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RE: Somali Pirates vow to go after American ships, kill... - 4/16/2009 5:01:57 AM   
MmeGigs


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SteelofUtah
Personally I feel that if there are people going hungry in our own country and we give away a single bowl of rice to another country there is something wrong with our country. Period.

I do not like seeing children starve but I find it odd that wer step out over our own to help someone else. Where is the humanity in that?


I see it differently.  I don't mind feeding hungry folks overseas.  If we don't do that, the money is not going to be spent feeding people over here.  Money spent to feed the folks over there is often a good long-term investment.  When the country gets its shit together, they tend to be kindly disposed toward the countries who helped them out when they were down. This is some of why China is doing so well in Africa. 

I've found myself asking, "Where's the humanity?" when I hear about cuts to local housing and food programs because we just can't afford them, and the next day hear the Governor talking about using taxpayer dollars to build a new sports stadium. 

(in reply to SteelofUtah)
Profile   Post #: 101
RE: Somali Pirates vow to go after American ships, kill... - 4/16/2009 5:13:11 AM   
Irishknight


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

quote:

ORIGINAL: Irishknight

Popeye, how dare you suggest that we retaliate against these peace loving fisherman if they attack?  They are innocent victims being oppressed and we should not deny them the right to kill all the evil sailors that they want.


Yes, these bastards should let their coastline be exploited without saying a word. It's not like you would rebel against anybody if they were stealing your food out of your mouth, is it? You'd respect the law and let them do it. Wouldn't you?


Sorry, Kitten.  These pirates are criminals that are beyond justification.  Sad that someone who cries out in the name of inustice so often willingly supports murderers.  Your argument is ridiculous.  These pirates aren't striking out for freedom.  They are stealing, murdering and kidnapping.   THEY are not the victims but the victimizers.  They are the asshats victimizing their own people as well.  When they are all at the bottom of the ocean, the real victims might be heard.

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Profile   Post #: 102
RE: Somali Pirates vow to go after American ships, kill... - 4/16/2009 7:39:36 AM   
scarlethiney


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

Make that two of us, but great opening for My point.

The thing is, a lot of us here at home, especially those of us with military connections through family or whatever, are getting rather sick and tired of the save the world concept.  There are certain things in life that are in limited supply.  Food, money, and medicine happen to be three of them.  It shouldn't be a sin to say that I'm more interested in *every* American having their basic needs met first, before I would think of sending resources elsewhere.



The problem is we are not making sure Americans have their basic needs met either. We are doing a crappy job right here at home. It is not a sin to say you would like to see the people in our country taken care of first. It also doesn't mean its a sin to care about helping others elsewhere. 

Just a clarification....... the family members and friends  I have in the military  do not have the same view you do with regard to the "save the world" concept. Those friends and family in the military are honored to be of service and help to all people and they certainly don't begrudge anyone the right to  have basic human needs i.e. food, medicine and money no matter where they live.



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"The words 'I am...' are potent words; be careful what you hitch them to. The thing you're claiming has a way of reaching back and claiming you." - A.L. Kitselman.


see my profile masterkspet

(in reply to LadyPact)
Profile   Post #: 103
RE: Somali Pirates vow to go after American ships, kill... - 4/16/2009 8:05:17 AM   
SteelofUtah


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It is very easy to say, Think of the Children. So easy that it is this phrase that tugs at the heart strings of humanity.

Foreign Aide doesn't really work that way. In Fact Most of the food that the children see doesn't come from Foreign Aide it comes from Independent Charities that I do support. I support the Churches that build the MAJORITY of schools in the actual villages where it is needed the most. The Majority of Foreign Aide to these countries goes into the cities whish isn't where the famine is the worst.

Most PRIVATE Charity Aide work is what you see when there is foor AirVac'd to an Area. In fact there was a big issue with a commercial used by the United Way where they showed Soldiers Delivering Massive pallets of food to an Ethiopian Area because NONE of the food was given by the goverment, bue to Gurilla (SP?) actitivities it was necessary to use Millitary Escort to make sure the shipment wasn't Taken from the village in route.

It is Speculated that only 60% of the food remains in the villages due to Piracy and Gurilla activities. It is only a speculation because there is no real "Governmental support" to report back on what is helping and what is not.

