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RE: Slaves with requirements... - 1/26/2009 8:23:36 AM

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~FR~
As there is no one person to reply to their post.
Would like to ask the OP what template of what a slave should be is he basing his opinion upon?

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RE: Slaves with requirements... - 1/26/2009 8:37:50 AM

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quote:

We can't learn from others who are having to play defense against our personal jeers and attacks, or a lack of respect for their right to even voice their perspective. And if they show no respect for opinions different from their own, they can't learn from us. The environment has to be a safe one for everyone to be heard and understood. It is this that is the most important, that is the most productive, that will glean us so much more knowledge and that is what we're all after here, isn't it?

Hopefully i did the quote thing correctly. This portion of a previous post was something that i felt needed to be addressed. It seem quite often in today's world, there is no difference to some between "attacking" a person's ideas and "attacking" the person. If i put forth an opinion of mine, ask how others view said opinion and the vast majority of people disagree with the premise of my opinion, i would then start to look at the basis for my opinion. i may or may not change my opinion, but i would not view such responses as "attacks" on me as a person, but rather as rebuttals or differing opinions.

quote:

I don't see my car refusing to start for only one sex-so how can a slave make any decision as to who owns them?

-- direct quote from OP

That being said, there are some opinions in the world that are entirely indefensible, and while i would not put the OP's comments quite in that category, from the perspective of the BDSM "lifestyle", it comes pretty close. There may be some on collarme that would argue that no-limit slavery or slaves as possessions does not, or can not exist, i am not one of those and after reading this entire thread, that is not the perspective of the responses to the OP. The point that is actually being disagreed with is the OP's statement that anyone who identifies as a slave doesn't have the right to chose who he or she will serve, not that after he or she has chosen to serve a particulat Master, that he or she becomes property, without rights.

That premise, (that a person who identifies as a slave doesn't have the "right" to choose who he or she will be a slave to, prior to being owned) is entirely indefensible. While there is some disagreement (as seen by some previous threads in the forums) as to how many rights a slave has after becoming a slave to a particular Master (the right to end the relationship or not), nowhere other than with this OP have i seen anyone put forth the premise that anyone who identifies as a slave (though currently unowned) doesn't even have the right to chose who he or she will eventually be owned by.

In fact, almost universally, especially the ones who are "more extreme" on the lack of rights to an owned slave (i.e. that once owned a slave can not chose to leave the relationship), it is stated that a potential slave needs to be very wise about whom he or she choses to serve. So for the OP to state that a slave (being property, even though unowned) doesn't even have the "right" to chose who he or she will serve, is not only (in my opinion) indefensible, but absurd.

No, a car does not chose who will or will not buy it, but a car is not a sentient being and to make that correlary is assinine.

heartfelt

< Message edited by heartfeltsub -- 1/26/2009 8:53:54 AM >

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RE: Slaves with requirements... - 1/26/2009 8:56:36 AM

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maybe this should go to a new thread dealing with the separate issues about slavery? The mods have called it quits three times (that i have seen) so far. Not my place to say, just wondering if the people that still need to voice things might do better in a new thread.

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RE: Slaves with requirements... - 1/26/2009 9:18:18 AM

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Might be a good idea, but mods didn't call it quits so much as tell everybody to settle down with the personal attacks. They can and do lock or remove threads if deemed necessary. Seems like it has settled down too after the warnings.

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RE: Slaves with requirements... - 1/26/2009 9:34:12 AM

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Plus, there is no real need to start a new thread when one on the topic is active.

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RE: Slaves with requirements... - 1/26/2009 9:53:53 AM

WinsomeDefiance

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I think the OP rationalized his viewpoint by saying that in his belief slaves are property, and anyone who is a slave, is up for grabs, having no rights. Further appearing to imply that those who are not owned, but who have requirements, are not really slaves, but individuals who should advertise/present themselves 'accurately' as submissives. I'm neither condoning nor disagreeing. Just a summary of my understanding of HIS belief - certainly not a reflection of my own thoughts.

Since posing any further questions to the OP, would appear to be an exercise in frustration - and I'm hardly that masochistic, I'll pose my questions to those following this thread, instead.

To those who are unowned: Do you identify as a slave, despite the fact that you are not owned? Would you please share your thoughts on this?

To those who are in the market to own a slave: 1) Do you consider someone who is not owned a slave already? Would you please share your thoughts on this?

To those who ARE owned slaves: Did YOU consider yourself a slave prior to being bagged and tagged?

To those who DO own slaves: Did you consider your slave already a slave prior to owning them?

Any response is appreciated.

WinD

(in reply to LaTigresse)

RE: Slaves with requirements... - 1/26/2009 10:32:47 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: WinsomeDefiance

Since posing any further questions to the OP, would appear to be an exercise in frustration - and I'm hardly that masochistic, I'll pose my questions to those following this thread, instead.

