RE: Bush Approved Use of Insects in al-Qaeda Interrogations

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RE: Bush Approved Use of Insects in al-Qaeda Interrogat... - 4/17/2009 9:01:01 AM

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I'm not defending Bush or his policies, nor defending torture. I have about the same frame of mine as you, I think. I want someone accountable for what took place. What I don't get, and probably never will, is the kind of thinking that drags this headline into a sneering repudiation of the administration.

Yes, I get it. Bush was a disaster. His policies took what it meant to many people, to be American and drug that through the mud, shit, and blood. We watched our leaders sit around and formulate reasons to imprision and deprive them of every right we as a nation hold dear. I despised the man, his vp, Rumsfeld... hell, it's easier to state who I didn't despise and that was pretty much Colin Powell. He seemed to be one of the very few who had any integrity. That was evidenced by, if nothing else, how badly he lied and how much he seemed to detest lying when making the case for war in Iraq.

This headline is bullshit though. Bottom line. The frenzied gnashing of teeth sounds no different from the left side of the aisle than it did the right. I swear to God if a fucking caterpillar creates this much hand wringing then there are too many people in this world with not enough to do. Build me a thread with beatings, waterboardings, deprivations, something that actually has meaning to it.

Read this article. If you can find sympathy and outrage over the headline and the discussion within it, then well, I guess you have more sympathy period than I'll ever have.

(in reply to kdsub)

RE: Bush Approved Use of Insects in al-Qaeda Interrogat... - 4/17/2009 9:02:16 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

quote:

ORIGINAL: StrangerThan

What constitutes torture?

Cool question to ask on a BDSM website.

According to the UN Convention Against Torture, torture is "any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a male or female person for such purposes as obtaining from him, or a third person, information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity. It does not include pain or suffering arising only from, inherent in, or incidental to, lawful sanctions."

PS: This is torture.

Damn, we're all either guilty or victims then, aren't we.

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RE: Bush Approved Use of Insects in al-Qaeda Interrogat... - 4/17/2009 9:02:32 AM

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How are the torturers(and their apolgists) so cock sure they have the right guy?

Oh right.....they have no qualms about blowing up thousands of innocent people at a pop and beheading people alive on camera

So it doesn`t really matter if we have the right guy.

What if torture doesn`t work or worse,works against our goals?

Oh right.....they have no qualms about blowing up thousands of innocent people at a pop and beheading people alive on camera

So it doesn`t really matter.

This is what I meant about the terrorist`s goal, of radicalizing people in the US.

Then the "I done cares" illegally invade Muslim country and destroy it,causing more people there to become radicalized and so on and so forth.

It`s a losers game.

Oh right.....they have no qualms about blowing up thousands of innocent people at a pop and beheading people alive on camera

So it doesn`t really matter.

I think we need a grown up to run the WH.Not people who don`t really care.

< Message edited by Owner59 -- 4/17/2009 9:04:56 AM >

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RE: Bush Approved Use of Insects in al-Qaeda Interrogat... - 4/17/2009 9:37:47 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: StrangerThan
Damn, we're all either guilty or victims then, aren't we.

Well no. There's the little pesky matter of consent.

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RE: Bush Approved Use of Insects in al-Qaeda Interrogat... - 4/17/2009 9:45:25 AM

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Makes me wonder whether YOU read the article. This is right in the second paragraph:

quote:

The techniques were: attention grasp, walling (hitting a detainee against a flexible wall), facial hold, facial slap, cramped confinement, wall standing, stress positions, sleep deprivation, insects placed in a confinement box, and waterboarding.

I see beatings, waterboarding, deprivation, and lots of things that have meaning to them.

quote:

ORIGINAL: StrangerThan

This headline is bullshit though. Bottom line. The frenzied gnashing of teeth sounds no different from the left side of the aisle than it did the right. I swear to God if a fucking caterpillar creates this much hand wringing then there are too many people in this world with not enough to do. Build me a thread with beatings, waterboardings, deprivations, something that actually has meaning to it.

Read this article. If you can find sympathy and outrage over the headline and the discussion within it, then well, I guess you have more sympathy period than I'll ever have.

(in reply to StrangerThan)

RE: Bush Approved Use of Insects in al-Qaeda Interrogat... - 4/17/2009 10:46:18 AM

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If the prisoner in question had a phobia about bugs then putting his head in a box with a bug, even a harmless bug, could have been stressful enough to give him a heart attack, literally scared to death, or very possibly brought on a panic attack. That sort of psychological abuse seems like torture to me even if no physical harm was done directly.