There is NO Public Report on How Foreign Aide is Spent and the information that we do have cannot be guartanteed because the countries that receive the aide are not required to give any form of expence report. Not that I could research anyway so I may be wrong on this, and if I am I conceed the notion.

As for Starving Children, I will do what I can to feed the ones I can, and I choose the ones I support carefully. I do not Support the Salvation Army with Money because on average only 11 cents of every dollar make it to those who actually need the money, I will support their thrift stores and will buy from there thrift stores because the majority of the "Employees" are needy and if I give clothes or Blankets if they are in good enough conditon there is a 50/50 shot that someone in need will get them at a discounted price or someone being helped by the SA will get them for free.

I Support the March of Dimes because they are responsible for my existence had they not saved my Grandmothers Life She would have died at 16. I know that what they do SAVES people.

I Support any company that does like that Shoe Company does. Where for every pair of shoes that you buy a pair is Given to someone in a Third World Country. These kinds of things I will support, Yes I know there are children in America that need shoes too, I needed a pair of shoes and because I bought them from this company someone in a third world got a pair too, If I bought a Pair of shoes for the American Child another child would get a pair of shoes. I like that idea.

When it comes to Foreign Aide I get annoyed when people say "Think of the Children" It tells me you really don't understand how Foreign Aide works because we rely on their "Goverment" to Dole out the Duckets and if a country where that many people suffer while govermental heads dress in Armani and Drive Esclades I ask you how much that goverment actually cares about those who are suffering?

I am Against any Foreign Aide to a Country that allows those who pose a Threat to an American Citizen to go un-punished. I believe that should their "Goverment" decide to state that anyone caught in the practice of Piracy will be excecuted if a life was taken or imprisoned if illegal means were used by the goverment showing these Pirates that they would have no Asylum it would stop. If they are not willing to do that I do not see why we would continue to send their Goverment Money.

And Before anyone gets antsy, Africa has been accused of allowing Foreign Aide to support War Lords by the ammount of medicine "Stolen" by them, and with it happeing so offten it just doesn't seem like any attempt to stop the practice is being made. Because of this Foreign Aide Supports War Lords, Gun Trades, and Murder by the fact that they benifit from the Aide.

Also Foreign Aide IS NOT CHARITY!! It is a Diplomatic Agreement, one that can be Terminated if the receiving country doesn't meet with it's agreements, and for YEARS Foreign Goverments have tried to take Credit for schools and Church Buildings which receive a Social Services Label and Schools which were built by Missionarys and use it as part of what the foreign aide was used for.

I feel we should only help those who support us. And YES this is an Either/or. Either you are an Allie or you do not deserve what you receive from us.

We are in Serious Debt and yet we give money.... LOTS of money to countries that won't take action against a group of people who are not apparently Targeting AMERICAN Vessles.

I just don't get it, My Philantrophy (SP?) only goes so far.

Steel

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(in reply to Irishknight)
Profile   Post #: 104
RE: Somali Pirates vow to go after American ships, kill... - 4/16/2009 8:28:38 AM   
slvemike4u


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Steel there is a lot of truth in what you say.....now could you please explain to Popeye how Foreign Aid is actually not a charity...and that America attaches strings to such aid.Can it be administered more effectively...yes.But that isn't allways in America's best interest is it...better to give the money to those in power...extracting whatever agreements we are looking for at the time...and let private charities worry about the starving.

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


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RE: Somali Pirates vow to go after American ships, kill... - 4/16/2009 8:33:29 AM   
kdsub


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quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

Steel there is a lot of truth in what you say.....now could you please explain to Popeye how Foreign Aid is actually not a charity...and that America attaches strings to such aid.Can it be administered more effectively...yes.But that isn't allways in America's best interest is it...better to give the money to those in power...extracting whatever agreements we are looking for at the time...and let private charities worry about the starving.



I agree that is the idea...but tell me has it worked with Korea...has it worked with Palestine…has it worked with Venezuela? Better yet has it worked anywhere in the world...if so please tell me where.

