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RE: Why is it that most Dommes want subs that are "... - 2/16/2009 2:52:09 PM   
undergroundsea


Posts: 2400
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From: Austin, TX
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Andalusite
It's not that it's expected of him, precisely, more that if he doesn't do it, I have a harder time thinking of him as a gentleman, just as if he doesn't open doors for me.


Thanks for your post. You raise a good point.

I have agreed in prior posts that there are good, practical reasons for a man to pick up the tab. The point I dispute about picking up the tab is when there is a sense of entitlement as if doing so is not a good gesture but a duty for a guy.

I agree with your point about a strike. These matters are grey more than black and white. If a guy does not take the tab but has treated you well otherwise, I imagine this strike is offset by other components. However, if general treatment is outside how you like to be treated, this strike is one amongst different issues that superimpose.

The same is true from the other end. When someone extends a courteous gesture to me, I think it is polite to show appreciation for the gesture and to somehow return the spirit of it. I feel this way at each end of the courtesy. Whether or not such return of courtesy occurs affects my overall impression of a woman. A sense of entitlement by itself comes across to me as a strike and what significance it has depends on how it fits in the bigger picture and overall behavior.

Cheers,

Sea

(in reply to Andalusite)
Profile   Post #: 541
RE: Why is it that most Dommes want subs that are "... - 2/16/2009 3:04:33 PM   
Andalusite


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That's it exactly - I won't refuse to date him over it, just as if he doesn't offer to open the door for me. It's more of a point in his favour if he does so, and if he combines several things that are borderline like that, especially if he is also pushy in a sexual or BDSM fashion, it can put me off. Nobody's going to be an absolutely perfect fit in all respects, and I don't expect guys to be mindreaders.

< Message edited by Andalusite -- 2/16/2009 3:05:14 PM >

(in reply to undergroundsea)
Profile   Post #: 542
RE: Why is it that most Dommes want subs that are "... - 2/16/2009 3:21:13 PM   
FullfigRIMAAM1


Posts: 1160
Joined: 11/20/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: undergroundsea
I have agreed in prior posts that there are good, practical reasons for a man to pick up the tab. The point I dispute about picking up the tab is when there is a sense of entitlement as if doing so is not a good gesture but a duty for a guy
It's not about entitlement...   It's a courtship ritual.   If a guy asks me out to dinner, and can afford to pay for it, but asks me to split the bill, it would be our first and last date.    If I ask a guy to dinner, than I'm prepared to pay for it, and grab the check when it comes.

quote:

If a guy does not take the tab but has treated you well otherwise, I imagine this strike is offset by other components. However, if general treatment is outside how you like to be treated, this strike is one amongst different issues that superimpose
A guy not taking the tab, to me means he is cheap, and thinks of courtship as a matter of tit for tat.    I would take the tab, but again, things would go downhill fast; because from that day forward, I would look for a reason he did not pick up the tab, other than he's too cheap to do it.    If a man is not generous with the little things, he is surely not going to be generous with other things, like his love, major decisions, and his time...  In my experience usually.

quote:

The same is true from the other end. When someone extends a courteous gesture to me, I think it is polite to show appreciation for the gesture and to somehow return the spirit of it. I feel this way at each end of the courtesy. Whether or not such return of courtesy occurs affects my overall impression of a woman. A sense of entitlement by itself comes across to me as a strike and what significance it has depends on how it fits in the bigger picture and overall behavior.

Cheers,
Sea
I disagree.    I have a ?friend like this.    Whenever I do something for her, because I feel like it, she has to find something to do for me, as if to repay; and whenever she spontaneously does something for me, I can be sure that a request for a favor is soon to follow.   I try to avoid her as much as possible, because I cannot stand that much cynicism.
If I give someone something, the only thing I would like in return, is Thank You.    If I give, it's because it pleases me, and when I receive, I do so with an open heart, and no sense of duty, but simple apreciation for another's generosity.     M

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The place to improve the world is first in one's own heart and head and hands.-Robert M. Persig

Love is the only sane and satisfactory answer to the problem of human existence Erich Fromm

(in reply to undergroundsea)
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RE: Why is it that most Dommes want subs that are "... - 2/16/2009 3:38:43 PM   
PeonForHer


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Oh M, no criticism of you personally - it's a general feeling I have about this whole subject.  It goes back to manners and etiquette.  Those things are quite subtle and aren't best served by dissection on a forum.  For what it's worth, I think if I were to meet you or Andalusite, I feel confident that you'd both act like ladies.  If I were to meet Sea, I'm sure he'd act like a proper gent. 

