RE: What "Change"? (Not an Obama bashing thread)

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awmslave -> RE: What "Change"? (Not an Obama bashing thread) (4/4/2009 9:45:52 PM)
I see change. Fleecing of America: the government has officially and openly teamed up with big business.

FirmhandKY -> RE: What "Change"? (Not an Obama bashing thread) (4/4/2009 10:02:20 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: awmslave I see change. Fleecing of America: the government has officially and openly teamed up with big business. uhhh ... I thought that was what the "left" accused Bush and company of doing, and that the Democrats intended to change? Perhaps, not "teamed up with", but "taken control of" might be more accurate? Either way ... hasn't there always been a two-way incestuous relationship between big business and the government? Isn't this just a deeper aspect of the same thing? Many on the right claim that the entire housing bubble was a result of certain politicians mandating that Freddie Mac, and Fanny May should give loans to unqualified buyers, for their own (the politicians) own political reason. Both agencies where government corporations, federally insured. Who did they take their guidance from then? Who are they taking their guidance from now? How is the current TARP and bail outs any different, really, in the long run? Firm

subfever -> RE: What "Change"? (Not an Obama bashing thread) (4/4/2009 11:34:43 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TheHeretic To your question, the 'change' is from one set of idiots who thought they had it all figured out, to another. There's little for them to figure out, other than how to put on the most credible show for their audience as possible. BHO will continue to follow instructions from his masters, just as GWB did. BHO happens to be able to think quickly on his feet, and is smooth as silk in far more situations than not. So he can put on a more credible show than GWB can. Meanwhile, the PTB is well-aware that they've pushed forward their agendas a little too aggressively and transparently over the prior eight years. Now they'll take their foot off the pedal and ease off their acceleration for a while, in an effort to restore faith and confidence of the sheeple. They can't allow the natives to become too restless. GWB's primary act was to "protect" us from the evil boogeymen the PTB created. BHO primary act is to "save" us from the financial crisis that the PTB created. The movement towards complete tyranny will continue. The biggest "change" will be in the mindset of the sheeple. BHO will pacify far more of us than GWB did. Of course, many of those who frequent this board don't want to hear any of this, as it doesn't fall into the left vs. right paradigm that they've swallowed line, hook, and sinker. But then, it's hard for most adults to admit that they've been duped all of their lives. It easier to ignore all this, or even defend the status quo. The main job of the POTUS is theater, not leadership.

awmslave -> RE: What "Change"? (Not an Obama bashing thread) (4/5/2009 12:01:04 AM)
quote: How is the current TARP and bail outs any different, really, in the long run? The difference is in numbers. The transfer of such huge amount of public funds has never taken place before. I just can not call it anything else than grand theft. The TARP is total fraud. How Obama administration hopes to get away with it?

MasterShake69 -> RE: What "Change"? (Not an Obama bashing thread) (4/5/2009 12:31:14 AM)
Some Roman era architecture is still used today. Dont throw away brilliance just because of its age. The American constitution is the model for the rest of the world. quote: ORIGINAL: lronitulstahp quote: Try a Congress that doesnt respect 240 years of history of how their affairs are conducted, in order to push their socialist agenda. In 1865 there were a lot of people whining about how Abe Lincoln kept them from doing "business as usual" [8\|]. If any business was being run the same way folks did in 1776...well...all the feather plume pens and ink pots would get pretty messy...just sayin'

MasterShake69 -> RE: What "Change"? (Not an Obama bashing thread) (4/5/2009 12:35:04 AM)
Just follow the Obama campaign Donations for proof. People like Joseph cassano should be in jail. http://www.nydailynews.com/money/2009/03/17/2009-03-17_pin_aig_woes_on_brooklyn_boy_joseph_cass-1.html quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY quote: ORIGINAL: awmslave I see change. Fleecing of America: the government has officially and openly teamed up with big business. uhhh ... I thought that was what the "left" accused Bush and company of doing, and that the Democrats intended to change? Perhaps, not "teamed up with", but "taken control of" might be more accurate? Either way ... hasn't there always been a two-way incestuous relationship between big business and the government? Isn't this just a deeper aspect of the same thing? Many on the right claim that the entire housing bubble was a result of certain politicians mandating that Freddie Mac, and Fanny May should give loans to unqualified buyers, for their own (the politicians) own political reason. Both agencies where government corporations, federally insured. Who did they take their guidance from then? Who are they taking their guidance from now? How is the current TARP and bail outs any different, really, in the long run? Firm