Butch

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Profile   Post #: 106
RE: Somali Pirates vow to go after American ships, kill... - 4/16/2009 8:39:01 AM   
slvemike4u


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Here is a link to the Congressional report on Foreign aid its goals and policies...hope you have an hour or so to kill.....     http://fpc.state.gov/documents/organization/31987.pdf

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 107
RE: Somali Pirates vow to go after American ships, kill... - 4/16/2009 8:57:53 AM   
kdsub


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quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

Here is a link to the Congressional report on Foreign aid its goals and policies...hope you have an hour or so to kill.....     http://fpc.state.gov/documents/organization/31987.pdf



I'm a speed reader...lol... but I did read the first few pages... every country listed as receiving aid that I saw was less then a success.. That is my point... I understand the reasons it is just those reasons are not achieving their goals… and as far as I can see they never have.

If I don’t agree with you or like you I’ll be perfectly happy to take all the money you want to give me but I still won’t like you or agree with you. I’ll play you like the stupid ass you are…laughing behind your fool back.

Aid should be to friends not enemies or moochers.

Ps… I do like you …say got a few extra bucks?

Butch

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Profile   Post #: 108
RE: Somali Pirates vow to go after American ships, kill... - 4/16/2009 9:03:15 AM   
slvemike4u


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub


quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

Here is a link to the Congressional report on Foreign aid its goals and policies...hope you have an hour or so to kill.....     http://fpc.state.gov/documents/organization/31987.pdf



I'm a speed reader...lol... but I did read the first few pages... every country listed as receiving aid that I saw was less then a success.. That is my point... I understand the reasons it is just those reasons are not achieving their goals… and as far as I can see they never have.

If I don’t agree with you or like you I’ll be perfectly happy to take all the money you want to give me but I still won’t like you or agree with you. I’ll play you like the stupid ass you are…laughing behind your fool back.

Aid should be to friends not enemies or moochers.

Ps… I do like you …say got a few extra bucks?

Butch

Lack of total success does not equate to total failure either  Butch.In some cases the checks are written just to gain access for American companies or to deny access to other Foreign influences.Complicated stuff,but during the cold war foreign aid was used to buy influence...with us ponieing up to half the third world and the Soviets the other.If the arms race helped destabilize the old Soviet union...so did the influence race play its part.Right there is a giant success.

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 109
RE: Somali Pirates vow to go after American ships, kill... - 4/16/2009 9:07:52 AM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub


quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

Here is a link to the Congressional report on Foreign aid its goals and policies...hope you have an hour or so to kill.....     http://fpc.state.gov/documents/organization/31987.pdf



I'm a speed reader...lol... but I did read the first few pages... every country listed as receiving aid that I saw was less then a success.. That is my point... I understand the reasons it is just those reasons are not achieving their goals… and as far as I can see they never have.

If I don’t agree with you or like you I’ll be perfectly happy to take all the money you want to give me but I still won’t like you or agree with you. I’ll play you like the stupid ass you are…laughing behind your fool back.

Aid should be to friends not enemies or moochers.

Ps… I do like you …say got a few extra bucks?

Butch

Lack of total success does not equate to total failure either  Butch.In some cases the checks are written just to gain access for American companies or to deny access to other Foreign influences.Complicated stuff,but during the cold war foreign aid was used to buy influence...with us ponieing up to half the third world and the Soviets the other.If the arms race helped destabilize the old Soviet union...so did the influence race play its part.Right there is a giant success.


I do...I really do understand what your premise is... I'm just saying it did not help the Russians or us very much… It just doesn’t work in the long run… You can’t change ideas and thoughts with money.

< Message edited by kdsub -- 4/16/2009 9:08:14 AM >

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RE: Somali Pirates vow to go after American ships, kill... - 4/16/2009 9:13:15 AM   
LadyPact


Posts: 32566
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quote:

ORIGINAL: scarlethiney
The problem is we are not making sure Americans have their basic needs met either. We are doing a crappy job right here at home. It is not a sin to say you would like to see the people in our country taken care of first. It also doesn't mean its a sin to care about helping others elsewhere. 

Just a clarification....... the family members and friends  I have in the military  do not have the same view you do with regard to the "save the world" concept. Those friends and family in the military are honored to be of service and help to all people and they certainly don't begrudge anyone the right to  have basic human needs i.e. food, medicine and money no matter where they live.




