RE: Bigotry Takes Another Hit

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RE: Bigotry Takes Another Hit - 5/1/2009 4:27:07 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

If someone is picked out b/c of their religion ,race or(and now) sexual orientation,that group the individual is from is also targeted and affected.

For the life of me,I can`t figure out we anyone would stand up for the rights of hateful criminals.

Aren`t there some other more worthwhile disparities to fight against?Surely there must be.

Too busy ridding the world of what he decided was trash. Let's hope one of us don't fall into one of his 'must rid the world of that' category or people would be justifying why he was right and wanting us out of their heads.
*shrugs*

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(in reply to Owner59)

RE: Bigotry Takes Another Hit - 5/1/2009 5:05:28 AM

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As I recall, Terrorisim is a crime unto itself. By committing terrorisim, (or being merely suspected of being involved with it) you lose all rights, you can be incarcerated indefinitely without charge, kept from having any legal representation, have no recourse to challenge your being thrown into a prison pit, tortured, and even killed and no one says boo.

Somehow, getting off with a stiffer sentance for waiting outside a gay bar just so you can bash a couple coming out, (but still being within the constitutionally defined legal system) seems far more fair than gutting our own principles and ideals as a country.

Since when can conservative republicans be allowed to speak about "what's fair" when it comes to the justice system? Aren't they the ones who've been trying to politisize the federal courts, to make sure no one who is part of a minority, or a dissenting voice, can get a "fair" trial in this country?

(in reply to Louve00)

RE: Bigotry Takes Another Hit - 5/1/2009 5:16:58 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

If someone is picked out b/c of their religion ,race or(and now) sexual orientation,that group the individual is from is also targeted and affected.

For the life of me,I can`t figure out we anyone would stand up for the rights of hateful criminals.

Hmmm...

Wouldn't that mean that if a woman is picked out to be raped... then it is a crime against all women and it should warrant hate crime status?

Unless, of course, the rapist is an equal opportunity rapist that rapes both men and women.

Problem is, Owner, that some criminals target their victims for specific reasons all the time. Some muggers only prey on the elderly... some rapists rape only women... some burglars only target the wealthy... some robbers only rob from business owners... some murderers kill only the weak and helpless...

Your justification for classifying hate crime could be applied to any of these cases. So why aren't those communities of people worth the extra attention, too?

Come to think of it, any time a criminal commits a crime he or she is violating the law-abiding community.

No one is standing up for the rights of hateful criminals. We are just saying that laws and punishments already exist for crime. Courts already consider mitigating or exacerbating circumstances when trying individual cases and determining punishment. There is no need to create disparate classifications of crimes to treat specific groups of people with more consideration than any other group of people.

< Message edited by TreasureKY -- 5/1/2009 5:26:54 AM >

(in reply to Owner59)

RE: Bigotry Takes Another Hit - 5/1/2009 5:59:13 AM

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This is just a fast reply...
I sort of look at hate crimes in a bit of a different way. A crime committed by any ole criminal is an indescriminate crime. Granted, he may have set out to rob, rape, murder, or anything. Like the Craigslist killer. He had no specific *one* person in mind. He was out to get anyone who he could prey on. But, after listening to a thing and deciding on your own..."Ya know, I think this group of people are scum of the earth and we should get rid of them...or show them a thing or two" is targetting one specific group of people only because they are doing something that the perpetrator doesnt like or approve of. We already have law enforcement officials. We don't need little mini vigilantes out there to mingle in with the people who are robbing, raping and murdering because they're wired the wrong way. I wouldnt say it is so much that a hate crime deserves more attention or 'punishment' than a different kind of offender. But people who commit crimes for the reason of pure hatred and hatred alone are feeling its their 'job to save the world'. Me personally, don't want salvation that way. And I don't want people to look at them lackadaisically [sp]...and tell me they are no different than any other offender, either. They think of themselves as saving the world, in a sick, twisted way

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(in reply to TreasureKY)

RE: Bigotry Takes Another Hit - 5/1/2009 6:22:53 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

I am against all hate crime legislation, because it is on it's face projecting that it is fair to be unfair. And that is for the supposed purpose to be fair.

You can't have it both ways. No matter which side of the fence you fall on, any sane person should see the irony, and while I appreciate irony, it has no place in law. Period.

T

Hate crime legislation is discrimination based on sexual orientation... something I mistakenly thought the GLBT crowd was steadfastly against.

(in reply to Termyn8or)

RE: Bigotry Takes Another Hit - 5/1/2009 6:29:13 AM

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The article is from September 2007.

"Supporters of the bill drew the ire of some Republicans, who said the bill was not germane to the defense bill and could jeopardize Pentagon programs if President Bush decides to veto it. The White House has not yet issued a formal position on the measure."

