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RE: Bigotry Takes Another Hit - 5/1/2009 8:35:09 PM   
StrangerThan


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quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

quote:

ORIGINAL: StrangerThan

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

explain the irony to Matthew Shepard`s mom.


How about you start explaining to mothers of murdered children that the value of their child's life is less than the value of another child's life.

You can have it one way or the other. Either you're evaluating the value of a life based upon sexual orientation or color, or you're enacting legislation that attempts thought control.

Actually, you're doing both and doing in it a country where freedom includes the right to dislike anything or anyone you want and where we are supposedly in the greater search for all being equal.

This kind of bullshit is exactly the reason we never will be.
It is not a case that one victim is worth less than another.....it is the crime and its motivation being judged,not the victim.When irrational fear and irrational ignorance combine with hate to motivate aggresive criminal activity a society needs to address that issue.Ignoring the motivation for such a heinous violent crime,not treating the cancer that is hate....failing to send the message that bigotry fueling violence will carry extra panalties means society ignores the special circumstance?


you know mike, we're on opposing ends of a lot of discussions, but most of the time I can at least see the point. What I see here is a lot of talking in circles by those who agree with this kind of legislation. It's not the thought, it is the cancer of that thought. Can we twist it anymore?:

Yes, I'm sure we can.

Bottom line, whether you intend it or not you are evaluating life based upon sexual preference and ethnicity. And if you feel that's correct, then by all means feel it to be correct. I would suggest however, that you do not stand in front of a mother or father who's child was molested, raped, killed and attempt to explain that guilt ridden rationalization to them when the perpetrator serves less time than the man down the street who cried queer before he committed the same crime.

One is not less beaten, not less raped, not less dead, not less abused, but is less protected by this type of legislation when the perpetrator cannot be proven to have committed a hate crime. That is the bottom line. Their attacker will emerge earlier, and with less stigma. Now justify that to me. Better yet, trundle yourself off to the nearest morgue, find a fresh corpse, wait for the grieving family and explain to them why they deserve less justice.



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RE: Bigotry Takes Another Hit - 5/1/2009 8:41:46 PM   
slvemike4u


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Status: offline 		Manslaughter committed while driving drunk nets you one sentence,minus the alcohol another.Premeditated murder still another sentence.Justice has allways measured intent,circumstance and motive.Whats the problem with looking at crimes committed purely in the extension of hate.

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RE: Bigotry Takes Another Hit - 5/1/2009 8:43:45 PM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY
You find this fair, somehow?


I find it more fair than protecting christians from hate crimes and not protecting gay people from hate crimes many of which are perpetrated by christians.

The issues of unfairness that have been brought up are valid, but I don't think they mean that we need to take terrorism less seriously. They seem instead to be conveying frustration that there are a number of violent crimes that our government is too soft on. Personally I think that first degree murder should be serious enough that whether or not it was a hate crime should be irrelevant at that point.

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RE: Bigotry Takes Another Hit - 5/1/2009 8:44:22 PM   
cohenne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

Hate crimes aren`t just intended for individuals.

They are also against the community.

The two male murderers were "homosexual hunting" when they tricked and attacked Shepard and left him to die.

They were attempting to TERRORize the gay community as well as the victim.

For this reason,hate crimes are different and need extra attention.







If I go around shooting random people wouldn't that scare anyone in the community regardless of  who is targeted?

Let me use a very pathetic "hate crime scenario."

I hop in my car with my gun. I stop at a stop light and see a man walking down the sidewalk. I role down my window and ask him if I can have one quarter. He says "yes"; I shoot him in the face. I continue driving down the street; I see a women and ask her the same question; she says f*ck off; I drive off. Than, I ask the same question to another man; he says yes; I shoot him in the face.

The theme if the story is that I am targeting those who are willing to give me a quarter.

The question I ask you is: should we pass a hate crime law to protect "quarter givers"?

Based on your logic Owner59; we should. Because, I was targeting the quarter giving community and the two men who were willing to give me a quarter.

Do you see the absurdity in your logic Owner?

< Message edited by cohenne -- 5/1/2009 9:01:43 PM >

(in reply to Owner59)
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RE: Bigotry Takes Another Hit - 5/1/2009 9:09:29 PM   
Owner59


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Status: offline 		I don`t do hypotheticals.Especially silly ones.

I`ll discuss an actual case,though.The law, is based on and written on actual cases and real events.

< Message edited by Owner59 -- 5/1/2009 9:12:17 PM >

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RE: Bigotry Takes Another Hit - 5/1/2009 9:23:13 PM   
cohenne


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Status: offline 		Columbine scared the community\targeted specific individuals
Virginia Tech scared the community\targeted specific individuals
The man who went in to a school and killed 8 women in Utah or Organ scared the community\targeted specific individuals
Homosexual hunters scared the community\targeted specific individuals

Need more actual cases?