(in reply to Lordandmaster)

RE: Bush Approved Use of Insects in al-Qaeda Interrogat... - 4/17/2009 10:46:58 AM

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God, I love when an argument turns to nitpicking the pronouns, rather than to sticking with the point at hand, lol.

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RE: Bush Approved Use of Insects in al-Qaeda Interrogat... - 4/17/2009 11:11:15 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: StrangerThan

Yeah well, I certainly hope that if we're ever invaded by munchkins or something that they seriously consider throwing caterpillars in my pen rather than doing something like busting the ends of my fingertips with a hammer. Seriously, will some bright star step up and enlighten me as to the torture in that.

I would love to, but I don't see that as possible.

It amazes me that we have reached the point in this country when we even have to be discussing this.

If you think it is perfectly ok to stick an insect-filled box on someone's head and pretend it's not torture, then I don't know what to tell you.

(in reply to StrangerThan)

RE: Bush Approved Use of Insects in al-Qaeda Interrogat... - 4/17/2009 11:25:13 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: IrishMist

My brother was tortured; and then killed.
I have two sons, both in the service...they refuse to even discuss what happens overseas.
I have a daughter who was also in the service; she spent almost 2 years captured. She was tortured; she still has the physical scars that attest to it.

So, my answer to your question. Would I still consider it a big fucking deal?

No. I would not.

Things happen in wars/conflicts/skirmishes. Things that the general public has no fucking business knowing. Torture is a part of it. Get the fuck over it and stop looking for reasons why.

I won't even get into your seemingly heartless attitude toward your own family.

Nor will I comment on your creative use of the word fuck as an all-purpose noun, verb, and adjective.

What I will say is the public has every right to know what is being done in our name.

(in reply to IrishMist)

RE: Bush Approved Use of Insects in al-Qaeda Interrogat... - 4/17/2009 11:55:40 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

The techniques were: attention grasp, walling (hitting a detainee against a flexible wall), facial hold, facial slap, cramped confinement, wall standing, stress positions, sleep deprivation, insects placed in a confinement box, and waterboarding.

None of them look any worse than a fraternity hazing. If my kids were in jeopardy Id want these and a lot more used to protect them.

(in reply to rulemylife)

RE: Bush Approved Use of Insects in al-Qaeda Interrogat... - 4/17/2009 11:58:45 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: MichiganHeadmast

Attempting to give a damn......

sorry, can't give a damn.

You know, I keep asking this question, will you give a damn when another country uses this as justification for treating our soldiers the same way, maybe your son, daughter, or grandchildren?

You are delusional if you think a terrorist gives a fuck about what we do or dont do.

(in reply to rulemylife)

RE: Bush Approved Use of Insects in al-Qaeda Interrogat... - 4/17/2009 12:04:42 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: IrishMist

We torture prisoners.
They torture prisoners.
Everyone tortures prisoners
BIG FUCKING DEAL

If you don't see what's wrong with this I don't even know where to begin.

Well, then again I do.

It's the question I keep repeating on all these torture threads and never seem to get an answer.

Would you consider it a big fucking deal if it was your husband, son, or daughter being tortured?

If my son became a terrorist like Adam Gadahn you could do any damn thing you like to him.

(in reply to rulemylife)

RE: Bush Approved Use of Insects in al-Qaeda Interrogat... - 4/17/2009 12:09:13 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: StrangerThan

Yeah well, I certainly hope that if we're ever invaded by munchkins or something that they seriously consider throwing caterpillars in my pen rather than doing something like busting the ends of my fingertips with a hammer. Seriously, will some bright star step up and enlighten me as to the torture in that.

Contestants in that "fear" reality show went through a hell of a lot more. Wonder if they'll sue because they were permanently damaged.

(in reply to StrangerThan)

RE: Bush Approved Use of Insects in al-Qaeda Interrogat... - 4/17/2009 12:10:45 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: CruelNUnsual

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

You know, I keep asking this question, will you give a damn when another country uses this as justification for treating our soldiers the same way, maybe your son, daughter, or grandchildren?

You are delusional if you think a terrorist gives a fuck about what we do or dont do.

I'm not talking about terrorists. I'm talking about the precedent we are setting that other countries can use to justify torturing our own in conventional warfare.