Your first sentence is absolutely correct.  I'd agree with the second one as well.  In fact, that is My issue with the whole thing.  If we *were* taking care of our people at home, I'd probably have a better outlook at what we could possibly do for the rest of the world. 

You kind of went downhill in the second paragraph though.  The fact is, a lot of military dependents have trouble accessing their own benefits due to issues with pay or with Tri-Care.  I've seen the people who's spouse is deployed get turned down for even food stamps because the money should have been deposited but there was some screw up or another.  The AER (Army Emergency Relief) Office has people in it every day.  These are the same people who aren't quite as concerned about getting the basic necessities covered for others because they are trying to cover their own.

For the record, the oath taken by our service men and women is to support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies foreign and domestic.  No where does it mention humanitarian services elsewhere.




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RE: Somali Pirates vow to go after American ships, kill... - 4/16/2009 9:16:11 AM   
slvemike4u


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Well actually it did help us....The Soviet Union is no more....lol.And in today's current atmosphere what price tag would you put on American money convincing some third world shit hole that allowing terrorist training camps wasn't a very good idea.American Money instead of American boys and girls to drive the point home seems like a win to me.

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 112
RE: Somali Pirates vow to go after American ships, kill... - 4/16/2009 9:22:34 AM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

Well actually it did help us....The Soviet Union is no more....lol.And in today's current atmosphere what price tag would you put on American money convincing some third world shit hole that allowing terrorist training camps wasn't a very good idea.American Money instead of American boys and girls to drive the point home seems like a win to me.


Russia has not changed and they are on their way back to the adversary they were before. Our problem is we ARE giving money to shit hole third world countries and the STILL provide sanctuary to terrorist… Look at all the aid we have given to Somali in the past… All the money we have given to Palestine… all the money we have given to Pakistan… All the money we have given to Iran… all the money we have given to Saudi Arabia …. All the money we have given Venezuela …all the money we have given to N. Korea…hell I could go on and on… it is a failed policy.

Butch


< Message edited by kdsub -- 4/16/2009 9:23:23 AM >

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Profile   Post #: 113
RE: Somali Pirates vow to go after American ships, kill... - 4/16/2009 9:28:47 AM   
slvemike4u


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Okay....so we ,instead of sending huga amounts of American money abroad will use the only other method of influence left at our disposal American might(in the form of our young men and woman)...see how that sucks.If we remove the carrot from our carrot and stick approach to diplomacy...we are left with one option.I for one don't like being down to one choice.Could the policy be implemented better...of course it could.Should the policy be discontinued...I think not.

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 114
RE: Somali Pirates vow to go after American ships, kill... - 4/16/2009 9:39:09 AM   
scarlethiney


Posts: 492
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

quote:

ORIGINAL: scarlethiney
The problem is we are not making sure Americans have their basic needs met either. We are doing a crappy job right here at home. It is not a sin to say you would like to see the people in our country taken care of first. It also doesn't mean its a sin to care about helping others elsewhere. 

Just a clarification....... the family members and friends  I have in the military  do not have the same view you do with regard to the "save the world" concept. Those friends and family in the military are honored to be of service and help to all people and they certainly don't begrudge anyone the right to  have basic human needs i.e. food, medicine and money no matter where they live.




Your first sentence is absolutely correct.  I'd agree with the second one as well.  In fact, that is My issue with the whole thing.  If we *were* taking care of our people at home, I'd probably have a better outlook at what we could possibly do for the rest of the world. 

You kind of went downhill in the second paragraph though.  The fact is, a lot of military dependents have trouble accessing their own benefits due to issues with pay or with Tri-Care.  I've seen the people who's spouse is deployed get turned down for even food stamps because the money should have been deposited but there was some screw up or another.  The AER (Army Emergency Relief) Office has people in it every day.  These are the same people who aren't quite as concerned about getting the basic necessities covered for others because they are trying to cover their own.

For the record, the oath taken by our service men and women is to support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies foreign and domestic.  No where does it mention humanitarian services elsewhere.