Raiikun -> RE: What "Change"? (Not an Obama bashing thread) (4/5/2009 12:48:20 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Owner59 quote: ORIGINAL: Raiikun " as there are already wealthy people leaving the country. " Oh,and what paradice are they moving to?......lol Fuck`m.Don`t let the door hit`m where the good lord split`m. Except they're in the better position to say "fuck you" to the US. :p One friend I knew had a total tax obligation in the 7 digits in past years. This year his obligation to the US is zero. And it's not just people leaving the country - I know of a record store owner who had 2 stores, each open seven days a week; who as a result of the tax changes closed one store, fired 4 people, and now closes on weekends...and his take-home pay is barely hurt because he'll pay far less taxes and expenses. Just saying, big dramatic changes to how you treat the wealthy can backfire when it's the wealthy that are in a position to just bail out of our economy and take their money with them. And it wouldn't take that many to do it to wipe out any gains from the increased taxes on the wealthy.

Kirata -> RE: What "Change"? (Not an Obama bashing thread) (4/5/2009 12:59:23 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: lronitulstahp If any business was being run the same way folks did in 1776...well...all the feather plume pens and ink pots would get pretty messy...just sayin' Actually, more I think about it, you might have hit on an idea there. I bet the bills reaching the floor of the House and the Senate would be a helluva lot shorter. Can you imagine writing out the tax code in longhand with a quill pen? A lot of things would get real simple real quick. Congress might even read some of the stuff before it votes! What a concept, eh? K.

SilverMark -> RE: What "Change"? (Not an Obama bashing thread) (4/5/2009 4:49:20 AM)
It's funny to see the start of changes answered with supposition and predictions of failure by those, who if the thread was not a non-Obama bashing thread would be bashing with all of their might. Is there change yes....is it as fast as some would hope...No... Are there plans for healthcare....yes...if you agree or not, there is indeed a plan...are we continuing on our endless quest in Iraq...No...will troops remain yes, would it be the right move to remove them in total after we have basically wrecked the country....No Has the tenor of how we as a country speak to the rest of the world changed...yes...in the 8 years of the previous administration how much communication with the American people was there?....how often have we seen of the President in his short tenure.... Yes the bailouts continue, it seem that those that deal with the economy think it is pre-requisite to our recovery...is there now a plan for dealing with the toxic assets that have slowed our economy so badly...yes...was there one before? yes, but, then Paulsen decided that wasn't the thing to do...(I think he was wrong and mis-used the funds available) So, will it be faster...doubtful, the flaws within the system will not allow for rapid change...)thank your local idiot congressman....I certainly have plans to THANK mine)....Has there been change? yes...with more to come....will those who wish to bash Obama want it, agree with it or think it is good....unbelievably doubtful! Great effort Firm, and I appreciate your discipline in trying to not allow bashing in either direction.....good to see you back and hope your time in Vegas was both enjoyable and profitable.