I must have been the only one who actually read it.

(in reply to Owner59)

RE: Bigotry Takes Another Hit - 5/1/2009 6:29:21 AM

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Poor poor criminals....

So down troden....

Good thing they have their defenders keep the sentences "fair"....

< Message edited by Owner59 -- 5/1/2009 6:30:29 AM >

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RE: Bigotry Takes Another Hit - 5/1/2009 7:19:31 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sirsholly

quote:

The government has an unquestionable right to hold us accountable for our actions. Hate crimes do that, but add on an extra penalty for our thoughts while committing a crime.

I want the government to stay OUT of my head. The implications of criminal charges for thoughts scares me a lot.

i do not think it is the thought WHILE committing the crime, Steven. Rather i think it is the intent behind the crime.

You're of course correct, holly. But that does not affect my main point, which is that this would take thoughts and make them a crime.

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RE: Bigotry Takes Another Hit - 5/1/2009 7:36:05 AM

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Man, it just keeps getting worse and worse.... We are not even four months into this train wreck, and i barely even recognize America any more .... i have never been this scared for my country in my life.(and i remember when Russia was a super power)

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(in reply to Owner59)

RE: Bigotry Takes Another Hit - 5/1/2009 8:35:17 AM

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FR

My main point is crime is crime and shoujld be dealt with harshly. A murder victim is no less dead if it is the result of a White on White, Gay on Gay, Straight on Straight or Martian on Martian. They are just as dead, or robbed or maimed or raped or whatever.

This is a VERY VERY dangerous path to take, not only because it seeks to apparently give more rights to certain people, but you almost figure for sure that it will not be applied correctly. And that is only if you accept the intent of the law, I do not.

If you want equality, at least when it comes to the law, take it. There should never be such a thing as being more equal, it makes no sense logically and goes against just about everything many stand for.

The inequality of justice in this country is not the only thing that sticks in my craw, it is people's acceptance of it. We have lost touch with those high ideals that we thought were so important at one time.

Not to hijack, but to mention. You have a rape/murder victim. She is pretty, a straight A med student. Philanthopic in nature, a good person. The prosecution has her picture and bio up there during the trial.

Now I ask you, if she were a butt ugly bitch, would her life be worth any less ?

Let me put it this way, any reason to apply the law unequally to all is simply wrong. For example if a Gay and a Straight Man are fighting, do you think it's right for the Gay Man to be able to say "HAHA, if I win I only get ten years, if you win you get twenty" ? That is no more fair than if the situations were reversed.

Just like reverse racism is still racism. If you want equality you MUST accept that others are just as equal. If you want a superior position in society, just say so and see how far you get.

Never forget that if we don't hang together we shall surely hang seperately.

T

(in reply to breatheasone)

RE: Bigotry Takes Another Hit - 5/1/2009 1:30:45 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: breatheasone

Man, it just keeps getting worse and worse.... We are not even four months into this train wreck, and i barely even recognize America any more .... i have never been this scared for my country in my life.(and i remember when Russia was a super power)

Funny, that's the exact same way I felt after Bush decided preemptive war, which America had never engaged in, was something we should be doing.

That's the exact same way I felt after seeing the pictures and accounts from Abu-Ghraib.

That's the exact same way I felt when Bush decided to do an end-around to bypass both international and U.S. law
by holding prisoners without charges, without a court hearing, and without the right to legal counsel.

By the way, hate crime laws have been around for a while, this isn't something new, just expanded.

< Message edited by rulemylife -- 5/1/2009 1:32:41 PM >

(in reply to breatheasone)

RE: Bigotry Takes Another Hit - 5/1/2009 2:23:53 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

explain the irony to Matthew Shepard`s mom.

How about you start explaining to mothers of murdered children that the value of their child's life is less than the value of another child's life.

You can have it one way or the other. Either you're evaluating the value of a life based upon sexual orientation or color, or you're enacting legislation that attempts thought control.

Actually, you're doing both and doing in it a country where freedom includes the right to dislike anything or anyone you want and where we are supposedly in the greater search for all being equal.

This kind of bullshit is exactly the reason we never will be.

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RE: Bigotry Takes Another Hit - 5/1/2009 3:02:31 PM

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Actually we've been enacting laws on action control not thought. Nobody gives a tinkers damn if you hate what ever group but the moment you act on that hate you're over the line.

As far as it goes hate crime laws are rarely invoked for murder. They are usually invoked for assault charges. I personally am fine with someone going to prison for a long stretch for beating someone based on ethnicty etc. which will hopefully prevent him from escalating to murder.

