RE: Being "honest" or telling Dominant what He/She wants to hear (Full Version)

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OsideGirl -> RE: Being "honest" or telling Dominant what He/She wants to hear (1/9/2006 6:47:46 PM)

We've run into this alot in our search for a third. We will ask questions trying to learn about WHO she is as a person and the answers we get are D/s platitudes. We'll give it several attempts and explain what we're asking, and we'll still get the platitiudes. At that point we walk away.

I have the advantage of being platonic friends with Master for years before we ever dated, so communication was already established before our relationship.



newflowers -> RE: Being "honest" or telling Dominant what He/She wants to hear (1/9/2006 7:03:42 PM)

quote:

What does work, for me, is a matter of framing things in terms of meaning . If my dominant wants me to eat white bread while I have become accustomed to only eating whole grain breads and shunning white bread for the sake of my health, it is not a matter of my simply saying "yes" to the question "Do you want to eat white bread?" but rather a matter of my deciding that I want to eat white bread for him more than I want to eat whole grain bread for myself . So,no, I am not to say "yes" unless I mean it. And the way I am able to say yes honestly is to frame it so that it is not a choice between wheat bread and white bread, but a choice between pleasing him and acting of my own will.


i find this to be an extraordinary and most interesting analogy. while i understand the concept of the choice being acting of your will and that of your partner, i do find it curious. a long time ago, i loved someone this much and still would have said that whole grain bread it better for him as well. i understand the bread is not the issue -

what happens for you in pleasing him over acting of your own will when you know he is wrong?

For the submissives/slaves - do you feel free to respond with your own opinion when you know he is wrong? Do you agree because you place his will over yours?

For the dominants/masters - are you comfortable or is your *s* allowed to disagree when you are wrong? how do you respond to this?

newflowers



caitlyn -> RE: Being "honest" or telling Dominant what He/She wants to hear (1/9/2006 7:14:29 PM)

I prefer, in a relationship, to never take a stand one way or the other. I can't be accused of lying, nor am I telling anyone what they want to hear ... as I am in fact telling them nothing at all.

There is a certain remarkable simplicity to this approach ... either that, or I'm just keeping relationship partners off balance, and/or can't stand boring relationships.

The erudite readers should choose which option, serves them best. [;)]



justheather -> RE: Being "honest" or telling Dominant what He/She wants to hear (1/9/2006 7:31:13 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: newflowers


what happens for you in pleasing him over acting of your own will when you know he is wrong?

newflowers


This is an excellent point/question. I knew I liked you when I read your initial post.
I dont mean to beg the question, but I must point out that my foremost requirement that I held when searching for a dominant was that he possess far above-average intelligences of several different types. I did this because I knew that the only way that I would be able to trust a dominant with my will would be if I knew he were more intelligent than I am.
That said, no, I am not dating God.
So, you are very wise to bring up this point. (Yes, wheat bread is healthier than white bread for both of us.) And I am fortunate enough to enjoy the type of relationship where my opinion is heard and valued and considered and weighed - one most convenient coincidence is that my dominant also holds incredibly high standards when it comes to the intelligence of his partners (ok I know that makes me sound arrogant, but those are his words). That helps. It also helps that we are able to turn up and town down the D/s dynamic, at his discretion, so that there exists within our private life a place where we are both free to communicate honestly about what it is that we desire, believe, and prefer.
I think it helps that my partner is a. very intelligent, b. like me in his world-view, c. highly intuitive (for a guy :-) ) and emotionally healthy and d. not delusional.
People are, in fact, still wrong sometimes, though. You are correct.
When it comes to decisions of weight, I believe that gestures of submission (the manner inwhich I approach him, the language that I choose to use, the timing of my approach, the outward expression of the attitude of my heart at the time - and I wish to be clear that I am not talking about manipulation here, but rather a sense of deference that is a genuine and heartfelt conscious choice) can be enough of an act of submission that my coming forth to say " i believe that you are wrong" for the sake OF THE RELATIONSHIP or OUR MUTUAL BENEFIT and not my own ego, does not threaten the integrity of our chosen dynamic while allowing room for my assertion that a different choice may be more beneficial for the sake of us.
But this would have to do more with my desire to put what-is-us first than to put myself first, and so, in my opinion, Im still acting from a place of submission. I know that in my own relationship, a concern brought forth in this manner would not only be valued for its own sake but the manner inwhich it was carefully presented would also be valued as an act of submission.
But, then, Im a damn lucky girl.


