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RE: Homeland Security Warns Of Rightwing Radicals - 6/11/2009 5:44:53 AM   
cadenas


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JennieSlave]
Terrorism *by definition* is not the same as a "nut case".  Terrorism is an act of war designed to bring about the downfall of a government.  Anti-Abortion people are not doing that, and the left-wing nutcase who shot up the holocaust memorial was not trying to do that.


Not quite. Terrorism is the use of violence to accomplish a political goal (not even the Osama bin Laden wants to bring down the US government) And anti-abortion, as well as most of the nutcases, fall squarely into that definition.


(in reply to JennieSlave)
Profile   Post #: 61
RE: Homeland Security Warns Of Rightwing Radicals - 6/11/2009 8:29:39 AM   
DomKen


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From: Chicago, IL
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quote:

ORIGINAL: JennieSlave

Terrorism *by definition* is not the same as a "nut case".  Terrorism is an act of war designed to bring about the downfall of a government.  Anti-Abortion people are not doing that, and the left-wing nutcase who shot up the holocaust memorial was not trying to do that.

Terrorism is violence against civilians with a political motivation. Roeder and Von Brunn are terrorists.

(in reply to JennieSlave)
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RE: Homeland Security Warns Of Rightwing Radicals - 6/11/2009 10:33:07 AM   
Cagey18


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JennieSlave

Terrorism *by definition* is not the same as a "nut case".  Terrorism is an act of war designed to bring about the downfall of a government.  Anti-Abortion people are not doing that, and the left-wing nutcase who shot up the holocaust memorial was not trying to do that.

On what do you base classifying an anti-Semitic Aryan Nation type as "left wing"? 

Or is this just hopeful revisionism on your part?


(in reply to JennieSlave)
Profile   Post #: 63
RE: Homeland Security Warns Of Rightwing Radicals - 6/11/2009 10:40:10 AM   
Thadius


Posts: 5091
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Cagey18

quote:

ORIGINAL: JennieSlave

Terrorism *by definition* is not the same as a "nut case".  Terrorism is an act of war designed to bring about the downfall of a government.  Anti-Abortion people are not doing that, and the left-wing nutcase who shot up the holocaust memorial was not trying to do that.

On what do you base classifying an anti-Semitic Aryan Nation type as "left wing"? 

Or is this just hopeful revisionism on your part?




Hmmm... probably the same basis for classifying him as a "right wing" idiot.

Oh wait I forget those on the left are peaceful, and get along with everybody....

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(in reply to Cagey18)
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RE: Homeland Security Warns Of Rightwing Radicals - 6/11/2009 10:55:19 AM   
Cagey18


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius

quote:

ORIGINAL: Cagey18

quote:

ORIGINAL: JennieSlave

Terrorism *by definition* is not the same as a "nut case".  Terrorism is an act of war designed to bring about the downfall of a government.  Anti-Abortion people are not doing that, and the left-wing nutcase who shot up the holocaust memorial was not trying to do that.

On what do you base classifying an anti-Semitic Aryan Nation type as "left wing"? 

Or is this just hopeful revisionism on your part?



Hmmm... probably the same basis for classifying him as a "right wing" idiot.

Hm, let's do a reality check here...would members of Aryan Nation and white supremacist groups classify themselves as "liberal" or "conservative"?  Show of hands, everybody?


(in reply to Thadius)
Profile   Post #: 65
RE: Homeland Security Warns Of Rightwing Radicals - 6/11/2009 11:48:20 AM   
rfd1


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quote:

University of Hawaii political scientist Rudolph J. Rummel, one of the leading students of democide (mass murder of civilian populations by governments), has estimated that nearly 170 million people have been murdered by their own governments in the 20th century.

