RE: On torchure. Obama is WRONG

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Kirata -> RE: On torchure. Obama is WRONG (4/21/2009 2:17:54 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 quote: ORIGINAL: Kirata Yes well, now that I understand your idea of an "attack" I can see your point of view. Errr no, you cant see my point. Oh excuse me, I stand corrected again. Thank you so much. I don't know where the world would be without people who are always right. But surely the most valuable ones of all must be those like yourself, who can read minds. K.

Eigenaar -> RE: On torchure. Obama is WRONG (4/21/2009 2:56:09 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: pahunkboy As an American I am SO embarrassed by this. At one time- we stood for truth and values. Now we don't. Anything that the military uses in war- can trickle over to civilian use meaning YOU. The constitution has been so debased- that one would barely recognize the USA. He who lives by the sword- dies by the sword. .....we have gone so far off the edge- in the totality of our actions, that- I can understand why Americans are hated the world over. When the private banker take over is complete- we too will be a country with no future- no middle class; ....which could lead to a world that no one wants to live in. We screw countries left and right. We con them out of there wealth- make them into peasants- and now that the middle class in America has gotten slothful, sloppy, lazy, dumb, distracted, the Illuminatti are making their move to take out the middle class once and for all. The government must be accountable- but it isnt. We squandered our countries future. We let it happen. America is founded by criminals/racists/terrorists and lead by them since.

Sanity -> RE: On torchure. Obama is WRONG (4/21/2009 3:50:49 AM)
Prior to the utterly newfound ideal of full constitutional rights for nonuniformed combatants captured on the field of battle and held overseas, the only "due process" they had coming to them under the Geneva treaty was execution. And not only are these men nonuniformed combatants but they're the architects of 9/11. At the time they were waterboarded they had names, they had phone numbers and addresses, and they knew all the plans. So, due process... hmm. Looks like these guys got off easy to me, as they're still alive. Legally, apaparently, it wasn't torture else Obama would prosecute. Or do you think that Obama is just some shill for George Bush. quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 Errr no, you cant see my point. Sanity made a point about not having sympathy for the 9/11 planners, Khalid Sheik Mohammed was probably the main architect of that. I have posted before that I dont care if he lives or dies as long as its done via due process. My point on waterboarding, was and is, that its torture, and like i say, many both inside and outside the US agree, including ex members of the Bush administration, such as Richard Armitage.

cadenas -> RE: On torchure. Obama is WRONG (4/21/2009 4:10:48 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sanity Prior to the utterly newfound ideal of full constitutional rights for nonuniformed combatants captured on the field of battle and held overseas, the only "due process" they had coming to them under the Geneva treaty was execution. Actually, the Geneva Convention specifically prohibits the killing of prisoners of war. It also says that there is no such thing as "nonuniformed combatants". Everybody is either a combatant (i.e., a POW) - or has to be treated as a common criminal, with due process. quote: ORIGINAL: Sanity And not only are these men nonuniformed combatants but they're the architects of 9/11. At the time they were waterboarded they had names, they had phone numbers and addresses, and they knew all the plans. Actually, something like 90% ended up proven innocent. And of the about a dozen or so who may actually have had some involvement with terrorism, we will never be able to prove it due to the utter lack of due process.

StrangerThan -> RE: On torchure. Obama is WRONG (4/21/2009 4:18:26 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: cadenas quote: ORIGINAL: Sanity And not only are these men nonuniformed combatants but they're the architects of 9/11. At the time they were waterboarded they had names, they had phone numbers and addresses, and they knew all the plans. Actually, something like 90% ended up proven innocent. And of the about a dozen or so who may actually have had some involvement with terrorism, we will never be able to prove it due to the utter lack of due process. You're mixing numbers. The 90th percentile that you're talking about never underwent water boarding. They were indeed held without due process. At present, there are only 2 or 3 known to have undergone that particular treatment. Those 2 or 3 will will never see freedom again. The bigger story will most likely come from the renditions.

Sanity -> RE: On torchure. Obama is WRONG (4/21/2009 4:36:37 AM)
Prior to the left having granted American constitutional rights to everyone on the planet (which is absurd), enemy combatants caught out of uniform could be treated as spies and saboteurs, and were therefore subject to being summarily executed under the rules of war.

Politesub53 -> RE: On torchure. Obama is WRONG (4/21/2009 5:37:49 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Eigenaar America is founded by criminals/racists/terrorists and lead by them since. Shame on you. This is far from the truth, even for those who disagreed with Bush.

