RE: Bush Approved Use of Insects in al-Qaeda Interrogations

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RE: Bush Approved Use of Insects in al-Qaeda Interrogat... - 4/18/2009 12:33:13 PM

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yes some people get to live out their sadistic dreams through their government jobs and it has zero to do with preventing terrorism.

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RE: Bush Approved Use of Insects in al-Qaeda Interrogat... - 4/20/2009 3:40:04 AM

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Hi, I'm Mary Poppins! I'm here to interrogate you! Let's start off with some warm, fresh-from-the-oven cookies and some ice cold milk! Shall we?

quote:

Ex-CIA chief: Obama risks national security

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- A former head of the CIA slammed President Obama on Sunday for releasing four Bush-era memos, saying the new president has compromised national security.

Michael Hayden, who served as former President Bush's last CIA director from 2006 to 2009, said releasing the memos outlining terror interrogation methods emboldened terrorist groups such as al Qaeda.

"What we have described for our enemies in the midst of a war are the outer limits that any American would ever go to in terms of interrogating an al Qaeda terrorist. That's very valuable information," Hayden said during an appearance on "Fox News Sunday." "By taking [certain] techniques off the table, we have made it more difficult -- in a whole host of circumstances I can imagine -- for CIA officers to defend the nation," he said.

http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/04/19/cia.torture.chief/index.html

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RE: Bush Approved Use of Insects in al-Qaeda Interrogat... - 4/20/2009 7:39:53 AM

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I think it is worth noting that being a former Bush appointee, he is not exactly unbiased.

I also think it is worth noting that the original source of this story was from an interview Hayden did on Fox, which has been doing everything it can to boost its ratings by creating a feud between the past and current administration.

Most importantly, I think it's worth noting that these released memos contained no new "techniques" (I truly love that euphemism for torture) than what we have known about since Abu Ghraib.

From your link:

"What we have described for our enemies in the midst of a war are the outer limits that any American would ever go to in terms of interrogating an al Qaeda terrorist. That's very valuable information," Hayden said during an appearance on "Fox News Sunday."

"By taking [certain] techniques off the table, we have made it more difficult -- in a whole host of circumstances I can imagine -- for CIA officers to defend the nation," he said.

But Sens. Claire McCaskill, D-Missouri, and Lindsey Graham, R-South Carolina, said certain techniques should not have been allowed in the first place. McCaskill called them "a great recruitment tool for those who want to do harm to our country."

White House Chief of Staff Rahm Emanuel dismissed Hayden's assertion that releasing the memos had undermined U.S. intelligence efforts by giving al Qaeda critical new information.

"One of the reasons the president was willing to let this information out was that already the information was out," he said on ABC's "This Week."

"Go get the New York Review of Books. It's there."

< Message edited by rulemylife -- 4/20/2009 7:42:30 AM >

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RE: Bush Approved Use of Insects in al-Qaeda Interrogat... - 4/20/2009 7:43:21 AM

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Imagine a quote like that coming on Fox News Sunday....I am SHOCKED!....from a member of the previous administration no less!....How appalling!...and such a shock to come from those 2 sources!....Just because someone who probably ok'ed the activity says it is right and so therefore Obama MUST be wrong....certainly doesn't mean the source is correct!!!!!!

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RE: Bush Approved Use of Insects in al-Qaeda Interrogat... - 4/20/2009 7:51:35 AM

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wouldnt it be sensible for any *operative* terrorist or whatever, once released be debriefed by their organisation??? Im saying that if they've been tortured (sorry.... techniqued), the bosses in charge are gonna wanna know how, from their own mouths. SOP if you ask me, to say its given enemies magical secrets is utter bollocks.

Lucy

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RE: Bush Approved Use of Insects in al-Qaeda Interrogat... - 4/20/2009 4:50:44 PM

ZhuRenDianandted

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i am completely appalled at the Governmental response to terrorist activities.
i am shocked at the beheading of that terrorist journalist.
i am disgusted for all of the detainees that were killed during interrogation,
i am horrified at all the prisoners that were shot for espionage, for being engaged in combat without uniform or any way of determining them to be military.
i am sad and distressed at the group of detainees who have been carted to a secret location and shot dead for lack of cooperation.
my stomach is turning at how many detainees have been dropped from helicopters without a parachute to soften their compatriots.