(in reply to Sanity)
Profile   Post #: 66
RE: Homeland Security Warns Of Rightwing Radicals - 6/11/2009 12:22:39 PM   
Apocalypso


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quote:

ORIGINAL: cadenas
Not quite. Terrorism is the use of violence to accomplish a political goal (not even the Osama bin Laden wants to bring down the US government) And anti-abortion, as well as most of the nutcases, fall squarely into that definition.
The problem is that there isn't a single accepted international definition of "terrorism".  Although, yes, JennieSlave's definition is something of a fringe one.

_____________________________

If you're going to quote from the Book of Revelation,
Don't keep calling it the "Book of Revelations",
There's no "s", it's the Book of Revelation,
As revealed to Saint John the Divine.

(in reply to cadenas)
Profile   Post #: 67
RE: Homeland Security Warns Of Rightwing Radicals - 6/11/2009 12:30:31 PM   
Apocalypso


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius
Hmmm... probably the same basis for classifying him as a "right wing" idiot.

Oh wait I forget those on the left are peaceful, and get along with everybody....
That's a non-sequitur.  Obviously not everyone on the left is peaceful.  The Weathermen, to take one example, were obviously both violent and left wing.

The question is what basis there is for classifying a Neonazi as right or left wing.

Those that believe Nazis are right wing would be the vast bulk of historians and political scientists, who run the gamut of political opinions from left to right, plus the self-identification of the modern fascist movements.

Those that argue they're left wing would be a tiny fringe of academics, essentially consisting of Von Mises, Rand and their acolytes.  They come from a single ideological perspective and have no academic support from any other source.

So it's a reasonably uneven argument currently.  Obviously, the latter could still be correct.  So could the flat earthers.  It's just not particularly likely.


_____________________________

If you're going to quote from the Book of Revelation,
Don't keep calling it the "Book of Revelations",
There's no "s", it's the Book of Revelation,
As revealed to Saint John the Divine.

(in reply to Thadius)
Profile   Post #: 68
RE: Homeland Security Warns Of Rightwing Radicals - 6/11/2009 6:46:16 PM   
MarsBonfire


Posts: 1034
Joined: 3/6/2005
Status: offline 		It's official: the museum shooting has been classified by DHS, CIA and FBI as an act of "domestic terrorisim." Naturally, Rush Limbaugh today tried to say that this incident was the work of a "radical LEFTIST" i.e. the shooter was a liberal....

(Yes, obviously! Why didn't I see it before? All nazi, anti-semetic holocaust denier, "they're coming to take my gun stockpile" conspiracy theorists are obviously liberals!)


(in reply to Apocalypso)
Profile   Post #: 69
RE: Homeland Security Warns Of Rightwing Radicals - 6/11/2009 8:03:44 PM   
Cagey18


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MarsBonfire

It's official: the museum shooting has been classified by DHS, CIA and FBI as an act of "domestic terrorisim." Naturally, Rush Limbaugh today tried to say that this incident was the work of a "radical LEFTIST" i.e. the shooter was a liberal....

(Yes, obviously! Why didn't I see it before? All nazi, anti-semetic holocaust denier, "they're coming to take my gun stockpile" conspiracy theorists are obviously liberals!)

Not to mention FreeRepublic.com poster... what a hotbed of liberalism that site is...

(in reply to MarsBonfire)
Profile   Post #: 70
RE: Homeland Security Warns Of Rightwing Radicals - 6/11/2009 8:25:19 PM   
ThatDamnedPanda


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MarsBonfire

It's official: the museum shooting has been classified by DHS, CIA and FBI as an act of "domestic terrorisim." Naturally, Rush Limbaugh today tried to say that this incident was the work of a "radical LEFTIST" i.e. the shooter was a liberal....

(Yes, obviously! Why didn't I see it before? All nazi, anti-semetic holocaust denier, "they're coming to take my gun stockpile" conspiracy theorists are obviously liberals!)




As insane as it is, how long do you think it'll be before the "Hitler was a liberal" contingent here on these boards begins to shout it from the rooftops? Now that Rush has announced it?


