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Taking responsibility - 4/25/2009 7:00:53 PM

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Well at least one politician is honest in this statement:

‘They [Soviet Union] invaded Afghanistan… and we did not want to see them control Central Asia and we went to work… and it was President Reagan in partnership with Congress led by Democrats who said you know what it sounds like a pretty good idea… let’s deal with the ISI and the Pakistan military and let’s go recruit these mujahideen.’

‘And great, let them come from Saudi Arabia and other countries, importing their Wahabi brand of Islam so that we can go beat the Soviet Union.’

‘And guess what … they (Soviets) retreated … they lost billions of dollars and it led to the collapse of the Soviet Union.’

Thoughts on this statement?

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RE: Taking responsibility - 4/25/2009 7:13:51 PM

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The enemy of my enemy is my friend.

Arabian proverb...

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RE: Taking responsibility - 4/25/2009 8:03:16 PM

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Popular wisdom at the time held that the Soviet's ultimate goal was to use Afghanistan as a forward base from which to attack, capture and hold the oil fields and other strategic interests of the Middle East, which would have been completely disastrous for everyone in the world.

Stopping them while at the same time freeing the people of Afghanistan from the Soviet's deadly grip for what was thought to be a very modest price appealed to many at the time as not only a logical solution, but an almost heroic one as well.

< Message edited by Sanity -- 4/25/2009 8:06:50 PM >

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RE: Taking responsibility - 4/25/2009 8:15:54 PM

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Well this politician states that it was both a Republican President supported by a Democratic Congress that supported the idea. Many have stated it was just the "neo-cons" that did this. Also, it illustrates that our present problems are due to foreign policy decisions that were made and supported by both parties.

Wonder if anyone can guess who it is that made these statements, and why they are so important to understand with a foreign policy decision that is being made right now.

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When speaking of slaves people always tend to ignore this definition "One who is abjectly subservient to a specified person or influence."

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RE: Taking responsibility - 4/25/2009 8:30:35 PM

kdsub

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Yes we learned our lesson well in Vietnam...It most likely felt like Christmas in July to the CIA when Russia gave us the opportunity to punish them for peanuts.

We look at it as maybe a mistake today to train and arm fanatics but at the time it was the right decision. None of us have crystal balls and you make the best decision you can with the information provided… They did exactly that.

We have to remember war with Russia would have been infinitely worse, if not fatal to both countries, then the battle we face today against terrorists.

It is and was a good trade.

Butch

(in reply to OrionTheWolf)

RE: Taking responsibility - 4/25/2009 9:11:05 PM

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Nope, I would rather die a quick death.

And don't get me started on war. How I would wage war would startle you. I would go in one side of a country, after some bombing of course, and ground troops would make sure there is not one living Man , Woman or child in that country. Fuck this rebuilding, refugees, all that shit. They are dead, they need nothing.

To do that we must admit that we are nothing but animals, but it would be a helll of alot cheaper. And believe it or not, I think that overall it would cause less human suffering.

The mask of humanity must come off for a time. If we and our allies are to be pre-eminent in the world, get down to business finally dammit. Quit pussyfooting around. Kill. We know how to do that, just start doing it right.

If you don't just kill your enemy, and make their lives miserable, eventually their love of life will lead them to do suicide bombings and things like that. Oh wait, we already have that.

Nevermind that part then.

T

(in reply to kdsub)

RE: Taking responsibility - 4/25/2009 10:01:31 PM

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quote:

‘And guess what … they (Soviets) retreated … they lost billions of dollars and it led to the collapse of the Soviet Union.’

I would argue that this is not correct. Soviets did not loose billions of dollars in Afghanistan. Soviets did not have professional paid army and their military-industrial complex ran on slave wages. They ended the war (after killing about 1 million afghanis) because it damaged their international relations. Afghanistan war contributed very little to SU collapse financially. Basic reasons for Soviet Union collapse were ideological. The system lost its credibility and purpose. The same applies to US. Today's economic problems are ideological (greed plus government corruption).

(in reply to Termyn8or)

RE: Taking responsibility - 4/25/2009 10:15:36 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

Nope, I would rather die a quick death.