(...i tried to edit for run-on-sentences, but, I give up...)



MsIncognito -> RE: Being "honest" or telling Dominant what He/She wants to hear (1/9/2006 8:12:05 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: justheather


quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyCompassion

One man once told me something that has stuck in my mind and I think it relates to this. He said that "when I ask you if you like it you should say yes and mean it" (within reason of safety and such ). So he is saying that you should answer to please your Master/Mistress but you should also mean it because it is pleasing to Him or Her.


If my dominant wants me to eat white bread while I have become accustomed to only eating whole grain breads and shunning white bread for the sake of my health, it is not a matter of my simply saying "yes" to the question "Do you want to eat white bread?" but rather a matter of my deciding that I want to eat white bread for him more than I want to eat whole grain bread for myself . So,no, I am not to say "yes" unless I mean it. And the way I am able to say yes honestly is to frame it so that it is not a choice between wheat bread and white bread, but a choice between pleasing him and acting of my own will.
If I can honestly say "yes" in those terms, it is no longer about whether or not I want to eat white bread. Therefore, I am able to answer honestly because I want to do what pleases him more than


But do you LIKe it and MEAN it? Notice how the part you quoted didn't actually ask if you WANTED to do it (that was a forgone conclusion) but it talked about actually LIKING it. Just because you want to eat white bread for him more than you want to eat whole grain bread for yourself doesn't mean you like eating white bread and I think that's what Lady Compassion was saying. What I got from her statement was that it's not enough to want to do it for them because it pleases them you have to go one step further and like it. While it may be easy to say "Oh yes, it's just a matter of framing it so that if he likes it then I like it because it pleases him" but in reality there's a whole lot of things Doms ask of their submissives that goes way beyond ingesting bland white bread. You might be asked to ingest something significantly less palatable - and LIKE it.

Totally as an aside: Kinda reminds me of that geriatric character on Saturday Night Live (back in the days when it was still funny) who'd go on long diatribes about walking 10 miles, uphill in both directions, in winter, through the snow, with no boots...."and we LIKED it!" [:D]



newflowers -> RE: Being "honest" or telling Dominant what He/She wants to hear (1/9/2006 8:20:59 PM)

quote:

This is an excellent point/question. I knew I liked you when I read your initial post.
I dont mean to beg the question, but I must point out that my foremost requirement that I held when searching for a dominant was that he possess far above-average intelligences of several different types.


then we shall have a mutual admiration society of two - i asked because your response was well articulated and coherent. i most appreciate your point about his "intelligences" - plural. your statements about the intelligence of the both of you - this is not arrogant - it is fact for you; false modesty is a sincere form of hypocrisy. and i understand - one of the requirements i have for a partner is that be more than me - stronger, etc. but also more intelligent - it is necessary.

thanks for answering my question.

newflowers



DesertRat -> RE: Being "honest" or telling Dominant what He/She wants to hear (1/9/2006 8:28:39 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: newflowers

quote:

What does work, for me, is a matter of framing things in terms of meaning . If my dominant wants me to eat white bread while I have become accustomed to only eating whole grain breads and shunning white bread for the sake of my health, it is not a matter of my simply saying "yes" to the question "Do you want to eat white bread?" but rather a matter of my deciding that I want to eat white bread for him more than I want to eat whole grain bread for myself . So,no, I am not to say "yes" unless I mean it. And the way I am able to say yes honestly is to frame it so that it is not a choice between wheat bread and white bread, but a choice between pleasing him and acting of my own will.


i find this to be an extraordinary and most interesting analogy. while i understand the concept of the choice being acting of your will and that of your partner, i do find it curious. a long time ago, i loved someone this much and still would have said that whole grain bread it better for him as well. i understand the bread is not the issue -

what happens for you in pleasing him over acting of your own will when you know he is wrong?

For the submissives/slaves - do you feel free to respond with your own opinion when you know he is wrong? Do you agree because you place his will over yours?