What do all of these situations have in common? All of the killers killed individuals for specfic reasons such as, the Columbine shooters targeted their bullies, the Virgina Tech student killed anyone that he can at his school (which was a group of people I.E students, teachers, facilty staff), Utah or Organ killer shot 8 young girls, and the homosexual hunters targeted homosexuals. A murder which has been done is a murder; it doesn't matter who was targeted or why they were killed.

your logic:

Hate crime protection for the following: female students, students, teachers, facility staff of schools, and bullies.

< Message edited by cohenne -- 5/1/2009 9:26:27 PM >

(in reply to Owner59)
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RE: Bigotry Takes Another Hit - 5/1/2009 9:33:43 PM   
Owner59


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Status: offline 		Mental illness is the big factor in mass shootings.

The assholes who targeted Matthew Shepard weren`t and never claimed to be mentally ill.

Same with the punks who gather to target homosexuals for beatings and worse near gay bars/clubs.They aren`t mental cases but rather thrill seekers.

~~~~~~~

Again I would ask why anyone cares what sentences thugs get or whether they get years tacked on.The more years the better.

What is the downside for society if someone gets more years ~added on~?

I don`t see one.

It doesn`t affect me and never will.

It doesn`t affect law abiding citizens and never will.

Can someone explain why they feel they are affected by hate crime laws.

< Message edited by Owner59 -- 5/1/2009 9:41:50 PM >

_____________________________

"As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals"

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Profile   Post #: 47
RE: Bigotry Takes Another Hit - 5/1/2009 9:41:36 PM   
cohenne


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Status: offline 		Do you have a psychology degree owner? If so, have you interviewed all of those "mass shooters." The kids at columbine were not mentally ill and the fellow who killed those 8 girls had a very bad day and snapped by running in to a school to kill 8 teenage girls. In addition, how do you know that the homosexual hunters don't have a mental disorder? Have you interviewed them? I would imagine that getting a thrill off of killing somebody is perhaps insane or at minimal subnormal.

To answer your question about why we are affected by them.

3 reasons

1. they pass these laws (politicians) just so you can go out and vote for them
2. A murder is a murder, I don't see why a homosexual life is worth more than mine or somebody else s.
3. I CAN'T UNDERSTAND WHY A MURDER OF A CERTAIN GROUP OF INDIVIDUALS (I.E Jewish ( I am Jewish by the way), blacks, Mexicans, etc.) IS MORE SERIOUS THAN THE MURDER OF OTHERS.

I don't see anything wrong with sending a murder to prison for the rest of his life; however, it is the principle of the matter: you kill homosexual you get 20 years, you kill the white man you get 5 years. wtf!

< Message edited by cohenne -- 5/1/2009 9:53:01 PM >

(in reply to Owner59)
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RE: Bigotry Takes Another Hit - 5/1/2009 9:43:42 PM   
Owner59


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From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline 		If you commit suicide,that pretty much means you`re mentally ill.

< Message edited by Owner59 -- 5/1/2009 9:44:06 PM >

_____________________________

"As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals"

President Obama

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Profile   Post #: 49
RE: Bigotry Takes Another Hit - 5/1/2009 11:20:51 PM   
slvemike4u


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Status: offline 		Don't go and get all technical on us Owner......

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


(in reply to Owner59)
Profile   Post #: 50
RE: Bigotry Takes Another Hit - 5/1/2009 11:39:25 PM   
Owner59


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From: Dirty Jersey
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Still waiting for someone to demand a link...

_____________________________

"As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals"

President Obama

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Profile   Post #: 51
RE: Bigotry Takes Another Hit - 5/2/2009 2:45:01 AM   
StrangerThan


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quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

Manslaughter committed while driving drunk nets you one sentence,minus the alcohol another.Premeditated murder still another sentence.Justice has allways measured intent,circumstance and motive.Whats the problem with looking at crimes committed purely in the extension of hate.


What you're asking is equvalent to me suing you for ice on your steps, and several million people joining in on a class action suit. You're creating classes of people inherently more protected by law than others. Those classes are based soley upon ethnicity and sexual orientation. There is no justice in that stance. There is no equality in that stance. Add to the fact that hate crime is a misnomer. It has nothing to do with hate. If it did, all crimes committed as an extension of hate would be covered not just those perpetrated against those of a different sexual orientation or ethnic group.

Call it anyway you want to, but what you're really doing is insisting that the value of one life exceeds that of another based soley upon those two factors. If you want to increase punishments across the board, I'm agreeable with that but never will I be agreeable with the hate crime crowd. I tend to think most crimes are crimes of hate. I also tend to think the application of these kinds of laws is inherently prejudiced where one group of society will always be under scrutiny for supposed hate, while others will rarely be held to the same standard.

There is no justice in this kind of legislation, not for a nation as a whole.

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RE: Bigotry Takes Another Hit - 5/2/2009 5:16:34 AM   
JstAnotherSub


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if you take a life, you should give yours.  my opinion only of course.

a friends son was shot and killed while riding his bike, when he was only 18 years old.  because the ass that shot him didnt also take his wallet or steal the bike or something, it was not a death penalty case.  to me, thats bullshit.

i dont care if you rob them or beat them because you want their money or because you hate their "type"......do the crime, do the same time.

the most time allowed for the crime, in all instances, not just hate ones.

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yep