And don't get me started on war. How I would wage war would startle you. I would go in one side of a country, after some bombing of course, and ground troops would make sure there is not one living Man , Woman or child in that country. Fuck this rebuilding, refugees, all that shit. They are dead, they need nothing.

To do that we must admit that we are nothing but animals, but it would be a helll of alot cheaper. And believe it or not, I think that overall it would cause less human suffering.

The mask of humanity must come off for a time. If we and our allies are to be pre-eminent in the world, get down to business finally dammit. Quit pussyfooting around. Kill. We know how to do that, just start doing it right.

If you don't just kill your enemy, and make their lives miserable, eventually their love of life will lead them to do suicide bombings and things like that. Oh wait, we already have that.

Nevermind that part then.

T

I agree. Let's make glass. The number of American troops we lose and the time we expend is sickening. If we declare war; wage war.

(in reply to Termyn8or)

RE: Taking responsibility - 4/26/2009 5:46:57 AM

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Just so that everyone knows, it was Secretary Clinton that made this statement, because she had to give a history lesson to the committee she was addressing on Pakistan.

quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

Well at least one politician is honest in this statement:

‘They [Soviet Union] invaded Afghanistan… and we did not want to see them control Central Asia and we went to work… and it was President Reagan in partnership with Congress led by Democrats who said you know what it sounds like a pretty good idea… let’s deal with the ISI and the Pakistan military and let’s go recruit these mujahideen.’

‘And great, let them come from Saudi Arabia and other countries, importing their Wahabi brand of Islam so that we can go beat the Soviet Union.’

‘And guess what … they (Soviets) retreated … they lost billions of dollars and it led to the collapse of the Soviet Union.’

Thoughts on this statement?

_____________________________

When speaking of slaves people always tend to ignore this definition "One who is abjectly subservient to a specified person or influence."

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RE: Taking responsibility - 4/26/2009 7:44:58 AM

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Blow back is always(or at least should be)a consideration when planing a move or policy.

If Joe Wilson is to be believed,Reagen and congress provided little to no leadership in the soviet-Afghan war.

And had even less concern for what happened in Afghanistan after the soviets withdrew.

Any good that came from the soviet defeat turned bad after the crazies took over Afghanistan.

It seemed like we didn`t really care how the mujahideen spent the aid we provided.Some of which was used for Afghan on Afghan tribal fights and internal power struggles.As long as there were dead Russians,we were happy to give them more money and arms.

I never gave Ronnie all the credit for the victory (as cons do).There were many many key players.They all played vital rolls.

And yes,they all share some responsibility too for the blow-back/downside.

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RE: Taking responsibility - 4/26/2009 9:01:38 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

Blow back is always(or at least should be)a consideration when planing a move or policy.

If Joe Wilson is to be believed,Reagen and congress provided little to no leadership in the soviet-Afghan war.

So is Secretary Clinton mistaken in her testimony before that committee?

quote:

And had even less concern for what happened in Afghanistan after the soviets withdrew.

Any good that came from the soviet defeat turned bad after the crazies took over Afghanistan.

Secretary Clinton's comments are reminding Congress that President Reagan with cooperation from a Democrat led congress made the crazies so strong that they took over, and may well take over Pakistan soon.

quote:

It seemed like we didn`t really care how the mujahideen spent the aid we provided.Some of which was used for Afghan on Afghan tribal fights and internal power struggles.As long as there were dead Russians,we were happy to give them more money and arms.

More than just this, read some of the comments made by Secretary Clinton, and look at the history. We actually enticed the import of that craziness from Saudi Arabia.

quote:

I never gave Ronnie all the credit for the victory (as cons do).There were many many key players.They all played vital rolls.

And yes,they all share some responsibility too for the blow-back/downside.

This is Secretary Clinton owning up to the fact that everyone in power at that time shares to responsibility of what occured. She is not mentioning party lines, calling President Reagan "Ronnie" or anything else. She is actually being very centrist and bi-partisan in her comments. The reason for this is that she understand how grave the situation in Pakistan is, and what may occur if it gets worse. I applaud her for that, and for President Obama's team doing what they are doing.