For the dominants/masters - are you comfortable or is your *s* allowed to disagree when you are wrong? how do you respond to this?

newflowers


Yes, I am comfortable with my slave disagreeing if she thinks I'm wrong about something. Further, I am cool with it leading to a discussion of the issue. In fact, I encourage and even expect input from her. Two heads are better than one, right? If we can resolve it to the point of agreement, all the better. If we can't, well, the final decision is mine to make....even if I'm messing up.

That said, when I see that I have indeed screwed up, I admit it and do what I can to remedy the situation...apologizing, disassembling and reassembling, making a U-turn, or whatever....

Bob



LuckyAlbatross -> RE: Being "honest" or telling Dominant what He/She wants to hear (1/9/2006 8:34:54 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: OsideGirl

We've run into this alot in our search for a third. We will ask questions trying to learn about WHO she is as a person and the answers we get are D/s platitudes. We'll give it several attempts and explain what we're asking, and we'll still get the platitiudes. At that point we walk away.

I have the advantage of being platonic friends with Master for years before we ever dated, so communication was already established before our relationship.

Which sadly is only perpetuated by the number of doms who give "essay assignments" like candy to new subs to get them to write essays on "what is submission" and the like which just fills them up with more platitudes about power, surrender, etc, and no sincere comprehension or internalization.



BlkTallFullfig -> RE: Being "honest" or telling Dominant what He/She wants to hear (1/9/2006 8:35:36 PM)

I like honesty, as long as it is delivered in a tactful and respectful way. M



newflowers -> RE: Being "honest" or telling Dominant what He/She wants to hear (1/9/2006 9:19:09 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: BlkTallFullfig

I like honesty, as long as it is delivered in a tactful and respectful way. M


At what point does the condition on honesty become an issue? i belieive that in the course of introductory conversation - even conversation with intent - while one may be polite, it is not necessarily the same deference shown to a dominant partner. i consider everything before an official "we are a committed item" introductory dancing.

Do you expect the same deference from someone you are speaking to as that you would expect from a partner within a committed relationship?

newflowers



cloudboy -> RE: Being "honest" or telling Dominant what He/She wants to hear (1/9/2006 9:30:52 PM)


"The artlessness of unadorned truth, however sure in theory of extorting admiration, rarely in practice fails inflicting pain and mortification."

Fanny Burney

"God offers every mind its choice between truth and repose. Take which you please, you can never have both."

Emmerson



cravinspankin -> RE: Being "honest" or telling Dominant what He/She wants to hear (1/9/2006 9:37:14 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyCompassion

One man once told me something that has stuck in my mind and I think it relates to this. He said that "when I ask you if you like it you should say yes and mean it" (within reason of safety and such ). So he is saying that you should answer to please your Master/Mistress but you should also mean it because it is pleasing to Him or Her.


When the Dom i'm seeing now asks me if i like something, i'll be totally honest. Sometimes, that meant saying, No, Sir, i don't like 'whatever' but i accept it because it pleases You."



BlkTallFullfig -> RE: Being "honest" or telling Dominant what He/She wants to hear (1/9/2006 9:46:26 PM)

quote:

Do you expect the same deference from someone you are speaking to as that you would expect from a partner within a committed relationship?
I expect that kind of deference from anyone interested in entering into or remaining in a relationship with me. The general public's honesty I don't worry about much, and the people I love treat me with kindness and respect (the way I do them) even when delivering an honest message. M



BlkTallFullfig -> RE: Being "honest" or telling Dominant what He/She wants to hear (1/9/2006 10:42:22 PM)

quote:

For the dominants/masters - are you comfortable or is your *s* allowed to disagree when you are wrong? how do you respond to this?
Of course my sub is allowed to disagree; I love to learn, and love a man who's smart enough to teach me things I don't know, as long as he is kind/respectful in his delivery, otherwise, I'd tell him exactly where he can shove his honesty, lol.
quote:

"The artlessness of unadorned truth, however sure in theory of extorting admiration, rarely in practice fails inflicting pain and mortification."
Fanny Burney



veronicaofML -> RE: Being "honest" or telling Dominant what He/She wants to hear (1/9/2006 11:34:00 PM)

familiar?

nope
I am as honest as the day is light...and night is dark.

"I" am not telling ANYONE what I think they want to hear...NO ONE!

if you aint adult enough to accept my honest answers,,,then you are telling me ya want me to lie...and "I" REFUSE to lie !!!