What??? nobody died during the waterboarding? No reports of murder, execution, accidental deaths or starvation? the guy with the bug in the box not only did not get painfully stung, but did not even have a heart murmur?

maybe something was discovered on a "Need to Know" basis, or perhaps it was simply dumb luck that there has not been a follow up attack on US soil. Sleep well, maybe they never planned on one. i think the ostrich field is somewhere over there, on your left.

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RE: Bush Approved Use of Insects in al-Qaeda Interrogat... - 4/20/2009 5:53:02 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ZhuRenDianandted

i am completely appalled at the Governmental response to terrorist activities.
i am shocked at the beheading of that terrorist journalist.
i am disgusted for all of the detainees that were killed during interrogation,
i am horrified at all the prisoners that were shot for espionage, for being engaged in combat without uniform or any way of determining them to be military.
i am sad and distressed at the group of detainees who have been carted to a secret location and shot dead for lack of cooperation.
my stomach is turning at how many detainees have been dropped from helicopters without a parachute to soften their compatriots.

What??? nobody died during the waterboarding? No reports of murder, execution, accidental deaths or starvation? the guy with the bug in the box not only did not get painfully stung, but did not even have a heart murmur?

maybe something was discovered on a "Need to Know" basis, or perhaps it was simply dumb luck that there has not been a follow up attack on US soil. Sleep well, maybe they never planned on one. i think the ostrich field is somewhere over there, on your left.

Where to begin here.....theres just so many ways to go with this one,,fuck it I'll just watch "Chuck".

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RE: Bush Approved Use of Insects in al-Qaeda Interrogat... - 4/20/2009 6:30:15 PM

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I think you need to read the Red Cross report on the treatment of fourteen detainees in CIA custody:

http://www.nybooks.com/icrc-report.pdf

quote:

ORIGINAL: ZhuRenDianandted

What??? nobody died during the waterboarding? No reports of murder, execution, accidental deaths or starvation? the guy with the bug in the box not only did not get painfully stung, but did not even have a heart murmur?

(in reply to ZhuRenDianandted)

RE: Bush Approved Use of Insects in al-Qaeda Interrogat... - 4/20/2009 6:33:54 PM

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I agree with Mike, its tooo easy....
I dont wanna get my ass tanned again so Im gonna go stick my head in the sand, bottoms up!
Lucy

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RE: Bush Approved Use of Insects in al-Qaeda Interrogat... - 4/20/2009 8:37:40 PM

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Thank you for that link, LAM.

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RE: Bush Approved Use of Insects in al-Qaeda Interrogat... - 4/20/2009 9:38:10 PM

ZhuRenDianandted

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What is it that you are trying to say here? The report is either poorly written or based on poor translations, and/or reported by detainees that might, for some reason or another want to lie and complain about their experiences. i will admit that i only read half of the report but came to the following conclusions.
The Red Cross has a history of defending and assisting the downtrodden and for that they are wonderful and spectacular. They are highly inclined to provide comfort to those in need without question as to politics and motives, and for that they are quite compassionate. i am impressed with their bravery to put themselves on the line for the cause of humane treatment of all people. i wish i was brave enough to be that forgiving. i am not.
As for the content of the sections of this report which i read, most treatment concerns were quetioned due to allegations of poor treatment i am intrigued as to the source of those allegations. i presume from the wording of the report that the detainees were the source of information. They most certainly have a motive to exaggerate their discomfort. i do agree that it is unpleasant to be isolated for extended periods of time, and away from the family, but it is difficult to impossible to control someone whose philosophy includes, in great part, being willing and indoctrinated to die for their cause. (Dying in combat is rumored to put one in contact with 70 some odd virgins).
In the intro, there was a reference to medical care and treatment of the detainees. i stopped reading when one of the detainees claimed to be suffocated repeatedly. and who occiasionally vomited in the process. this brought me to one of several possible conclusions:
Based on the Webster definition, in my native language, suffocation is death by asphyxiation.
1. The detainee who related this experience was not accurately translated.
2. The detainee incorrectly represented the episode(s)
3. The doctors and/or interrogators took a reasonable amount of care to make sure that
the detainee did not die from aspirating his own vomit.
Of the 14 listed detainees, all of them retained their lives, their ability to speak and so on. None of them had their execution placed on the internet to instill fear and disgust in the heart of the enemy, nor to keep them from being able to relate their stories.
Do you have a link that has any one of these folks claiming to be innocent, or unjustly detained? i have not seen that part of things at all.