FullCircle -> RE: What "Change"? (Not an Obama bashing thread) (4/5/2009 6:05:50 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY Your apparent conclusion that it was "Obama bashing" is because you have invested into Obama, and is not based on the facts, I would submit. That’s an opinion based on? quote: ORIGINAL: FullCircle The biggest change is the tone. quote: So you agree that it's not a substantive change? Firstly I'd say it's a little too early to tell how policy is changing since you can't suddenly stop the political reality that has been put in place by the previous administration. I could see change wasn't going to come overnight when the majority of advisors were kept on from the previous administration. The substantial change will come later when their game plan comes to an end. The general rule is it takes at least two years for policy changes to have an effect noticeable by people on the street. The bigger the organisation the slower it is to change regardless of the abruptness of policy change. quote: No more rendition? Obama preserves renditions as counter-terrorism tool As I recall he mentioned snatching people from other countries the USA didn't have an extradition treaty with in extreme circumstances. I hope you agree this is far removed from moving suspects to countries that condone torture to get information you need. The former is inevitable only the latter is rendition IMO. quote: no more cuban holiday camps Well, it's kinda still open ya know. As well .... Secret List of U.S. Military Bases to Replace Gitmo. Yes, dealing with the current 250 and with no indication anymore inmates will be added. You’ll notice the list contains prisons within the U.S. so they are given the same trial rights as US citizens, that was made clear previously. The whole point of the Cuba camp was to avoid the inconvenience of this giving people rights. If you don’t see that as a total change in attitude towards human rights then you’ll probably never understand why people on the left having been trumpeting the importance of this for the last eight years. quote: the realisation that war fought against sporadic groups can't be done solely via military options. Like invading Pakistan? Like increasing our Afghanistan troop levels? Like asking Europe for more soldiers to assist us? Would it be possible for troops to leave the region overnight? Since the problem has been created it needs to be dealt with in a responsible manner. I know nothing of the Pakistan invasion the last thing I heard was the planning to give Pakistan more financial aid to deal with the problem themselves. Also the Obama policy recognises the complete waste of the Iraq war and aims to focus more on Afghanistan. Nobody chose Iraq but the previous US administration and the UK government, once there the terrorists said “What a great place to kill Westerners.” so they flooded in.

MarsBonfire -> RE: What "Change"? (Not an Obama bashing thread) (4/5/2009 6:17:25 AM)
Oh, yeah, we should follow the money of campaign contributions... So how much money DID Obama take from Haliburton and Enron, anyway?

NorthernGent -> RE: What "Change"? (Not an Obama bashing thread) (4/5/2009 7:22:43 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY Are you saying that Obama's "new diplomacy" is pretty much no better than the old diplomacy, as far as results go? Much better and here's why...... The US government, and the British government for that matter, came out of that summit with pretty much as much as they could have hoped for. He's a far more shrewd operator than George Bush. He knows what he's got to do to get what he wants - for instance, let Sarkozy have his moment in the sun with the photo shoots and the dramatics......stroke his ego and you'll get what you want. Forget the 'fiscal stimulus' objective, which was always a red-herring (no decent negotiator will lay their cards on the table from the off). What has he achieved.?....with the help of his allies.... a) He has increased the standing of the United States. Rightly or wrongly, style or substance, people are impressed. He's laying the foundations for future gains; when he has people on board then I'm sure the United States government will be less flexible in their negotiations. b) He has already moved the German and French governments from their position (hitherto solid position) on Afghanistan. The first steps are always the hardest. c) He has reinforced the British government's support for the United States position. There is no reason why we should side with the US or the continental Europeans (we're different to both, and have no particular loyalty to either), but the US needs an ally in Europe; particularly as the French and German governments are forging an alliance based on shared values. d) He has helped stave off the protectionism proposed by France and other representatives (which was the key British concern, by the way). You may not like this, Firm, but political commentators (and I'm talking of serious political commentators who know their stuff), certainly in this country, are mightily impressed not just with Obama but the with the way the Americans pitched it. You'd have to be extremely naive to think Obama can stroll into a world summit and take everything while giving nothing back, and you know how it is - you have to lay the foundations for future gains.

OrionTheWolf -> RE: What "Change"? (Not an Obama bashing thread) (4/5/2009 7:25:52 AM)
I agree. I think everyone with wealth should leave the country. You have a good plan there O59. To the OP, still thinking and looking at some info before I respond. Though it seems slightly slanting, I think good intellectual discourse over things like this is what is needed. quote: ORIGINAL: Owner59 quote: ORIGINAL: Raiikun " as there are already wealthy people leaving the country. " Oh,and what paradice are they moving to?......lol Fuck`m.Don`t let the door hit`m where the good lord split`m.