_____________________________

Panda, panda, burning bright
In the forest of the night
What immortal hand or eye
Made you all black and white and roly-poly like that?


(in reply to MarsBonfire)
Profile   Post #: 71
RE: Homeland Security Warns Of Rightwing Radicals - 6/12/2009 5:51:34 AM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
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From: New Hampshire
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Cagey18

quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius

quote:

ORIGINAL: Cagey18

quote:

ORIGINAL: JennieSlave

Terrorism *by definition* is not the same as a "nut case".  Terrorism is an act of war designed to bring about the downfall of a government.  Anti-Abortion people are not doing that, and the left-wing nutcase who shot up the holocaust memorial was not trying to do that.

On what do you base classifying an anti-Semitic Aryan Nation type as "left wing"? 

Or is this just hopeful revisionism on your part?



Hmmm... probably the same basis for classifying him as a "right wing" idiot.

Hm, let's do a reality check here...would members of Aryan Nation and white supremacist groups classify themselves as "liberal" or "conservative"?  Show of hands, everybody?





Cagey, so you're going to listen to them?
How about Timothy Mc Veigh? He was *vehimently* "anti-govt" would you call him "right wing?"
That's the problem with you libs/cons, everything has to be black and white to you! One side or,...the "other" side!
Red, green, blue, yellow seem to escape you.
There's more than two "sides"; know what an octagon is?

_____________________________

"But Your Honor, this is not a Jury of my Peers, these people are all decent, honest, law-abiding citizens!"

(in reply to Cagey18)
Profile   Post #: 72
RE: Homeland Security Warns Of Rightwing Radicals - 6/12/2009 6:23:48 AM   
Sanity


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From: Nampa, Idaho USA
Status: offline
It's funny when people come into the "Politics and Religion" section and act perplexed when they find that there are politically charged discussions going on!

What makes it even funnier is when the same person does it more than once...

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Cagey, so you're going to listen to them?
How about Timothy Mc Veigh? He was *vehimently* "anti-govt" would you call him "right wing?"
That's the problem with you libs/cons, everything has to be black and white to you! One side or,...the "other" side!
Red, green, blue, yellow seem to escape you.
There's more than two "sides"; know what an octagon is?


_____________________________

Inside Every Liberal Is A Totalitarian Screaming To Get Out

(in reply to popeye1250)
Profile   Post #: 73
RE: Homeland Security Warns Of Rightwing Radicals - 6/13/2009 10:05:53 PM   
cadenas


Posts: 517
Joined: 11/27/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda
As insane as it is, how long do you think it'll be before the "Hitler was a liberal" contingent here on these boards begins to shout it from the rooftops? Now that Rush has announced it?


Actually, his party was the National *Socialist* Party. And that's not a complete coincidence; Hitler intended to corner both the right-wing and the left-wing market. My grandfather, who was a government official in Hitler's government, swore to his last day that Hitler was more socialist than the communists. And when you look at his economic policies, there actually is some merit to that argument. They actually were surprisingly sane. Of course, that is not an excuse for his atrocious crimes - it's more akin to saying "the Columbian drug lords are good managers and provide for their employees".

The best-known example is how he jumpstarted the German auto industry by creating a new car company and providing government financing and a national Autobahn system. That company still carries the name he gave it: Volkswagen - People's Car.

The real problem I have with the right wing is that they vilify freedom and building a sound society. For that's what "Liberal" and "Socialist" actually mean.


(in reply to ThatDamnedPanda)
Profile   Post #: 74
RE: Homeland Security Warns Of Rightwing Radicals - 6/14/2009 8:57:26 AM   
LadyEllen


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From: Stourport-England
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quote:

ORIGINAL: cadenas
My grandfather, who was a government official in Hitler's government, swore to his last day that Hitler was more socialist than the communists.


complete aside - should I be worried about myself that I find the idea of one's grandad having been a government official in the nazi regime is actually pretty cool?