ExistentialSteel -> RE: Being "honest" or telling Dominant what He/She wants to hear (1/10/2006 2:39:09 AM)

I do not want an oily, sycophantic slave supporting me when dealing with others, no matter what the medium. My slave who posts on here sometimes, ChainedExistence, is intelligent and opinonated. She lives near me and we debate art, history and politics. I value her opinions and when she rarely falls into the trap of blindly supporting me out of loyalty, I remind her that is not what I want.

In private, I have noticed that I was much more tolerant of her views of D/s when we first met while, now, I tend to steer things my way. There are many ways to say why I do this, but it comes down to something like I know what is best for the relationship and intensity. She may comment on something and I will listen attentively, but she doesn't win these matters often.



sweetpettjenny -> RE: Being "honest" or telling Dominant what He/She wants to hear (1/10/2006 2:50:30 AM)

If its something i don't particularly like and he wants or wants to do to me , i am his slave , there are tactful ways , like saying " Master if you want it , as long as you are happy with it i am too. They normally can read between the lines and know you dislike it or are afraid of it. I personally know he would know , because if i enjoyed or wanted it , id be bent over or jumping to do it instead of talking. Communication is key, and i know there are going to be things he wants that i don't...i submitted as his slave which means i do as he wishes.



MasterLark -> RE: Being "honest" or telling Dominant what He/She wants to hear (1/10/2006 3:18:54 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: justheather

<snip>
When it comes to decisions of weight, I believe that gestures of submission (the manner inwhich I approach him, the language that I choose to use, the timing of my approach, the outward expression of the attitude of my heart at the time - and I wish to be clear that I am not talking about manipulation here, but rather a sense of deference that is a genuine and heartfelt conscious choice) can be enough of an act of submission that my coming forth to say " i believe that you are wrong" for the sake OF THE RELATIONSHIP or OUR MUTUAL BENEFIT and not my own ego, does not threaten the integrity of our chosen dynamic while allowing room for my assertion that a different choice may be more beneficial for the sake of us.
But this would have to do more with my desire to put what-is-us first than to put myself first, and so, in my opinion, Im still acting from a place of submission. I know that in my own relationship, a concern brought forth in this manner would not only be valued for its own sake but the manner inwhich it was carefully presented would also be valued as an act of submission.
But, then, Im a damn lucky girl.


Lots of insight points here. Thank you.

I presume honesty is critical to all relationships, so I have no debate with that matter. The complexity I am trying to articulate is in part reflected in justheather's comments and in the comments about the struggle with knowing one's free will as a slave.

In this scenario, my assumption is that the sub/slave has been in a relationship for "awhile" and so is not new to it. As the sub/slave learns how to please her Master and understand her own submission, there may be a point of confusion internally where her "old self," so to speak, resists going deeper, in order to be "honest" with herself, while her emerging "slave self" has been learning "the gestures of submission" in an honest expressive way and is ready to reach a deeper submission. There is a point where she may be confused about whether it is "more honest" to please her Master or revert to her "old self" view of her honesty as she knew it then. There is this internal battle within her when she is not sure which "honesty" is true now for her. It strikes me as a crossroads moment, when she can breakthrough to more fully embrace being a sub/slave and be honest with herself in that way or decide, for whatever reasons, she is best to revert to her "old self" and at least for this Master it is "honest" not move further.

I want to better understand this internal battle within her because I see it as real and more common than not among subs/slaves.



Sensualips -> RE: Being "honest" or telling Dominant what He/She wants to hear (1/10/2006 3:20:05 AM)

quote:

I prefer, in a relationship, to never take a stand one way or the other. I can't be accused of lying, nor am I telling anyone what they want to hear ... as I am in fact telling them nothing at all.


I have an opinion on this post.



strikingpeach -> RE: Being "honest" or telling Dominant what He/She wants to hear (1/10/2006 3:32:08 AM)

I always assume that if my Dom asks me a question, that he wants an honest answer. What he does with the information he is given is for him to decide. If he asks me if my knees are getting tired from kneeling and I answer "yes, a bit", then it is up to him to use that informatin for his own pleasure...he can choose to let me stand up or he can choose to let them get more tired.

sp



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