To those who are unowned: Do you identify as a slave, despite the fact that you are not owned? Would you please share your thoughts on this?

To those who are in the market to own a slave: 1) Do you consider someone who is not owned a slave already? Would you please share your thoughts on this?

To those who ARE owned slaves: Did YOU consider yourself a slave prior to being bagged and tagged?

To those who DO own slaves: Did you consider your slave already a slave prior to owning them?

Any response is appreciated.

WinD

Some excellent questions!!!

I can only answer from the unowned perspective. My personal view and belief is that you do not have to be owned to be a slave in bdsm/wiitwd. I think you are a slave in your heart and soul and what I'm about to say may seem to contradict that, but it really doesn't when you take it in the context I'm trying to say it.

Now that said, I currently identify as a submissive, not because I'm unowned but because I cannot be slave to just anyone or in just any relationship. It has to be a very strong relationship with a huge depth of trust and respect built along with the love before I can let go and totally surrender. I can be slave, but only to a specific fit to me. Does that make sense?

The identity, the knowledge of who I am, the feelings, are all there, but it has to be right for me before I let go like that. Letting go that far in the wrong relationship (even though it was not D/s or M/s or bdsm in any way) caused me a lot of pain and anguish and utter hell. I was a slave (at least partially consentually during a good portion of that relationship) to my ex. The need to take care of him, do for him, make him happy, smooth the way for him was overwhelmingly strong and endured through a lot of the abuse until it was beaten back from it all finally.

That experience is why now it is so very hard to let go and fully trust. I have conditioned myself from that experience to hold back and go slowly in surrendering and to this day have yet to reach that point again.

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RE: Slaves with requirements... - 1/26/2009 10:49:42 AM

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quote:

To those who are unowned: Do you identify as a slave, despite the fact that you are not owned? Would you please share your thoughts on this?

I have not yet wrapped my mind around that to even answer myself. With Sir, I am unowned, yet by my choice have given him total control. What he says goes. I do not have any limitations with him, yet I do know what his are and there is nothing Sir could ask me to do that I wouldnt oblige. Does not mean I breeze through everything, but I accept my commitment to him. Am I an unowned slave in a Ds relationship? In my mind in many aspects i am. We do not live together, and he does not micromanage my life. That is not the way he seeks to control. I do not ask him too, because that is part of my agreement. I do not need to ask his permission to carry on my life with everything i do. I don't know what i am, just know that i have accepted him as the one who has the control in our relationship.

(in reply to WinsomeDefiance)

RE: Slaves with requirements... - 1/26/2009 10:54:42 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: WinsomeDefiance

I think the OP rationalized his viewpoint by saying that in his belief slaves are property, and anyone who is a slave, is up for grabs, having no rights. Further appearing to imply that those who are not owned, but who have requirements, are not really slaves, but individuals who should advertise/present themselves 'accurately' as submissives. I'm neither condoning nor disagreeing. Just a summary of my understanding of HIS belief - certainly not a reflection of my own thoughts.

Since posing any further questions to the OP, would appear to be an exercise in frustration - and I'm hardly that masochistic, I'll pose my questions to those following this thread, instead.

To those who are unowned: Do you identify as a slave, despite the fact that you are not owned? Would you please share your thoughts on this?

To those who are in the market to own a slave: 1) Do you consider someone who is not owned a slave already? Would you please share your thoughts on this?

To those who ARE owned slaves: Did YOU consider yourself a slave prior to being bagged and tagged?

To those who DO own slaves: Did you consider your slave already a slave prior to owning them?

Any response is appreciated.

WinD

Whether it works for anyone else, this is how I look at it. On here, in the forums, I rarely look at a person's profile. What that means is this.

Much of the time I may not know if they are male or female. Dominant or sub/slave. Gay, bi or straight. Already in a relationship or looking. Usually it really doesn't matter. To me, we are just a bunch of human beings with a few shared interests the greater percentage of the population does not have. Some of us are dumber than a box of rocks, others are too smart for their own good, some haven't got the tact god gave a stump, others are just purely too damned nice, and others are just too god damned screwy for words. And not in that pleasant, "She/he's quite odd, but just a sweetheart once you get to know her" kind of way either.

The ONLY time that the above matter is if I should become interested in them, or they in me. Then I do very much care if it is a woman then I know for both our sakes, it had better be someone that identifies as a female service slave and not already in a relationship.

If that person identifies as a service slave AND we both are interested, then and only then do we need to discuss exactly what that means to both of us.