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When speaking of slaves people always tend to ignore this definition "One who is abjectly subservient to a specified person or influence."

(in reply to Owner59)

RE: Taking responsibility - 4/27/2009 11:50:20 PM

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Don't you mean how FDR was allies with Stalin who killed more Jews and innocent people than Hitler could've dreamed of and stayed in power longer than Hitler was? Besides, it was Carter who thought of suppling arms to the Afghanistan Muslims. He even created our Persian Gulf policy, which stated that they US will respond to any attack in the Persian Gulf by Russia and her allies. He created the Delta Force and the Rapid Deployment policy.

< Message edited by gman992 -- 4/27/2009 11:52:42 PM >

(in reply to OrionTheWolf)

RE: Taking responsibility - 4/28/2009 6:40:09 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: gman992

Don't you mean how FDR was allies with Stalin who killed more Jews and innocent people than Hitler could've dreamed of and stayed in power longer than Hitler was? Besides, it was Carter who thought of suppling arms to the Afghanistan Muslims. He even created our Persian Gulf policy, which stated that they US will respond to any attack in the Persian Gulf by Russia and her allies. He created the Delta Force and the Rapid Deployment policy.

It was Carter who supplied small arms to Afganistan but it was Charlie Wilson who got them some real money and finally...the stinger missile to take down Soviet helos.

It was under though Reagan that Bin Laden became a CIA protege' and put on their payroll. You all remember him right ? The 'mastermind' [sic] of 9/11 ?

I am telling you that with what our govt. gets away with...will be our doom.

Oh, and Stalin did NOT kill near as many Jews but did kill or get killed...20 million Russians whose religion and ethnicity was irrelevent.

< Message edited by MrRodgers -- 4/28/2009 6:42:31 AM >

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RE: Taking responsibility - 4/28/2009 7:47:29 AM

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Dunno about Stalin and the Jews. If you look up D6MRD they have some pretty convincing evidence that someone cooked the books. However if you are in Germany, don't look, it is illegal.

T

(in reply to MrRodgers)

RE: Taking responsibility - 4/28/2009 8:34:50 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

Dunno about Stalin and the Jews. If you look up D6MRD they have some pretty convincing evidence that someone cooked the books. However if you are in Germany, don't look, it is illegal.

T

Thanks for advertising a neo-Nazi site.

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RE: Taking responsibility - 4/28/2009 9:25:56 AM

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creeps me out too...

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President Obama

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RE: Taking responsibility - 4/28/2009 10:15:45 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

Dunno about Stalin and the Jews. If you look up D6MRD they have some pretty convincing evidence that someone cooked the books. However if you are in Germany, don't look, it is illegal.

T

Thanks for advertising a neo-Nazi site.

Thanks for saving me the time of looking for it.

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RE: Taking responsibility - 4/28/2009 10:28:02 AM

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You're welcome, boi - you're right not to want to go there. It's repugnant.

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RE: Taking responsibility - 4/28/2009 10:45:39 AM

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boi, do you really want to ?

I have heard from family and others that while Hitler did kill a bunch of Jews, first of all so did the Russians. Second of all they might not have all been Jews. The numbers simply do not add up.

However I am not a denier, I just think someone cooked the books.

Now that we seem to have (temporarily hopefully) segued into this subject, Bishop Williamson has been allowed back into the Catholic church, after being excommunicated by the last Pope for denying the holocaust. By now there is a warrant out for his arrest in Germany.

I'll tell you this much, someone shot themselves in the foot making those obscene laws, because in the lack thereof I would have never questioned any of the "offical facts". Me thinkst they doth protest too much.

Think about that, I would have never questioned it otherwise. And now, how many others ?

Sorry kit, but facts are facts. I know you are watching me :-) But it is the truth, I would have no reasoin to question the "official history" of events of not for that law. When law limits freedom of expression based on it's content, I become VERY interested in that content.

T

(in reply to thishereboi)

RE: Taking responsibility - 4/28/2009 10:53:06 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

Sorry kit, but facts are facts.

Indeed, although obviously not to you.

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