I'm talking about the precedent we've set with the whole concept of preemptive war.

Is it that hard to see how these policies are eventually going to come back to bite us in the ass?

(in reply to CruelNUnsual)

RE: Bush Approved Use of Insects in al-Qaeda Interrogat... - 4/17/2009 12:15:44 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

But if we must fight isn’t it best to fight for our way of life with honor and fairness.

....nicely said.

Bullshit. You fight to win. Niceties and rules of engagement are all well and good when you are fighting in a ring. When you are fighting for the survival of your way of life, no holds barred. No one was worried about honor and fairness when we were faced with Japanese Imperialism, and we sure as hell shouldnt worry about it when we're faced with being forced onto prayer rugs 5 times a day.

(in reply to philosophy)

RE: Bush Approved Use of Insects in al-Qaeda Interrogat... - 4/17/2009 12:16:50 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: CruelNUnsual

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

You know, I keep asking this question, will you give a damn when another country uses this as justification for treating our soldiers the same way, maybe your son, daughter, or grandchildren?

You are delusional if you think a terrorist gives a fuck about what we do or dont do.

I'm not talking about terrorists. I'm talking about the precedent we are setting that other countries can use to justify torturing our own in conventional warfare.

I'm talking about the precedent we've set with the whole concept of preemptive war.

Is it that hard to see how these policies are eventually going to come back to bite us in the ass?

No they will have nothing to do with how our POWs are treated. Take out the word terrorist. NO ONE ANYWHERE WILL CHANGE WHAT THEY DO OR DONT DO BECAUSE OF WHAT WE DO OR DONT DO.

and btw the memos that were released were specific to non-Geneva covered combatants..ie terrorists

< Message edited by CruelNUnsual -- 4/17/2009 12:18:31 PM >

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RE: Bush Approved Use of Insects in al-Qaeda Interrogat... - 4/17/2009 12:21:06 PM

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You cant see the difference between fraternity hazing and 179 hours of sleep deprivation at a time?
http://washingtonindependent.com/39254/180-hours-straight-of-sleep-deprivation-is-just-fine
not just once, but time after time??
There really is no hope for you
Edited to add link

< Message edited by Lucylastic -- 4/17/2009 12:49:16 PM >

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RE: Bush Approved Use of Insects in al-Qaeda Interrogat... - 4/17/2009 12:30:40 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: CruelNUnsual

No one was worried about honor and fairness when we were faced with Japanese Imperialism,

....er......so the Allies didn't treat prisoners according to rules of war? Seriously?

quote:

and we sure as hell shouldnt worry about it when we're faced with being forced onto prayer rugs 5 times a day.

....good grief. And when exactly were you faced with this horrible prospect?

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RE: Bush Approved Use of Insects in al-Qaeda Interrogat... - 4/17/2009 12:49:32 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: CruelNUnsual

and btw the memos that were released were specific to non-Geneva covered combatants..ie terrorists

Yes, I brought that up earlier, so maybe you can explain it to me.

Bush said we were involved in wars, but we didn't / don't treat our captives as prisoners of war.

Can you explain to me how that works?

(in reply to CruelNUnsual)

RE: Bush Approved Use of Insects in al-Qaeda Interrogat... - 4/17/2009 2:43:09 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity
Those terrorist planners and leaders weren't citizens, were not entitled to being read their Miranda rights (which didn't exist for them), they were not entitled to lawyers.

Under the rules of Geneva most of them were likely entitled only to a bullet to the head for being illegal combatants, which in my opinion terrorist planners such as they fully deserve.

Those people are ghosts they could be anyone or anything this is the whole problem of not giving people rights to due process; we just can't say for sure who they are or what they did. It always amuses me people think their government lies to them where their interests are concerned but not where the interests of other people are concerned.

Definitions have no meaning at all since your government could snatch you off the street and say it caught you in Afghanistan with an AK in hand. Your government can make you disappear don't you find that a little scary? Sure you have rights but then do you? What separates you? because to me you look like a Chechen rebel trying to infiltrate the US via Idaho, I'm sure you spent ages perfecting that accent of yours but then they teach you how to fit in, in them terrorist training camps don't they? Also I bet you have many fake douments. Your family will vouch for you but then they are in on the plot and so should be held also ITGO.

There is the rule of the law and there is the spirit of the law two different things equally important.

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