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Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

(in reply to WinsomeDefiance)

RE: Slaves with requirements... - 1/26/2009 10:59:34 AM

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I can relate to much of what you wrote in your post DominantDamsel. To highlight a few points:

quote:

At one time, I was attempting submission and slavery drew me like a moth to a flame. I couldn't explain why but it was attractive on some core level and I began to explore the realm of submission. Through that exploration, I found that I am a prideful being and have the spirit of a warrior and a rebel, instead of the calm, humble, passive spirit of the natural submissive or natural slave. Though I could bend that will of mine in order to please, it was terribly hard for me and highly unnatural. It was certainly enlightening and even good for me to attempt it, but it became clear through more time spent and more experimentation that I did not have a "slave heart." I was simply too full of pride to bend consistently. It took much time to discover this about myself.

I have met a couple of slaves who have anything but a passive spirit. Their Masters did not find this a turn off at all. Their Masters wanted strong self-willed individuals who made a specific choice to give themselves totally to Them. In communicating with one of these Masters on cm, I began to learn more about myself. I am anything but submissive, yet I use that label on cm because if I label myself slave then other perceptions are then projected onto me.

I learned through these Masters and their slaves that they were loved, cherished and respected for all parts of their being. They are multidimensional and that is what these Masters loved. Yes, the slaves made a consious choice to submit their will to these Masters, but in one case, there were certain agreements that the Master could never impose upon, such as family, causing extreme harm and a couple of other things. In another case, the slave was encouraged to do what his soul yearned for in terms of his artistic ability. This pleased his Master.

So, I am still learning about my slave/service heart. If I am to give myself totally to a person, then so be it. Perhaps I will become "slave" to a cause. I just know there is a yearning within my soul and that is okay. For now I gather information and by opening my heart, by opening my mind, then I am opening to what the universe has in store for me, and whenever I have done that I have been given gifts way beyond my imagination.

And I do know that for some the topic of what a slave or submissive is may be tiresome. Perhaps it has been addressed many times in the forums. But for me it is a dynamic topic that may evolve in time and with new people there may be some little gem that may make their dream come true.

I work retail and get the same questions every day. Some days, when I am tired, I sometimes think to myself, "Oh no! Not that question again. Can't these people learn?" And yesterday when I heard that thought I had to stop it short. I then proceeded to explain to this woman with a sick child and she herself who was getting sick the benefits of the Lactobacilli and Bifido species in her gut. I explained it as though I were explaining it for the first time. She bought probiotics for herself as well as her child and asked my name, shook my hand and left with a big smile on her face. By receiving her and treating her as if she were the only person in the world at that moment she felt empowered and will spread that joy and empowerment to her daughter and friends.

So, I see my service heart as serving in any way I can in the hopes of bringing a little more joy to a world that is ridden with suffering, for most of the people I see daily have pain and misery written all over their faces.

So to those who have shared their feelings I thank you for helping me delve deeper into myself and DD, if it would be okay I would like to email you on cm to ask you questions for I find you have done a lot of the soul searching I am in the process of and would like to get some more information from you. You seem like another soul I can share some of the painful insights with as well, since from what I have read in your posts, and your profile, you have had the ups and downs I seem to be going through in my journey.

Namaste,
TT

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RE: Slaves with requirements... - 1/26/2009 11:05:50 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: WinsomeDefiance

Since posing any further questions to the OP, would appear to be an exercise in frustration - and I'm hardly that masochistic, I'll pose my questions to those following this thread, instead.

To those who are unowned: Do you identify as a slave, despite the fact that you are not owned? Would you please share your thoughts on this?

To those who are in the market to own a slave: 1) Do you consider someone who is not owned a slave already? Would you please share your thoughts on this?

To those who ARE owned slaves: Did YOU consider yourself a slave prior to being bagged and tagged?

To those who DO own slaves: Did you consider your slave already a slave prior to owning them?

Any response is appreciated.

WinD

Good questions Winsome. As I answer this, bear in mind this is how I feel and not a matter of throwing out a smart assed reply! I am unowned and I consider myself to be human first and foremost, though I can self label myself as sub or slave. When I was owned, I was considered a slave by my former owner and that was consensual and formed the foundation to our dynamic at that time. That same premises will apply again with the dominant I will have in the future. Whether I will be seen as sub/slave/lover/partner/tramp/slut by my partner are simply roles that I will be taking on as one part to that relationship. Yet underneath these labels I have, I will still remain a human being that everyone else will see.

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RE: Slaves with requirements... - 1/26/2009 11:06:49 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: WinsomeDefiance

To those who ARE owned slaves: Did YOU consider yourself a slave prior to being bagged and tagged?

Hi Winnie D,

I considered myself a submissive who had it within me to be a slave to the right man. When He and I first started seeing each other, my submission to Him was mostly limited to the bedroom. But as time passed, it naturally and at it's own pace, grew to encompass more and more of my life and our relationship.

