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RE: Religion - 4/12/2009 11:05:25 PM

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quote:

Why do folks spend so much time talking about how and why they don't believe in religion? Are they trying to convince themselves that they are correct? Do they doubt their doubt? Which religion do they not believe?

fluffypet61

One can select any of a large number of "conventional" religions and surely any of a larger number and ask, "What if they are right? Do you want to take that chance?" But since many have contrary precepts and requirements, one can't play it safe and believe everything "just in case."

Conversely, what if a supreme being permitted the proliferation of wildly differing beliefs as a ruse, testing whether prospective afterlife denizens were gullible enough to believe the purpose of the religions was more than to provide a structure of morality and to satisfy man's need for significance. Add in a few infomercials like the Bible and the Koran to help sell the hoaxes. If this is true, wouldn't it be best, just in case, not to believe?

I am not describing my personal beliefs here, but rather describing why I don't respond to the "just in case" argument which may appear infinitely reasonable from a different perspective than mine.

Personally, I have come to accept religion as a template or guide for a relationship with your supreme being. Even within organized religion, each person has a very real and unique spiritual relationship which transcends dogma. This is what I believe. Thanks for sharing your views.

yours

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RE: Religion - 4/12/2009 11:38:07 PM

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To the OP:

Why did you not label your post "bashing religion"?
Or better yet ~ "bashing God"?

< Message edited by RealSub58 -- 4/12/2009 11:39:22 PM >

(in reply to FourQ)

RE: Religion - 4/12/2009 11:56:05 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Vendaval

Divinity does not concern Itself with Dogma.

I went to my faithful and trusty dictionary and found this in reference to dogma:
a doctrine or system of doctrines proclaimed by authority as true
a religious doctrine that is proclaimed as true without proof
1. A doctrine or a corpus of doctrines relating to matters such as morality and faith, set forth in an authoritative manner by a church.2. An authoritative principle, belief, or statement of ideas or opinion, especially one considered to be absolutely true. See Synonyms at doctrine. Doctrine is slightly different in www.thefreedictionary.com:
1. a body of teachings of a religious, political, or philosophical group 2. a principle or body of principles that is taught or advocated ~~a body or set of principles or tenets; doctors collectively.
1. A principle or body of principles presented for acceptance or belief, as by a religious, political, scientific, or philosophic group; dogma.2. A rule or principle of law, especially when established by precedent.3. A statement of official government policy, especially in foreign affairs and military strategy My knowledge is that Divinity (as in God) is concerned with principles of doctrine and faith and belief.So is the Pope and the Catholic church, who really liked Dante's Inferno so much that they up with purgatory and made it dogma.At least God gives man free will and provides for forgiveness;where as the Pope and Catholic church threatens you with excommunication for some silly rule you broke. Confessionals are silly things. Why should a priest hear all about your sins?Who really has the power to forgive? God or a priest (who is a sinner)?

(in reply to Vendaval)

RE: Religion - 4/13/2009 7:00:40 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: FourQ

Religion:
Definition of a God/Deity - an imaginary friend for adults.

Religious war - two parties fighting over who has the best imaginary friend.

(Sorry for this...)
He's not the Messiah, he's a very naughty boy!!

Suitably provokative perhaps, but if one is to discuss religion, one first has to define what religion is, and in doing that avoid the sort of over-prescriptive approach that leads to such simplistic ideas as deity being an imaginary friend for adults (a picture eminently drawn from a narrow, overly prescriptive view) and that leads to any conclusion that one religion is more worthy than another to be so described (which leads to ridiculous "religious" war).

E

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RE: Religion - 4/13/2009 7:31:47 AM

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What are the odds that the myriad of religions scattered across the globe were an outcome similar in nature to the Tower of Babel?

Humans, allegedly with a united language at that time, decided to build a tower that would top out in the heavens and glorify man. Apparently, that did not amuse God who consequently scattered them across the globe and confused all the languages, making future collusions a serious challenge.

Maybe there were similar aspirations back in the origins of time wherein there was one faith. Perhaps a theory was floated that they should unite and learn more about the author of their creation. To avoid that, those of one faith were scattered across the earth to develop multiple theologies.

p.s. I want the Kevlar concession for this thread!!

< Message edited by MsFlutter -- 4/13/2009 7:46:35 AM >

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RE: Religion - 4/13/2009 8:00:18 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

No ,not a bible basher in the least....haven't seen the inside of a church in years.
But...and this is a big but,I don't beleive in burning my bridges either....tweaking God's nose(if God does exist) on one of his high holy days seems to be courting disaster....
But have at it if you like....I would ride that bike with some caution for a couple of days if I were you though.

Very interesting statement slvemike. You fear the retribution of a God you don't believe in.