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RE: Why is it that most Dommes want subs that are "... - 2/16/2009 4:20:00 PM   
TranceTara


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quote:

ORIGINAL: undergroundsea

quote:

ORIGINAL: TranceTara
For me, reciprocation can be in a variety of ways.


I agree. I have made some references to reciprocating at least the spirit of gesture. If the gift represents good will and sincerity, then that is the spirit of gesture which may be returned through a similar gesture or different gestures.

In my opinion, what I describe applies to most social relationships. Usually it is not that when one extends a warm gesture, one starts a stop watch to see when that particular gesture is returned. However, if there is an imbalance in gestures or good will flowing in the two directions, one begins to notice, and it affects what one is then willing to extend. I think what matters is the overall balance. Each person has a role in whether another is satisfied in the relationship (at whatever stage) between the two.

Cheers,

Sea


Perhaps I could have been more specific. For me the reciprocation could be seeing a big smile, or ever a tear if the gift touches the person I give it to. Or perhaps they reciprocate by giving to someone else, or being there for someone else.

And yes, if it feels I give and give and it is expected of me then I am less likely to want to give more. But, I am not attracting those people into my life any more. And for me, one's time is one of the most precious gifts for so many have such little time these days.

And, I agree with with Peon about affection. That is a very important thing for me.


quote:

LaTigresse

I agree Panda. The fact is, some things are right for some people, many things are not right for many people.

Then again, there is my second sig line inspired by threads like this.
Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!


I am reminded of that great quote: "You can please some of the people all of the time, you can please all of the people some of the time, (though lately I wonder about this)but you can't please all of the people all of the time." And, in a relationship of any kind, whether vanilla, friendship, BDSM, M/s or D/s, well sometimes there will be disagreement and a feeling of needs not being met. Each will have their way of resolving it.

I love that second sig of yours. I hope you don't mind if I write it down to take to work with me and keep a copy in my pocket when I get the know it all customers. I just bow to their superior intelligence and do my job. In my company, the customer is always right, but I prefer your corollary. Thank you! :-)


_____________________________


“Listen, I am trying to cope with the presence of God and the Universal Human Experience, and I haven’t even had a cup of tea yet!” -French and Saunders


(in reply to undergroundsea)
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RE: Why is it that most Dommes want subs that are "... - 2/16/2009 4:37:23 PM   
TranceTara


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quote:

ShaktiSama

Honestly, thinking back to the original post and the original issue, with none of the intervening issues: if I had the ability to cover my boykin's expenses completely while he is going to college, I think I would do it gladly.  I don't do it because I can't, not because I won't.  I suspect that if money were more freely available to most dominant women, they would be more relaxed about supporting their submissive partners and achieving a higher quality of life for the household--just as Akasha does.


quote:

ShaktiSama
I can't help but wonder whether the fact that women make so much less money on average than men do tends to skew the results that might come up if things were absolutely equal. When a woman hears about a man with no money, she immediately cannot help but think of him as a "burden"--rather than a luxury, a trophy or a treat that she should give herself because she wants and deserves to own her very own slut.


Thanks for that perspective. When one loves and cares about another and they have the means, why not be there? Also, we never know what life will throw in our path.

A woman I work with is happily married and she (who was pregnant at the time) her husband and two children were in their car and had a horrendous accident about one and a half years ago. Luckily all survived, the fetus was not injured, but her husband is now a bedridden quadraplegic who cannot do anything for himself and must be fed and changed. Did she plan on this when getting married? No. Also, she gave birth to twins soon after the accident.

Then, a few months ago, she was diagnosed with cancer and had to have a hysterectomy, yet, she is back at work smiling and supporting her family. She has extended family that helped her, yes, but in my book she is a woman of courage, grace and integrity.