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RE: Bush Approved Use of Insects in al-Qaeda Interrogat... - 4/20/2009 9:42:00 PM

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Still way too easy.....

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RE: Bush Approved Use of Insects in al-Qaeda Interrogat... - 4/23/2009 11:18:15 PM

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Just noticed this, which bears out much of what Daddysredhead is saying.

http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/04/22/berga.folo/index.html

quote:

ORIGINAL: Daddysredhead

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

The Germans actually treated our prisoners well in both world wars, as well as Italy in the second.

Um, no...

My 84 year old dad just called a bullshit on this. His cousin was a prisoner of war in Germany. He was captured and beaten, and when he finally made it back home, he weighed all of 85 pounds. He didn't go over there looking like a skeleton who could barely walk, and died soon after coming back to the US.

So, the myth that American POW's in WWII were basically treated gently and given room service at the Berlin Hilton is the biggest crock I think I've read thus far.

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RE: Bush Approved Use of Insects in al-Qaeda Interrogat... - 4/27/2009 11:48:03 PM

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Now, if we really want to be nit-picking the law, all of those people who were captured by the US on the field of battle should've be shot on sight. According to the Geneva Convention, combattants who were taken prisoner on the field of battle who are not part of a regular army or not in uniform, are subjected summary justice. We did this to the German infilitrators during the Battle of the Bulge, the Nazi werewolves after the war, and the Viet Cong.

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RE: Bush Approved Use of Insects in al-Qaeda Interrogat... - 4/28/2009 1:11:21 AM

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Have you ever even read the Geneva Conventions?

http://www.icrc.org/ihl.nsf/FULL/375?OpenDocument

This is from Article 5:

quote:

Should any doubt arise as to whether persons, having committed a belligerent act and having fallen into the hands of the enemy, belong to any of the categories enumerated in Article 4, such persons shall enjoy the protection of the present Convention until such time as their status has been determined by a competent tribunal.

That's not "summary justice." And we're still waiting for the "competent tribunal."

quote:

ORIGINAL: gman992

According to the Geneva Convention, combattants who were taken prisoner on the field of battle who are not part of a regular army or not in uniform, are subjected summary justice.

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RE: Bush Approved Use of Insects in al-Qaeda Interrogat... - 5/3/2009 10:38:13 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

Just noticed this, which bears out much of what Daddysredhead is saying.

http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/04/22/berga.folo/index.html

quote:

ORIGINAL: Daddysredhead

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

The Germans actually treated our prisoners well in both world wars, as well as Italy in the second.

Um, no...

My 84 year old dad just called a bullshit on this. His cousin was a prisoner of war in Germany. He was captured and beaten, and when he finally made it back home, he weighed all of 85 pounds. He didn't go over there looking like a skeleton who could barely walk, and died soon after coming back to the US.

So, the myth that American POW's in WWII were basically treated gently and given room service at the Berlin Hilton is the biggest crock I think I've read thus far.

I just popped back on this thread and saw this, LAM. Thank you for posting this sad, be all too real, link.

~ Daddysredhead

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RE: Bush Approved Use of Insects in al-Qaeda Interrogat... - 5/4/2009 11:40:11 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

Have you ever even read the Geneva Conventions?

The key phrase being "Should any doubt arise as to whether persons...belong to any of the categories enumerated in Article 4..."

If there's no doubt, then there's no need for the tribunal.

(in reply to Lordandmaster)

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