Do you also maintain a mere pretense of behavior that same God would not be averse to as a way to hedge your bets against that nonbelief?

I would expect any supreme/infinite being to see through any attempts on our part, given our miniscule finiteness, at "pulling the wool" over their eyes, as it were.

Uncle Nasty

(in reply to slvemike4u)

RE: Religion - 4/13/2009 8:58:51 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: UncleNasty

quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

No ,not a bible basher in the least....haven't seen the inside of a church in years.
But...and this is a big but,I don't beleive in burning my bridges either....tweaking God's nose(if God does exist) on one of his high holy days seems to be courting disaster....
But have at it if you like....I would ride that bike with some caution for a couple of days if I were you though.

Very interesting statement slvemike. You fear the retribution of a God you don't believe in.

Do you also maintain a mere pretense of behavior that same God would not be averse to as a way to hedge your bets against that nonbelief?

I would expect any supreme/infinite being to see through any attempts on our part, given our miniscule finiteness, at "pulling the wool" over their eyes, as it were.

Uncle Nasty

Uncle,you confuse me here...I have reread my post and I can find nothing in it that indicates a lack of beleif in God,I was asked if I was a Bible Basher ...to which I responded in the negative.Now does one have to bash a bible to beleive in God?
Certainly not.Another interesting comment was that I fear the retribution of God...again I spoke of no such fear for myself...I was speaking to someone else wasn't I?
I have the faith of my fathers....do I question it ....of course I do....but never do I make light of it nor do I belittle the faith of others...As a matter of fact I envy those whose faaith comes without doubts....how reassuring it must be to firmly beleive in a God.
How I wish my faith was that strong ,that sure..... alas I like many others, though we have the lessons of youth in our heads ,have far too many questions to claim an unwavering beleif in something we can not prove.....but the kicker is, I can not disprove it either....hence the hedging(which your right any diety worth his salt will see right thru....yep I'm screwed either way....lol)

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(in reply to UncleNasty)

RE: Religion - 4/13/2009 1:38:52 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: RealSub58

To the OP:

Why did you not label your post "bashing religion"?
Or better yet ~ "bashing God"?

I'm pretty sure that God can look after Himself. Omnipotence sorta suggests that to me.

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To watch how the mighty go in a blaze of hubris
But I just stood there hypnotised by all the beautiful madness

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(in reply to RealSub58)

RE: Religion - 4/13/2009 5:38:03 PM

piratecommander

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quote:

ORIGINAL: fluffypet61

i'm puzzled...

Why do folks spend so much time talking about how and why they don't believe in religion? Are they trying to convince themselves that they are correct? Do they doubt their doubt? Which religion do they not believe?

Good question,not sure I can answer for anyone else though,I have no flock.

I hate the process where when religion people bring up the subject of religion then get really frustrated when they can't convince you to buy in. I hate it when people suggest that I'm trying to convince myself of something when really they are trying to convince me that I should follow their belief instead of respecting mine (I said BELIEF, NOT, NOT NOT, religion).

Which religion do I not believe? I have no doubt that my answer is without doubt.Give me a big long list of "religions" and I will tell you which bits of them make sense and which bits are just plain silly,but I can only give you my view.

Any "god" who sees the rich fed while poor people who have been "devout" all their lives, starve or die,get slaughtered by armies when they are neutral,become victims of disease,child abuse,etc.etc. is not worthy of being believed in if you ask me.

It in some ways depends on what you personally mean when you use the word,my word would not be religion.

As to how and why (as you put it) ... has it ever crossed your mind that when one encounters religion it is almost comparable to the Borg? (except the holy men cant really know your thoughts) to an outsider.
They have holy men in the armed forces world wide ... that should help you understand why I would be inclined to doubt the sincerity of a number of seats of faith.

I don't spend much time worrying about these things, lets face it,from christian to moslem to capitalist to communist to fascist to jew to witch doctor, they are all into mind control/propaganda/guilt

I think it is better to reverse the question ... why do religious parasites spend so much time trying to indoctrinate? maybe THEY are the ones trying to convince themselves that they are correct?

Does this help? (not that I'm going to get in any way sympathetic/pathetic or "see the light" or any such bullshit,I just thought my answer might spare a few non sheep from further persecution by "religion",and this was an unselfish thought for no reward)

Which religion? send me a comprehensive list of "religions" ... maybe we can start there?

Pirate

(in reply to fluffypet61)

RE: Religion - 4/13/2009 6:23:02 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: piratecommander
has it ever crossed your mind that when one encounters religion it is almost comparable to the Borg?

Yes. But then I stopped being fifteen years old.

quote:

They have holy men in the armed forces world wide ... that should help you understand why I would be inclined to doubt the sincerity of a number of seats of faith.