Ah, but then again, it's never a crime to have a trophy either. When life hands you such a 'luxury', then 'make' champagne and have him/her serve it to you. )


_____________________________


“Listen, I am trying to cope with the presence of God and the Universal Human Experience, and I haven’t even had a cup of tea yet!” -French and Saunders


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Profile   Post #: 546
RE: Why is it that most Dommes want subs that are "... - 2/16/2009 9:45:29 PM   
FullfigRIMAAM1


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Peon's thinking *oh no, not again!*

I agree, and have a feeling that if we ever ran into you and Sea, that we'd not be disappointed in your behavior in the least...  Especially since you guys would know we'd come back and post it (as long as the meeting wasn't private/personal  level).     M

_____________________________

The place to improve the world is first in one's own heart and head and hands.-Robert M. Persig

Love is the only sane and satisfactory answer to the problem of human existence Erich Fromm

(in reply to PeonForHer)
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RE: Why is it that most Dommes want subs that are "... - 2/16/2009 10:57:59 PM   
Andalusite


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Peon, I wouldn't make any fuss over it either way, any up/down ticks tend to stay in my own head. I can be tactful.

Hmm, when I go dancing or out to dinner with one or more of my gay friends, they almost always open doors for me, hold my hand when we're making our way through a crowd, buy me drinks (I'm usually the designated driver, so non-alcoholic and relatively cheap, though they'll willingly cover alcohol if the logistics allow for it), and pay for my food, though I usually pay my own admission into the dance and cover gas. I've offered to take turns or "go dutch," but the general consensus is "My mom would be mad at me if I let you pay for yourself, she raised me to be a gentleman." I figure if a guy can't be arsed to treat me at least as well as my gay friends, who would only want to get into my pants if they'd fit and look cute on them, it would be pretty pointless to get involved with him!

< Message edited by Andalusite -- 2/16/2009 10:58:38 PM >

(in reply to FullfigRIMAAM1)
Profile   Post #: 548
RE: Why is it that most Dommes want subs that are "... - 2/17/2009 2:13:13 AM   
undergroundsea


Posts: 2400
Joined: 6/27/2004
From: Austin, TX
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quote:

ORIGINAL: 4u2spoil
With due respect to your questions, saying that Akasha's friend likely expects generosity in one direction because it's part of a norm is an answer. Why the norm exists, why more people don't go against the norm are all valid questions. But in the spirit of the original question of why Dommes want someone financially stable, to later why women want men who are able to and do give gifts, the question has been pretty thoroughly answered.


There have been other questions aside from the original question that have been asked or answered in this thread. The question on which I focus specifically is why some consider it a duty of a man (versus a positive gesture) to make material offerings in one direction. Your explanation--that it is a norm--gives one possible answer about from where Akasha's friend derives her thinking. I do not ask from where she derives her thinking but whether her thinking is justified and, for me, the norm explanation is not an adequate answer.

To take your Saudi Arabia example, a given woman there might be treated like property by her husband and, perhaps, beaten. If one asks why her husband thinks he can treat her this way, the answer of your type--that it is a cultural norm--might explain from where he derives his thinking. If one instead means whether it is reasonable of her husband to have such thinking, some people will think the cultural norm is adequate justification, some will dispute this thinking and dismiss the cultural norm answer. In my opinion, saying it is a cultural norm is not an adequate justification.

quote:

but I wouldn't ask why norms of men being the dominant partner exist, or why norms of men being stronger than women exist.  I never said a norm is an absolute, but because you don't subscribe to it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.


I don't see your analogy to apply. Our society has asked many times why the norm of men being the dominant partner exists, and has abandoned many such norms. Norms are not beyond question.

I don't suggest the norm you describe does not exist. Instead I have said that offering the norm as an explanation to my question does not provide me an answer that satisfies me intellectually. If your answer is that it is the norm, then my question is that why is this norm held. Of the answers given for why the norm is held, I have not seen one with which I resonate intellectually. If you think a particular explanation for why the norm is held holds merit, I will clarify why it does not resonate with me.

I think what is the norm itself is getting blurred. I am not focusing on whether or not a man should treat on the first date. I focus on the attitude that it is a duty (versus a positive gesture) of a man to give unidirectionally whenever such an attitude is held.

quote:


I don't know, you took away my cautious tag, so what do I have left :-P


I find your expectation that people who do not share your view should not call you a gold-digger to be incongruent with your position that someone who does not share your view is cheap.

quote:

So no, even though I often reciprocate I'm not an advocate of the "it's only okay if both people get something" either. If I give something to someone, I don't do it out of duty, but I also don't do it with expectation of them extending a positive gesture (beyond a thank you) in return.