Politesub53 -> RE: On torchure. Obama is WRONG (4/21/2009 5:41:00 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sanity So, due process... hmm. Looks like these guys got off easy to me, as they're still alive. Legally, apaparently, it wasn't torture else Obama would prosecute. My guess, and lets not forget all of us are guessing here, is that the Waterboarding was used to gain information about Al Qaida. There is loads of evidence in the media that KSM planned the attack, especially in a book called the base.

Politesub53 -> RE: On torchure. Obama is WRONG (4/21/2009 5:43:24 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Kirata quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 quote: ORIGINAL: Kirata Yes well, now that I understand your idea of an "attack" I can see your point of view. Errr no, you cant see my point. Oh excuse me, I stand corrected again. Thank you so much. I don't know where the world would be without people who are always right. But surely the most valuable ones of all must be those like yourself, who can read minds. K. Quite ironic considering your posts. I have never claimed to be right and apologised when i have been wrong. I didnt claim to read your mind, only stated you cant see my point, big difference.

rulemylife -> RE: On torchure. Obama is WRONG (4/21/2009 6:02:30 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ZhuRenDianandted i am completely appalled at the Governmental response to terrorist activities. i am shocked at the beheading of that terrorist journalist. i am disgusted for all of the detainees that were killed during interrogation, i am horrified at all the prisoners that were shot for espionage, for being engaged in combat without uniform or any way of determining them to be military. i am sad and distressed at the group of detainees who have been carted to a secret location and shot dead for lack of cooperation. my stomach is turning at how many detainees have been dropped from helicopters without a parachute to soften their compatriots. What??? nobody died during the waterboarding? No reports of murder, execution, accidental deaths or starvation? the guy with the bug in the box not only did not get painfully stung, but did not even have a heart murmur? I see, so you want to redefine torture as something different than the Geneva Conventions. Just like Bush and Cheney, so you're in good company.

Eigenaar -> RE: On torchure. Obama is WRONG (4/21/2009 6:05:58 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 quote: ORIGINAL: Eigenaar America is founded by criminals/racists/terrorists and lead by them since. Shame on you. This is far from the truth, even for those who disagreed with Bush. I have to be ashamed because of the actions of criminals I have no part of? Please explain!

rulemylife -> RE: On torchure. Obama is WRONG (4/21/2009 6:22:40 AM)
The fact it was a caterpillar is irrelevant, he was told it was a stinging insect (of whatever type wasn't specified) and he had a severe phobia about that. Now I think by any definition that falls under mental torture, which is prohibited by the Conventions. Yes, there were legal loopholes the Bush administration used to justify this, and they may have been legally correct, though that is disputable. My question is what does that say about what we have become as a country when we use legal maneuvering to justify something that has, in the past, been against every principle this country stood for.

Sanity -> RE: On torchure. Obama is WRONG (4/21/2009 6:36:19 AM)
Saving untold numbers of innocent men, women and children from further terrorist attacks involves a principle. In the judgment of many, a principle which balances out subjecting such terrorist planners and leaders as these three to being exposed to harmless little bugs or even waterboarding - which is exactly why these things were done. At what point do we decide to win a war, and at what point do we decide to lay down and die or to allow others to die in order for us to say we fought more fairly than terrorists, or in order to say we didn't use harsh interrogation techniques on terrorist leaders and plan makers? quote: My question is what does that say about what we have become as a country when we use legal maneuvering to justify something that has, in the past, been against every principle this country stood for.

rulemylife -> RE: On torchure. Obama is WRONG (4/21/2009 6:36:53 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: StrangerThan quote: ORIGINAL: cadenas Actually, something like 90% ended up proven innocent. And of the about a dozen or so who may actually have had some involvement with terrorism, we will never be able to prove it due to the utter lack of due process. You're mixing numbers. The 90th percentile that you're talking about never underwent water boarding. They were indeed held without due process. At present, there are only 2 or 3 known to have undergone that particular treatment. Those 2 or 3 will will never see freedom again. The three known to have undergone waterboarding is a point I made earlier. We know this by specific government admission. We also know that these three were the worst of the worst, so the government admitting to this wouldn't cause the uproar we would have seen had it admitted to waterboarding prisoners who were later released without charges. Do you really believe that they used waterboarding 266 times on two Al Quaeda leaders but never used it on any other prisoners?