I never quoted the Constitution of the United States with regard to the oath our service men and woman have taken. What I stated was that the service men and women "I" know don't agree with your sentiments and neither do I  with regard to helping others in other countries.
Thank you, but I  don't need statistics about facts on how our service men and women are treated by our own government. I am painfully aware of those plights as are my friends and family who also happen to be military personnel.
For the record ......everyone who is military or not does not  have your negative view of assisting of others. But your correct it's not stated in the oath they took, it is something personal they believe in.

scarlet




_____________________________

"The words 'I am...' are potent words; be careful what you hitch them to. The thing you're claiming has a way of reaching back and claiming you." - A.L. Kitselman.


see my profile masterkspet

(in reply to LadyPact)
Profile   Post #: 115
RE: Somali Pirates vow to go after American ships, kill... - 4/16/2009 9:43:16 AM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

Okay....so we ,instead of sending huga amounts of American money abroad will use the only other method of influence left at our disposal American might(in the form of our young men and woman)...see how that sucks.If we remove the carrot from our carrot and stick approach to diplomacy...we are left with one option.I for one don't like being down to one choice.Could the policy be implemented better...of course it could.Should the policy be discontinued...I think not.


I agree we need new ideas…but there is no use in using failed ones. Maybe it is time to start thinking what is good for the people of a nation rather than what is good for us. Help for the sake of helping… if we can afford it… not for political gain. People are not dumb as we seem to think… they see through our make believe help as an attempt to buy them.

You help people and mean it for the right reasons then it may change the way they think of you.

Butch

(in reply to slvemike4u)
Profile   Post #: 116
RE: Somali Pirates vow to go after American ships, kill... - 4/16/2009 9:57:32 AM   
slvemike4u


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And of course Butch you are right....pretty much sums up how we and Iran have arrived at this junction in our relationship.Foreign aid to dictators(theShah) has bitten us in the ass on more than one occasion.

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


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Profile   Post #: 117
RE: Somali Pirates vow to go after American ships, kill... - 4/16/2009 10:13:22 AM   
popeye1250


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Mike, "foreign aid" is just not something I want my govt. involved in.
It has become an "industry" in Washington with lobbyists making billions a year from it. And it's the same people and cos. making the money off of it year after year after year.
When have we *ever* seen a govt "program" that doesn't get bigger?
Look what happened a couple months ago. Israel blows up Gaza and the American Taxpayer get's to chip in $900m to "rebuild it?
What'll happen in 3 or 4 years from now when they blow it up again?
I just got off the phone with my congressman's office, Henry Brown and the staffer agreed with me about this whole situation.
He said they've been getting alot of calls about this and other related issues due to that "Tax Tea Party" thing.
There's a lot of things that our govt. should be doing but isn't like defending our borders and enforcing our immigration laws.
Then there's the things like this that they shouldn't be doing. One thing for certain is that if no-one was making any money from foreign aid in Washington they wouldn't be doing it!
Again, President Obama has promised us "change", he needs to start changing things or he's going to be a one-termer.
I hope he's not a "DINO" "democrat in name only."

P.S. all this "humanitarian" stuff is nothing but a bunch of "feel good" crap.
People think they're "helping".
Oh your "helping" alright! You should see some of the million dollar homes that the lobbyists live in in the D.C. suburbs of Virginia!

< Message edited by popeye1250 -- 4/16/2009 10:19:42 AM >


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Profile   Post #: 118
RE: Somali Pirates vow to go after American ships, kill... - 4/16/2009 10:18:00 AM   
slvemike4u


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So call for improved implementation of the policy Popeye.But like it or not "foreign aid" is a vital linchpin of American Foreign Policy...and will remain so,it is much preferable than sending American forces everywhere we perceive our interests to be.And in the long run much cheaper,both from a cost effective stand point and a human one.

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


(in reply to popeye1250)
Profile   Post #: 119
RE: Somali Pirates vow to go after American ships, kill... - 4/16/2009 10:21:43 AM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
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quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

So call for improved implementation of the policy Popeye.But like it or not "foreign aid" is a vital linchpin of American Foreign Policy...and will remain so,it is much preferable than sending American forces everywhere we perceive our interests to be.And in the long run much cheaper,both from a cost effective stand point and a human one.


You know Mike, you sound more and more like a Republican by the week.

_____________________________

"But Your Honor, this is not a Jury of my Peers, these people are all decent, honest, law-abiding citizens!"

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