You describe a scenario of giving as a thoughtful gesture, not duty, which is how I think it should be for everyone. I question the scenario where the giving is seen as a duty. I expect you would feel differently if one acted as if it was your duty to give to them and circumstances did not make it so. And I expect your willingness to give would be affected if they did not eventually reciprocate your good-will gestures somehow--energy can flow in one direction only for so long.

quote:

If someone treats me to dinner, or buys something I've asked for (and especially something I haven't asked for), I thank them and appreicate the gesture, but I don't feel obligated to extend anything to them for it.


Yes, it is nice or polite to reciprocate but you are not obligated to do so. I make the same point about the initiating gesture that you do about the reciprocating gesture.

Towards reciprocating, when someone does something nice for me, I don't go, oh shit, they did something nice for me. Now I'm stuck having to reciprocate somehow. Instead, I feel appreciation and I take various approaches to expressing this appreciation and reciprocating the good will. And it's not something that has to happen right there and then. I don't say, oh hey, you just did something nice for me. Now let me give you a shoulder rub before the moment fades. However, at some point I will do something nice in turn. And then I might do something else that is nice. It is not a point by point barter but it is a two way flow. And it is the sentiment or the spirit which is being reciprocated versus a single action.

If you agree that it is a two way flow, I am curious how you reciprocate in your relationships. You like to receive gifts as gestures of fondness. How do your submissives see the fondness you feel for them? Do they not use the modes of expression you use?

What your vanilla date did was lame. He thought that it was your duty to give him sex (replace with monetary offering). Because you did not give him what he thought was your duty, he acted as if you did not deserve a second date. His attitude was focused on whether or not you were giving him sex (replace with monetary offering). Perhaps he thought it was the norm for you to give him sex. Perhaps he thought that whether or not you gave him sex was a measure of his masculinity or social worth. Still, neither of these reasons justifies what he did. In some ways, I see his attitude to be similar to the attitude to which I object.

Cheers,

Sea

(in reply to 4u2spoil)
Profile   Post #: 549
RE: Why is it that most Dommes want subs that are "... - 2/17/2009 2:31:30 AM   
undergroundsea


Posts: 2400
Joined: 6/27/2004
From: Austin, TX
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quote:

ORIGINAL: FullfigRIMAAM1
I disagree.    I have a ?friend like this.    Whenever I do something for her, because I feel like it, she has to find something to do for me, as if to repay; and whenever she spontaneously does something for me, I can be sure that a request for a favor is soon to follow.   I try to avoid her as much as possible, because I cannot stand that much cynicism.
If I give someone something, the only thing I would like in return, is Thank You.    If I give, it's because it pleases me, and when I receive, I do so with an open heart, and no sense of duty, but simple apreciation for another's generosity.     M


What you describe is not what I have in mind when I speak of reciprocation. Another post I have made sheds more light on my perspective about reciprocation and I hope it clarifies the matter a bit more for you.

I believe in a two-way flow and details of how this flow is effected depends on the level of relationships.

Cheers,

Sea

(in reply to FullfigRIMAAM1)
Profile   Post #: 550
RE: Why is it that most Dommes want subs that are "... - 2/17/2009 2:34:03 AM   
undergroundsea


Posts: 2400
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From: Austin, TX
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quote:

ORIGINAL: AAkasha
HOWEVER :  I strongly believe that once a man is relating to a woman as a dominant partner or potential, he should expect that on some levels his freedom, his rights, his desires, his expectations WILL be comproised for hers on HER terms (not his fantasy terms). 


I agree that as a relationship grows, one usually does and may be expected to increase the level of submission. However, sometimes this expectation exists at broad levels from the first word.

Consent is an equal right. A submissive cannot unilaterally define in which ways the relationship must function, but he can define what he is willing to do and what he is not willing to do. A submissive who does not submit in a manner you wish is not compatible with you. However, he is not vanilla or a deficient submissive. There is no one way for D/s relationships and the two people involved define their brand of BDSM.