samboct -> RE: On torchure. Obama is WRONG (4/21/2009 6:45:10 AM)
Obama is following in Lincoln's footsteps. Be very patient when making up your mind on a difficult course of action. I'd say what Obama is doing is seeing whether or not Olberman is right- is there a groundswell to prosecute the senior members of the Bush administration? If there isn't- then he loses support for the other tasks on his plate- to whit rebuilding the economy and reducing the impact of anthropogenic CO2. Morally, the correct thing to do is to prosecute Bush et al. I got a chuckle from Maureen Dowd's comment in the NYTimes that George Lucas thought she'd mischaracterized Dick Cheney as Darth Vader. His comment was Cheney was the evil emporer- evil through and through, while GWB was Darth Vader- a good ole' boy from Crawford Texas who'd been seduced by Cheney. It's not quite right- Darth Vader was smart- and GWB is anything but. I agree with the idea that you cannot prosecute the lower level torturers without prosecuting the higher ups. And I'm not sure that Olberman is right in saying that prosecuting GWB without a snowball's chance in hell of obtaining a conviction makes sense. Obama has to lead by example- by following the laws of our Constitution. The people that should have stopped the torture are sitting in the Supreme Court- a point that most people seem to overlook. I'll point out that this is largely the same court that allowed GWB to become "elected" by a decision that couldn't be used for precedence and ignored election fraud in Ohio. Makes you wonder if appointing justices for life is really such a smart idea. But the lessons of Jimmy Carter are still there too. Carter tried to be the most morally upright president we had- and lost to Ronald Reagan because he accomplished little that lasted- and Ronnie the Rayguns just blasted everything in sight. If Obama tries to take the moral high ground here without a lot of public support, what he'll be able to accomplish elsewhere will be extremely limited. Politics is often a tightrope, and Obama's up very high, with no net. Different justices in the Supreme Court would be a big help. I don't want his job.... Sam

rulemylife -> RE: On torchure. Obama is WRONG (4/21/2009 6:51:10 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sanity Saving untold numbers of innocent men, women and children from further terrorist attacks is a principle. In the judgment of many, a principle which balances out subjecting such terrorist planners and leaders as these three to being exposed to harmless little bugs or even waterboarding - which is exactly why these things were done. At what point do we decide to win a war, and at what point do we decide to lay down and die and to allow others to die in order for us to say we fought more fairly than terrorists? If you look up earlier in the thread you'll find a link I posted regarding how we prosecuted Japanese interrogators, who used waterboarding, for war crimes. But now we want to regard it as "a harmless little thing"? How many lives could we have saved in WWII by torturing our prisoners? What you are talking about is not a principle but the abandonment of a principle.

Sanity -> RE: On torchure. Obama is WRONG (4/21/2009 6:57:10 AM)
So your position is warm milk and cookies for captured terrorist planners, regardless of the consequences? Foot rubs, hot tubs. The works?

Owner59 -> RE: On torchure. Obama is WRONG (4/21/2009 7:20:25 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sanity Prior to the left having granted American constitutional rights to everyone on the planet (which is absurd), enemy combatants caught out of uniform could be treated as spies and saboteurs, and were therefore subject to being summarily executed under the rules of war. Wrong,the SCOTUS said it.You know.....the highest court in the land......? Shhh... but we won`t ruin your fantasy world. If you want,you may ignore the rest of the Constitution as well. Folks,notice how he takes a very serious subject and makes jokes and ridicules our morality. As for the President not going after the people who did the torture,you should be delighted.But are you?.......[image]http://www.collarchat.com/micons/m23.gif[/image] lol

rulemylife -> RE: On torchure. Obama is WRONG (4/21/2009 8:17:41 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sanity So your position is warm milk and cookies for captured terrorist planners, regardless of the consequences? Foot rubs, hot tubs. The works? No my position is following the rule of law, not trying to bend and manipulate it to justify something that is unjustifiable.

slvemike4u -> RE: On torchure. Obama is WRONG (4/21/2009 10:46:27 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sanity Prior to the left having granted American constitutional rights to everyone on the planet (which is absurd), enemy combatants caught out of uniform could be treated as spies and saboteurs, and were therefore subject to being summarily executed under the rules of war. Well lets say just for shits and grins we accept your statement....and your logic.They were spies and saboteurs and were therefore subject to execution......you know what they weren't subject too....under that treaty you like to use selectively to bolster your indefensible argument........torture.I will be looking forward to your next attempt to spin and twist the issue.

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