Owner59 -> RE: What "Change"? (Not an Obama bashing thread) (4/5/2009 7:55:40 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: awmslave quote: How is the current TARP and bail outs any different, really, in the long run? The difference is in numbers. The transfer of such huge amount of public funds has never taken place before. I just can not call it anything else than grand theft. The TARP is total fraud. How Obama administration hopes to get away with it? Can you back that up with something other than your opinion?

FirmhandKY -> RE: What "Change"? (Not an Obama bashing thread) (4/5/2009 7:56:53 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MarsBonfire Oh, yeah, we should follow the money of campaign contributions... So how much money DID Obama take from Haliburton and Enron, anyway? Top Contributors This table lists the top donors to this candidate in the 2008 election cycle. The organizations themselves did not donate , rather the money came from the organization's PAC, its individual members or employees or owners, and those individuals' immediate families. Organization totals include subsidiaries and affiliates. University of California $1,385,675 Goldman Sachs $980,945 Microsoft Corp $806,299 Harvard University $793,460 Google Inc $790,564 Citigroup Inc $657,268 JPMorgan Chase & Co $650,758 Stanford University $580,904 Sidley Austin LLP $574,938 Time Warner $547,951 National Amusements Inc $541,251 WilmerHale $524,292 UBS AG $522,019 IBM Corp $518,557 Skadden, Arps et al $510,274 Columbia University $503,566 Morgan Stanley $490,873 US Government $479,956 General Electric $479,454 Latham & Watkins $467,311 Firm

FirmhandKY -> RE: What "Change"? (Not an Obama bashing thread) (4/5/2009 8:02:04 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf To the OP, still thinking and looking at some info before I respond. Thank you. Thoughtful replies are what I'm seeking. We all certainly see enough knee-jerk condemnation and support already. quote: ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf Though it seems slightly slanting, We all have our biases, but I tried to just set it up showing the similarities between the two Administrations in the "big picture" stuff. The links to Obama items was just to reinforce that similarity, not to condemn him for his actions. Firm

Owner59 -> RE: What "Change"? (Not an Obama bashing thread) (4/5/2009 8:03:01 AM)
So these weren`t inividual contributers? Nice spin. I guess you can say the non-union carpenters association gave him money too,(my fifty bucks).lol[8\|]

FullCircle -> RE: What "Change"? (Not an Obama bashing thread) (4/5/2009 8:03:31 AM)
It's astonishing a University tops the list, I wonder how that decision is in the best interest of students, or is that even a consideration at all? It's definitely a different culture.

FirmhandKY -> RE: What "Change"? (Not an Obama bashing thread) (4/5/2009 8:05:10 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Owner59 quote: ORIGINAL: awmslave quote: How is the current TARP and bail outs any different, really, in the long run? The difference is in numbers. The transfer of such huge amount of public funds has never taken place before. I just can not call it anything else than grand theft. The TARP is total fraud. How Obama administration hopes to get away with it? Can you back that up with something other than your opinion? First, how about you backing up your opinion that you first stated, and I questioned, before you go off and start .... digging? ... into other posters' motivation? Firm

lronitulstahp -> RE: What "Change"? (Not an Obama bashing thread) (4/5/2009 8:05:24 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MasterShake69 [sm=abducted.gif] Some Roman era architecture is still used today. Dont throw away brilliance just because of its age. The American constitution is the model for the rest of the world. quote: ORIGINAL: lronitulstahp quote: Try a Congress that doesnt respect 240 years of history of how their affairs are conducted, in order to push their socialist agenda. In 1865 there were a lot of people whining about how Abe Lincoln kept them from doing "business as usual" [8\|]. If any business was being run the same way folks did in 1776...well...all the feather plume pens and ink pots would get pretty messy...just sayin' Dude....seriously.............[image]http://www.collarchat.com/micons/m23.gif[/image]

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