Cheers,

Sea

(in reply to AAkasha)
Profile   Post #: 551
RE: Why is it that most Dommes want subs that are "... - 2/17/2009 2:42:04 AM   
PeonForHer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FullfigRIMAAM1

Peon's thinking *oh no, not again!*

I agree, and have a feeling that if we ever ran into you and Sea, that we'd not be disappointed in your behavior in the least...  Especially since you guys would know we'd come back and post it (as long as the meeting wasn't private/personal  level).     M


Damned right we'd know that.  Sea and I may have our respective faults, but being stupid isn't one of them.   However, I was wrong to say that this all boils down to manners and etiquette - there's more to it than that, evidently. 

[BTW that I compliment I paid you, Andalusite and Sea on your manners will cost you $10 each and I expect your checks by return.]

< Message edited by PeonForHer -- 2/17/2009 2:43:49 AM >


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Profile   Post #: 552
RE: Inspiration / was Why is it that most Dommes want s... - 2/17/2009 2:49:50 AM   
undergroundsea


Posts: 2400
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From: Austin, TX
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SthrnCom4t
I can relate to a lot of what Andalusite says below. I don't 'force' anyone to submit; what I do is much more subtle. I strive to be the best me possible, and then those submissives who are attracted, make that attraction known. From there, its a dance. If he's inspired, and respects me enough, and has natural inclinitions for submission, likely I'll be in the Dominant role before long. Sometimes that's been a play relationship, because the chemistry for more just wasn't there. In that case, he was bottoming and I was Topping. We didn't have committments to each other, except during our time together.

I think new submissives don't have the experience to know what they don't know. Chemistry is chemistry whether power exchange or vanilla. Dominants inspire submissives, and not just because we claim to be dominant. Personally, I'd rather have a boy who wasn't inclined to throw himself at every woman who hints at being a FemDom.


I appreciate your post and connect with such a perspective. I find the issues we discuss in this thread to be different in one-on-one relationships.

I think relationships work between people better than they do between roles. I think some of the comments we see, from myself and others, are directed against a faceless role. Some women take exception to the idea that a submissive (a faceless role) will not submit as they want and define limits on their control. Some men take exception to the idea that some women (a role) expect as a duty that that he volunteers. In practice, when these roles assume faces the situation becomes more personal and human. My submission is not driven by a sense of duty but how I feel about a woman. Any stretching I do comes less from a sense that a good submissive does this and that and more from wanting to do whatever for someone for whom I feel warmly. That against which I object with respect to a faceless role I might do happily for a person who inspires it. Similarly, in practice women are more open to adjusting or comprimising for a partner with whom they have familiarity than a faceless role.

Each case, whether it is a submissive giving greater submission or whether it is a domme who is letting go a certain aspect of control, represents some form of compromise. A faceless role has not earned this compromise which causes each side to hold their ground. In relationships, this compromise is earned.

Cheers,

Sea


(in reply to SthrnCom4t)
Profile   Post #: 553
RE: Why is it that most Dommes want subs that are "... - 2/17/2009 2:51:17 AM   
FullfigRIMAAM1


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Well, no once can accuse you of being too pricey to afford, at $10.    M

_____________________________

The place to improve the world is first in one's own heart and head and hands.-Robert M. Persig

Love is the only sane and satisfactory answer to the problem of human existence Erich Fromm

(in reply to PeonForHer)
Profile   Post #: 554
RE: Why is it that most Dommes want subs that are "... - 2/17/2009 3:08:34 AM   
undergroundsea


Posts: 2400
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From: Austin, TX
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quote:

ORIGINAL: TranceTara
Perhaps I could have been more specific. For me the reciprocation could be seeing a big smile, or ever a tear if the gift touches the person I give it to. Or perhaps they reciprocate by giving to someone else, or being there for someone else.
 
And yes, if it feels I give and give and it is expected of me then I am less likely to want to give more.


In my response to your post, I included some comments that really belonged in a different post. For instance, the reference to a stop watch did not come from your comments but from how I perceive some other posters to interpret my comments about reciprocation.

I agree with your comment about the smile or a tear. When you appreciate someone, their happiness itself carries reward. Furthermore, the response you mention conveys appreciation versus taking the gesture for granted.