(in reply to StrangerThan)

RE: Bigotry Takes Another Hit - 5/1/2009 3:13:25 PM

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We treat crimes of passion differently than premeditated ones.

Accidental deaths aren`t capital crimes.Premeditated murder is however, a capital crime.

State of mind and intent have always been mitigating/aggravating factors in a trial and sentencing.

So there is a difference between types of homicides and differing punishments.

This has been true for centuries and nothing new.

< Message edited by Owner59 -- 5/1/2009 3:16:41 PM >

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RE: Bigotry Takes Another Hit - 5/1/2009 3:19:02 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: breatheasone

Man, it just keeps getting worse and worse.... We are not even four months into this train wreck, and i barely even recognize America any more .... i have never been this scared for my country in my life.(and i remember when Russia was a super power)

What is it that`s getting worse.

Serious question.

_____________________________

"As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals"

President Obama

(in reply to breatheasone)

RE: Bigotry Takes Another Hit - 5/1/2009 3:31:27 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

State of mind and intent have always been mitigating/aggravating factors in a trial and sentencing.

So there is a difference between types of homicides and differing punishments.

This has been true for centuries and nothing new.

Being a central floridian...and hearing on a daily, blow by blow basis about the Caylee Marie Anthony (or Casey Anthony case)...you are nothing but absolutely right about it having to do with state of mind and intent. Both on the one accused and the accusors. If I haven't learned one thing about this world, its that I have learned people will go to any and all extents to do what they want to do. Right, legal...or not.

_____________________________

For the great majority of mankind are satisfied with appearance, as though they were realities and are often more influenced by the things that seem than by those that are. - Niccolo Machiavelli

(in reply to Owner59)

RE: Bigotry Takes Another Hit - 5/1/2009 3:46:57 PM

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Okay... is it a thought crime when a group of guys go out into a parking lot of a gay bar, (one with a much larger set of straight bars in the same neighborhood) and they vandalize ONLY the cars in the gay bars lot? They bash out windows, key the paintjobs, spray paint "faggot" on some of them, slash tires... and mybe set fire to a few of them, just for good measure. Then, the owners of said cars come streaming out of the club, and a huge fight starts... The cops don't show up for an hour or two...(becuase let's face it, they just don't want to respond to calls for help from gay men) But, since plenty of the patrons of the bar happen to carry handcuffs, the perps are detained until they finally DO show up...

Does this sound like a THOUGHT CRIME?

(BTW, this scenario is not just something I made up off the top of my head. It's based on something I was witness to back in 1982.)

(in reply to Louve00)

RE: Bigotry Takes Another Hit - 5/1/2009 4:40:41 PM

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This is an absurd piece of feel-good legislation.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

Poor poor criminals....

So down troden....

Good thing they have their defenders keep the sentences "fair"....

Please tell me you're not so ignorant as to actually believe people against hate crim legislation are trying to "defend" these scum.

No, our point is that scum should be dealt with like scum.

My first girlfriend ages ago was being sexually molested by her dad (who was a cop) for over a decade, since she was like 7 years old. Sorry, you can't tell me she suffered any less, or deserves less justice because of not being gay/lesbian/minority.

Or that when a woman gets raped and murdered, that other women in her community feel any less threatened than gays would if it was a gay who was raped and killed.

(in reply to Owner59)

RE: Bigotry Takes Another Hit - 5/1/2009 5:07:35 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: StrangerThan

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

explain the irony to Matthew Shepard`s mom.

How about you start explaining to mothers of murdered children that the value of their child's life is less than the value of another child's life.

You can have it one way or the other. Either you're evaluating the value of a life based upon sexual orientation or color, or you're enacting legislation that attempts thought control.

Actually, you're doing both and doing in it a country where freedom includes the right to dislike anything or anyone you want and where we are supposedly in the greater search for all being equal.

This kind of bullshit is exactly the reason we never will be.

It is not a case that one victim is worth less than another.....it is the crime and its motivation being judged,not the victim.When irrational fear and irrational ignorance combine with hate to motivate aggresive criminal activity a society needs to address that issue.Ignoring the motivation for such a heinous violent crime,not treating the cancer that is hate....failing to send the message that bigotry fueling violence will carry extra panalties means society ignores the special circumstance?

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RE: Bigotry Takes Another Hit - 5/1/2009 5:54:13 PM

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Bigotry in itself is not worse than rape/assault/murder.

Hate in itself is not worse than rape/assault/murder.

(Or else people like the Phelpses would be in prison).

Once you commit violence/rape/murder, it should not be tolerated...for ANY reason. We shouldn't give less punishment for it just because it was done to a straight white girl instead of a black gay one.

(in reply to slvemike4u)

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