Apart from in strictly pacifist religions (Quakers, say), I'm not sure where the contradiction lies.

quote:

I don't spend much time worrying about these things, lets face it,from christian to moslem to capitalist to communist to fascist to jew to witch doctor, they are all into mind control/propaganda/guilt

If you "don't spend much time worrying about these things", that strikes me as a rather strong conclusion to come to.

quote:

I just thought my answer might spare a few non sheep from further persecution by "religion",and this was an unselfish thought for no reward)

You thought you'd "save" everyone? And for no reward! Can you see the irony here?

I always think that people who would describe other human beings as "sheep" say more about themselves than they do the object of their derision.

Generally what they say to me is "I took The Matrix a little bit too seriously".

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We went to see the fall of Rome - I thought it would please us
To watch how the mighty go in a blaze of hubris
But I just stood there hypnotised by all the beautiful madness

(New Model Army, Into the Wind)

(in reply to piratecommander)

RE: Religion - 4/14/2009 5:14:03 AM

RCdc

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Whenever I see a thread about religion started on CM, I can pretty much 99.9% be sure that it is

a) written by someone who claims not to have a religion or belief (which is in itself an oxymoron).
b) about how bad religion is
c) taking the piss out of religion
d) trying to condemn and accuse all people who are religious of biblebashing and showing them how wrong they are.

Overall - points a,b,c,d are all points trying to convince people that religion is wrong and that they should not believe in it and are idiots if they do - that they should be athiests instead, or at least an agnostic.
If that isn't trying to convert/bash someone, well....
oh the irony.

the.dark.

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RE: Religion - 4/14/2009 6:17:47 AM

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I do have a strong belief that when the OP started this thread, he was doing so based upon a good sense of humor. From countless chats with the OP in private, he never struck me as as person who goes around bashing the beliefs of another person.

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RE: Religion - 4/14/2009 7:16:07 AM

RCdc

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I believe that the OP was being funny and the intentions were cool. But it's still 'bashing' - just with the same good intention that a chrisitian (for the sake of arguement) says 'I will keep you in my prayers' - unsolicited - to a person regardless of their faith.

Using humour is just another way of laughing at people and at ourselves. It's all cool - geeze if I didnt laugh at some of the hypocrasy that some religious folks spout I should be that atheist . Isn't it all about good intention or humour at the end of the day - only from a different viewpoint?

the.dark.

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RE: Religion - 4/14/2009 7:21:53 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: beargonewild

I do have a strong belief that when the OP started this thread, he was doing so based upon a good sense of humor. From countless chats with the OP in private, he never struck me as as person who goes around bashing the beliefs of another person.

i agree

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RE: Religion - 4/14/2009 8:03:51 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

I believe that the OP was being funny and the intentions were cool. But it's still 'bashing' - just with the same good intention that a chrisitian (for the sake of arguement) says 'I will keep you in my prayers' - unsolicited - to a person regardless of their faith.

Using humour is just another way of laughing at people and at ourselves. It's all cool - geeze if I didnt laugh at some of the hypocrasy that some religious folks spout I should be that atheist . Isn't it all about good intention or humour at the end of the day - only from a different viewpoint?

the.dark.

Yes you are quite correct

I didn't mean to come across as snarky as that wasn't my intent!

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RE: Religion - 4/14/2009 9:25:09 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: beargonewild

quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

I believe that the OP was being funny and the intentions were cool. But it's still 'bashing' - just with the same good intention that a chrisitian (for the sake of arguement) says 'I will keep you in my prayers' - unsolicited - to a person regardless of their faith.

Using humour is just another way of laughing at people and at ourselves. It's all cool - geeze if I didnt laugh at some of the hypocrasy that some religious folks spout I should be that atheist . Isn't it all about good intention or humour at the end of the day - only from a different viewpoint?

the.dark.

Yes you are quite correct I didn't mean to come across as snarky as that wasn't my intent!

Me too... I'm sorry if anyone was offended by me 'bashing the bishop' so to speak.

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RE: Religion - 4/14/2009 9:26:27 AM

RCdc

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the.dark.

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RE: Religion - 4/14/2009 9:47:10 AM

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*blushing furiously*
Are you flirting with me .dark? LOL

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RE: Religion - 4/14/2009 9:53:45 AM

RCdc

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ALWAYS!... I am still contemplating on the likelihood of finding out about what's under that kilt... I am still dying to know.

I heard the rumours. Now for the facts, bammit.

the.dark.

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RE: Religion - 4/14/2009 9:59:30 AM

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LOL.

The bare/bear facts is underneath that kilt is what nature gave me at birth!

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That I’m all yours what you waiting for?

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10 NZ points
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(in reply to RCdc)

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