Unless the person has given me reason to wonder otherwise, I assume the person has good intentions--most people do. When one is dealing with a selfish person, that trait becomes evident in time. My sincerity flows more freely when I know the other person to also be sincere.

Cheers,

Sea

(in reply to TranceTara)
Profile   Post #: 555
RE: Why is it that most Dommes want subs that are "... - 2/17/2009 8:40:23 AM   
Andalusite


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Sea, I think you're missing the point of 4you2spoil's situation with the vanilla guy. The problem wasn't that he didn't want to go on a second date with her. The problem was that he scheduled a second date, had her come out to meet him, and deliberately tried to manipulate/pressure her into having sex with him under threat of being stranded. She was able to get out of it by calling a cab, but that's a *HECK* of a lot worse than just not going out again.

RIMAAM, if I were to meet Sea or Peon, since they're geographically incompatible with me, I wouldn't expect either of them to pay if we met, since it would be just as friends. It's still *nice* if friends offer, but I don't necessarily expect them to be chivalrous/gentlemanly, as long as I feel safe around them, and they're interesting to talk with or have similar interests. I completely understand what you meant about your friend - if every time someone does something nice for you, they demand almost an immediate return on their investment/reciprocation, you start thinking, "Uh oh, what does he/she want?" any time they do something sweet. It breeds suspicion, not reciprocation.



< Message edited by Andalusite -- 2/17/2009 8:50:50 AM >

(in reply to undergroundsea)
Profile   Post #: 556
RE: Why is it that most Dommes want subs that are "... - 2/17/2009 8:47:19 AM   
Lockit


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Hell... I don't want their money... I just want their body!  To paint, do fix it stuff around my house and then to beat on a lil tiny bit when they are done.  Is that too much to ask? hehe

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(in reply to Andalusite)
Profile   Post #: 557
RE: Why is it that most Dommes want subs that are "... - 2/17/2009 9:14:59 AM   
undergroundsea


Posts: 2400
Joined: 6/27/2004
From: Austin, TX
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Andalusite
Sea, I think you're missing the point of 4you2spoil's situation with the vanilla guy. The problem wasn't that he didn't want to go on a second date with her. The problem was that he scheduled a second date, had her come out to meet him, and deliberately tried to manipulate/pressure her into having sex with him under threat of being stranded. She was able to get out of it by calling a cab, but that's a *HECK* of a lot worse than just not going out again.


You are correct. My comparison does not do justice to the situation described.

Cheers,

Sea

(in reply to Andalusite)
Profile   Post #: 558
RE: Inspiration / was Why is it that most Dommes want s... - 2/17/2009 10:54:45 PM   
TranceTara


Posts: 152
Joined: 12/22/2008
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quote:

undergroundsea
My submission is not driven by a sense of duty but how I feel about a woman. Any stretching I do comes less from a sense that a good submissive does this and that and more from wanting to do whatever for someone for whom I feel warmly. That against which I object with respect to a faceless role I might do happily for a person who inspires it.


Yes, how beautifully put. I wish I had your gift for words! That's precisely how I feel.

That is one of the reasons I did not like hanging out in certain groups. Just because I might have a 'label' I use to let others know I am seeking a Dominant Woman in no way implies the right for those who label themselves 'Dominant' to treat me like a submissive. I must be inspired to be submissive for the One I choose to submit to. Yes, I am kind and courteous, but don't *expect* submission when I don't even know you.

I use what I am learning in reading up on the effective traits of leaders to get a very clear picture of the Dominant Woman I wish to attract. As a leader I need to inspire, empower, lead by example, etc. I expect the same from my Mistress. She must Master her emotions and reactions as I must mine in order to be an effective leader and submissive. I strive to take nothing for granted nor be taken for granted.

quote:

undergroundsea
Similarly, in practice women are more open to adjusting or comprimising for a partner with whom they have familiarity than a faceless role.


I can totally relate to that from my past experiences with Dommes online. Thank you for once again expressing my thoughts so eloquently.

Sláinte,
TT


_____________________________


“Listen, I am trying to cope with the presence of God and the Universal Human Experience, and I haven’t even had a cup of tea yet!” -French and Saunders


(in reply to undergroundsea)
Profile   Post #: 559
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