ignores it, belittles it, claims it didn't happen, or is a "Liberal Lie" or any combination thereof. 



Vendaval -> RE: bye bye Gitmo? (1/21/2009 8:57:14 PM)

You are spot on, HK.



Sanity -> RE: bye bye Gitmo? (1/21/2009 9:03:32 PM)


Now come the personal attacks.

You can't make a case for your grossly misinformed opinions about Gitmo, so you think a personal attack might distract everybody...


[sm=applause.gif]

Bravo.

Change the subject, make it about me...

Some things never change.


quote:

ORIGINAL: HippiekinksterIt conflicts with his ideology. In the event of such a conflict, he either ignores it, belittles it, claims it didn't happen, or is a "Liberal Lie" or any combination thereof. 








Sanity -> RE: bye bye Gitmo? (1/21/2009 9:23:24 PM)


Let's recap just a little, shall we?

Here's the gem of a post that started this sub-thread on "torture" at Gitmo. Note how the overt implication is that "That damn George Bush, why - he tortured everyone who was down there, day and night for years on end."

Towards the end of the discussion here, we have Vendeval dragging out Abu Ghraib inmates, whose abusers were punished with prison time, and then after combining both Gitmo AND Abu Ghraib prisoners she can count a total of eleven prisoners whom a presumably far left "Human Rights" activist group claims was tortured by being yelled at and threatened, etc.



quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkStevenI assume that Bush thought he could simply torture them, get usable information, and act on it quickly. Like so many of his other plans, there was no Plan B, and we simply ended up holding people with no charges brought against them.

Many of them have confessed under torture, which would be inadmissible under US or international law. This will be a lightning rod if/when those confessions are ruled inadmissible and they are freed...








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