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RE: Bigotry Takes Another Hit - 5/2/2009 6:37:49 AM   
DarkSteven


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

If you commit suicide,that pretty much means you`re mentally ill.


Owner, I believe that this post implies that the murderers killed others to get themselves killed - that their murders were a form of suicide.  Is that it?

If so, I disagree.

1. They may have had so much hate that their own death was an acceptable price to pay for killing so many others.

2. Traditional suicides simply kill themselves.  That's their goal, and they do it directly, not take a lot of other people with them.  The suicide's focus is not on others.


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The small-breasted ones want larger breasts. The large-breasted ones want smaller ones. The straight-haired ones curl their hair, and the curly-haired ones straighten theirs...

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RE: Bigotry Takes Another Hit - 5/2/2009 7:06:04 AM   
Termyn8or


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Status: offline 		"The kids at columbine were not mentally ill "

Correction. They were on SSRIs. That has no bearing on the topic at hand though, except that I will say whack them anyway.

In other words, as much as I am against hate crime legislation, I also think that mental problems should not be any type of defense. Let the actions define the crime, period.

T

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RE: Bigotry Takes Another Hit - 5/2/2009 7:17:20 AM   
sirsholly


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quote:

I also think that mental problems should not be any type of defense. Let the actions define the crime, period.
Term...a blanket statement such as that does not fly. There ARE mental issues that are a defense, and rightly so.

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RE: Bigotry Takes Another Hit - 5/2/2009 8:19:23 AM   
Termyn8or


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Status: offline 		I disagree. Laws exist for the good of society supposedly. As said, the dead are just as dead. The only valid defense for a killing is defense. Provisions should also be made for euthenasia, but that is very tricky to implement.

I know it is hard to agree with for some. But if someone will kill you for your tennis shoes, there is something wrong with them. If they rape and kill you there is something wrong. That should be no more of an excuse than intoxication on drugs or alcohol.

I am also for the repeal of all DUI laws, and make the punishment result based. Cause a wreck that is vandalism, hurt someone it is assault and battery, with a deadly weapon I would add, if you kill someone, then the determination to be made is whether it was intentional or not, based on the evidence. It could be murder, or voluntary or involuntary manslaughter. And it should not matter if one uses a gun, knife or a car.

To do otherwise is the same type of discrimination, because if you a killed by a crazy person, was your life worth any less ?

You just can't have it both ways.

T

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RE: Bigotry Takes Another Hit - 5/2/2009 8:27:10 AM   
sirsholly


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quote:

if you a killed by a crazy person, was your life worth any less ?
no one is saying life is worth any less when killed by someone with a mental defense. It is no reflection on the victim. Rather, it is a question of whether or not the perpetrator was legally responsible  for their own behavior.

I can recall a court case in this area a few years ago. A man raped and murdered a 19 year old girl. Prior to his trial her dad shot and killed him. He was found to be innocent by reasons of temporary insanity.

By your theory, Term, he should have been found guilty of murder.    

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Profile   Post #: 58
RE: Bigotry Takes Another Hit - 5/2/2009 9:03:58 AM   
Termyn8or


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Status: offline 		The government should've killed the perp. More info is needed. Did he do it at the time or did he stalk the guy out and snipe him in a dark alley later ?

And of course if he could have faith that the perp would've been executed by the government he wouldn't have had to do it, would he ?

I don't expect you to agree. Far too many people have been indocrinated with certain ideas which I have not. If I were the Father in that case I would have planned for months, and did my damndest to get away with it. However if I had the belief that the government would kill him I would not have to go to the trouble. I REALLY don't expect you to agree with that.

Really I am glad not to have these problems. Nobody has murdered any of my family or chosen family, and I have not murdered anyone. In that case you mentioned, I would give consideration to the idea that the Father's actions were defense, although she was already dead, if the Father could get to the perp, that means the perp would also be able to get to other victims. In that way he was, in a way, defending his community.

The premise that good Men should be able, willing and encouraged to defend themselves and their loved ones is the fulcrum of my belief system. To believe otherwise I think the thinking is tainted, twisted. You may see my statements as twisted, but that is subjective. And as you know I don't care if 99% of the people disagree with me, I still think what is right is right.

If you would like to go on with this, let's start another thread, me thinkst I might be picking up a reputation as a hijacker around here and I would like to stem that. In fact I think it would make a pretty good topic anyway.

T

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RE: Bigotry Takes Another Hit - 5/2/2009 11:16:05 AM   
rulemylife


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Status: offline 		This is a general reply to all who have taken the position that any crime of hatred is a hate crime.

If you shoot your Jewish neighbor because he was sleeping with your wife then obviously you hated him, but it is not a hate crime, because you shot him for sleeping with your wife not because he was Jewish.

On the other hand, if you are a member of the Aryan Nation and shot him strictly because he was Jewish then it was what hate crime laws are intended to target.

They were, and are, meant to be very narrowly-defined laws.

They are meant for cases like Matthew Shepard and James Byrd, who was the black man dragged to his death behind a pickup truck in Texas for no other reason than his murderers hated blacks.



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