But because I was unsure of how far He wished to go and where He wanted to take our relationship, I held back. I held back until the night He told me He was in love with me and wished to own me. From that day forward, slowly, steadily, firmly and lovingly He has enslaved me.

Not sure if that's what you were looking for or not.

(in reply to WinsomeDefiance)

RE: Slaves with requirements... - 1/26/2009 12:22:38 PM

WinsomeDefiance

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I'm not really looking for anything in particular, other than insight on each individual's own perception in regards to the questions asked. I honestly have no agenda, aside from being curious.

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RE: Slaves with requirements... - 1/26/2009 1:05:04 PM

WiseCracknSadist

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In my opinion slavery as it relates to the D/s community is nothing more an extreme form of escapism. The reason I say this is because no intelligent being would allow a captive access to a device that could give their posession a means to escape.

How people identify themselves is their business, but the label they choose always comes with a certain public perception and should take that into consideration.

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RE: Slaves with requirements... - 1/26/2009 2:19:22 PM

WinsomeDefiance

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quote:

ORIGINAL: WiseCracknSadist

In my opinion slavery as it relates to the D/s community is nothing more an extreme form of escapism. The reason I say this is because no intelligent being would allow a captive access to a device that could give their posession a means to escape.

I'm not sure I follow what you are saying here? Do you believe that slavery as WIITWD/D's/M's etc. is purely a means to escape from reality? How does this relate to your qualifying that statement with the comment you made? If it isn't fantasy, what device is it that is provided to allow ones possession a means of escape? Are you referring to the internet? To consent?

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RE: Slaves with requirements... - 1/26/2009 2:20:46 PM

whiteslavebitch

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To those who are unowned: Do you identify as a slave, despite the fact that you are not owned? Would you please share your thoughts on this? N/A

To those who are in the market to own a slave: 1) Do you consider someone who is not owned a slave already? Would you please share your thoughts on this?
N/A
To those who ARE owned slaves: Did YOU consider yourself a slave prior to being bagged and tagged? When I was unowned, I did not consider myself a slave. I did not start identifying as a slave until I committed to a relationship with MasterK. He brought out the desire to be a slave, before I met him I specifically denied being a slave. I believe I would not be one with any other dominant.

To those who DO own slaves: Did you consider your slave already a slave prior to owning them? N/A

Any response is appreciated.

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RE: Slaves with requirements... - 1/26/2009 2:34:34 PM

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When i have been between owners, I have had some sort of fall back M (male or female) to help me find a new home *insert lost puppy look here* Was i still a slave? well yes and no. There was still a Sir or a Ma'am or both using my services (housecleaning, babysitting, personal assistant, sales staff etc) and making sure i had a roof and food (by they by cash i earned that they told me to spend on rent and food, or a place in their house and their food). I have rarely been outside that sort of support network and i always go running back when i find i am too far away from it.

So while i wasn't attached to a M of some sort, i was a slave in rebellion tasting "freedom" (AKA the vanilla world) and I ran back to my Sirs and Ma'ams pretty quickly.

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RE: Slaves with requirements... - 1/26/2009 5:43:33 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: WinsomeDefiance
To those who ARE owned slaves: Did YOU consider yourself a slave prior to being bagged and tagged?

Nope. For us, saying that I am a slave means that I am in a relationship where someone else has complete authority over me. Until I entered that relationship, I was only someone who desired to submit to the will of my partner.

Knight's Kyra

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(in reply to WinsomeDefiance)

RE: Slaves with requirements... - 1/26/2009 6:39:05 PM

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In all things, we pursue happiness and fullfillment. We seek that which brings us what we need. The true definition of slave is one who is property without consent. They are bought, captured and sold. Their bodies and obedience might be owned, but they within their heart and spirit are not. I would say that the dictionary difinition of slave might be acurate. We use the word slave because it is erotic to think of one as total property without choice but in true essence, the full and complete ownership of anyone rests in the possesion of the will, choice, heart and inner being. Freely given.

Seeking that which fits...makes that which one may need, such as surrender..possible.

All in all, weather titled slave, submissive, bottom, Top, Dominant or Master. This is really all about being free to be who we are and what is required to bring that freedom into being.

I actually hate labels, definitions etc...Take away from truth.

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

RE: Slaves with requirements... - 1/26/2009 6:48:42 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kyraofMists

quote:

ORIGINAL: WinsomeDefiance
To those who ARE owned slaves: Did YOU consider yourself a slave prior to being bagged and tagged?

Nope. For us, saying that I am a slave means that I am in a relationship where someone else has complete authority over me. Until I entered that relationship, I was only someone who desired to submit to the will of my partner.

Knight's Kyra

and then I banged her and tagged her!

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