I would have got to talk about loading procedure for Lancaster bombers had my one grandad lived longer, and weapons/munitions tooling with my other had he not been a little ashamed about not fighting (reserved occupation) - the chance of being able to discuss the nazi regime with someone who was on the inside is something I envy.

sorry for the interruption, back to the thread

E

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In a test against the leading brand, 9 out of 10 participants couldnt tell the difference. Dumbasses.

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RE: Homeland Security Warns Of Rightwing Radicals - 6/14/2009 9:32:26 AM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

The problem is that there isn't a single accepted international definition of "terrorism".


"The problem is that there isn't a single accepted international definition of ___________" is a silly argument.

Fine, one man's terrorist is another's freedom fighter. But we can certainly recognize and agree upon acts of terrorism.

Since you're on a logic/semantics kick, look up the Perfectionist Fallacy.

To take your line of reasoning to it's extreme, we can't really know anybody, therefore there is no one.

That's the problem.


(in reply to Apocalypso)
Profile   Post #: 76
RE: Homeland Security Warns Of Rightwing Radicals - 6/14/2009 9:55:12 AM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline 		Figures, "Homeland Security" warns us of attacks by "Right Wing Radicals" so what do we get? Attacks by Left Wing Radicals!"
The guy was a friggin NAZI!
Has "Homeland Security" said anything about all the drug violence along the Mexican border yet?
I can just see their official announcement on that; "All persons travelling near the Canadian border should be aware of drug violence and take,..."appropriate precautions."
"Got a college "degree" and an i.q. of 90? You too can work for the government!"

_____________________________

"But Your Honor, this is not a Jury of my Peers, these people are all decent, honest, law-abiding citizens!"

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RE: Homeland Security Warns Of Rightwing Radicals - 6/14/2009 10:13:13 AM   
MarsBonfire


Posts: 1034
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Status: offline 		Yup. He was a friggin Nazi....

Funny how close "friggin Nazi" has come to being a synonym for "republican extremist." After all, who exactly IS scapegoating minorities (legal or illegal) these days? Who are the ones ripping on the gay community on a regular basis? Which side worked it's ass off to make sure the ERA never passed back in the 70's? Which political side is the bitch for the radical anti-abortion lobby? (The one that has a history of violence against Doctors practicing legal medicine.) Which side was against civil rights in the 1960's? Which side coined the term "swiftboating?" Which side favors gutting the Constitution, in favor of regular torture programs? Which side wants to shove one particular religion into our science classrooms?

Which side is composed primarily of old, white, rich racists?

Republicans.

And when they don't get their way... when people realize just what a pile of steaming dog breakfast their ideology and beliefs really are... when they get voted out of office. They become violent. They kill people. They think they are fucking Batman, running around dispensing vigilante justice. All fueled by hot-talk BS from their versions of Josepf Goebbels: Limbaugh, O'Riley, Beck, Hannity... the airwaves are full of their shit designed to stir up the ants.

O'Riley is responsible for Tilley being murdered.

(in reply to popeye1250)
Profile   Post #: 78
RE: Homeland Security Warns Of Rightwing Radicals - 6/14/2009 10:24:15 AM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline 		Mars, you'd have to ask Sen. Robert Bird those questions.

_____________________________

"But Your Honor, this is not a Jury of my Peers, these people are all decent, honest, law-abiding citizens!"

(in reply to MarsBonfire)
Profile   Post #: 79
RE: Homeland Security Warns Of Rightwing Radicals - 6/14/2009 10:30:52 AM   
JonnieBoy


Posts: 1468
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From: Cymru
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Apocalypso
The problem is that there isn't a single accepted international definition of "terrorism"..


This man has given the most accurate definition of "terrorism" I've read or heard in a very long time.

Anyone who thinks they have a better answer ... should start thinking harder.

Pirate

(in reply to Apocalypso)
Profile   Post #: 80
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