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RE: The death penalty - 5/3/2009 2:30:26 PM

Raechard

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or
Fine then. but I see no reason for him to make it up.

That old thing called ego and not wanting to face the sad reality of 20 years missing from his life.

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RE: The death penalty - 5/3/2009 2:48:40 PM

Termyn8or

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At least a third of the people I know have been in prison, and the stories are very similar. If you got money you live pretty good. I have also known people who were involved in smuggling things into prisons, and it was not toilet paper. I have no reason to disbelieve this person. I have heard too much from others, in fact I have been told that I would probably do quite well there.

Not that I am going, I am too old for that crap. But in this case it was consistent with what I've heard from others. The fact is, with money it seems you can live well almost anywhere. Imagine having $40,000 in your commisary, people with money run stores, loansharking ventures, all kinds of things. They make money doing tattoos and other things. In fact he showed me today a tattoo gun made from a spoon, a motor from a cassette palyer and a few other miscellaneous parts. I saw it with my own eyes and he says he actually uses it on the outside. Yes it is illegal without all the licenses and all that, but he doesn't care.

He actually asked me for some used (broken) guitar strings, that is what they make the needles out of, and he is a bit low right now. Actually seeing the gun itself for the first time, I was a bit impressed that they could do this while incarcerated, but they did.

T

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RE: The death penalty - 5/3/2009 2:53:51 PM

OrionTheWolf

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The reason the number is significant, is that the percentage that are supposed to be innocent that are serving 20+ year sentences is supposed to be greater than those that are on death row. The reason I read, is that the death penalty has many other types of appeals and legal processes. This is significant to me as the life someone had before being sentenced and serving a 20 year sentence is changed to such a degree that the difference between that and death, is they often come out a more hardened criminal because the lived in the prison culture so long. To me both are huge travesties of justice, but it does not seem to cause as much clamour if we lock them away and forget about them.

Loopholes may well be constitutional protections, I did not look into each case, just the ones that showed exoneration.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda

quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

People keeping posting the 130+ as found innocent, when in fact only 32 of them were exonerated of the crime. The others either got off on legal loopholes and were not retried on the same charge, or prosecutors decided to not retry them. Only those exonerated would be actually innocent, meaning they actually were in no way involved. The others were kicked back for various other reasons, and may or may not have been involved. In many of those instances those inmates were not released as they were also found guilty of other charges related to the crime (this being one of the reasons stated by some prosecutors as why they did not retry the case).

A couple of thinsg here. First of all, am I misreading you or are you arguing that while the execution of 130 innocent people may be excessive, the execution of only 32 might not be so bad? And second, I'd argue that a lot of what you're calling "legal loopholes" here probably fall into the category of what I'd call "Constitutional protections." I couldn't grab hold of that argument too firmly without knowing the details of the specific "loopholes", but I feel safe in assuming that would largely be the case.

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RE: The death penalty - 5/3/2009 2:53:57 PM

ThatDamnedPanda

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

Fine then. but I see no reason for him to make it up.

I'm not talking about his story in general, I'm just talking about his assertion that the parole board told him he'd have done less time if he'd actually killed the guy. At best, it sounds like selective misinterpretation on his part, or that he's leaving some of the details out of the conversation.

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RE: The death penalty - 5/3/2009 2:55:12 PM

Raechard

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Well Term I'd rather live a pauper and have the free will to go anywhere I please than live in lavish accommodation with bars on the windows. Luxury is over rated when compared with freedom.

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RE: The death penalty - 5/3/2009 2:57:07 PM

calamitysandra

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

The only way I would be for CP is with irrefutable evidence... the percentage is not important to me...should it be to you?
...
Butch

Truly irrefutable evidence is something you can find only rarely.

As Panda pointed out, you would have two tiers of guilty:

Truly, no doubt possible at all, caught in the act guilty,
and
"only" guilty without reasonable doubt.

Do you want the "simply" guilty ones set free, or do you advocate a systems with two classes of guilty?

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RE: The death penalty - 5/3/2009 3:03:29 PM

rulemylife

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

Fine then. but I see no reason for him to make it up.

T

You see no reason why someone who did twenty years for attempted murder would make something up?

And I thought I was too trusting.

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RE: The death penalty - 5/3/2009 3:05:05 PM

ThatDamnedPanda

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

The only way I would be for CP is with irrefutable evidence... the percentage is not important to me...should it be to you?

I'm sorry, but I have no idea what you said here.

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
Now I do understand your position on what is civilized and what is not… it is an honest position… The rest of your arguments hold no weight if proper safeguards in the laws governing CP are installed.

To address your only valid argument…what is civilized and what is not….well it is up the civilization would you not say?

That's the only valid argument you noticed in my post?

What about the part where I pointed out that different degrees of guilt are unconstitutional? How did you miss that? What about the part whereI pointed out that your fantasy scenario, where the judicial system has access to some sort of Magic 8-Ball that consistently allows them to ascertain the exact details of a crime without any doubt or human subjectivity whatsoever, is completely impossible on a systemic level? Those both sounded like pretty valid arguments when i typed them, and in fact still do. If you think they're invalid arguments, please explain why you think the Constitution would not be violated by establishing different degrees of guilt, and exactly what these "proper safeguards", and this infallible means of deciding which evidence is irrefutable, would look like.

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RE: The death penalty - 5/3/2009 3:10:01 PM

kdsub

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quote:

ORIGINAL: calamitysandra

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

The only way I would be for CP is with irrefutable evidence... the percentage is not important to me...should it be to you?
...
Butch

Truly irrefutable evidence is something you can find only rarely.

As Panda pointed out, you would have two tiers of guilty:

Truly, no doubt possible at all, caught in the act guilty,
and
"only" guilty without reasonable doubt.

Do you want the "simply" guilty ones set free, or do you advocate a systems with two classes of guilty?

No I only want to kill people that there is no chance or doubt of innocence and there are those cases ... the others with less evidence even if overwhelming should be remanded to life without parole. There are already varying degrees of murder.

Butch

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RE: The death penalty - 5/3/2009 3:11:24 PM

ThatDamnedPanda

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Raechard

Well I'd still be outside the prison walls.

Do you have any idea what you'd be paying in taxes?

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RE: The death penalty - 5/3/2009 3:16:11 PM

kdsub

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Just to add... in the age of the video cameras irrefutable evidence is not rare. As long as there were eyewitness or overwhelming physical evidence to go along with the video then I would be for CP.

Butch

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RE: The death penalty - 5/3/2009 3:22:22 PM

kittinSol

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Raiikun
If a person is convicted, then sentenced to death, then immediately taken and fried...it'd cost a lot less than imprisoning them for life.

There's this annoying little thing called due process of law - and appeal makes for quite a large part of it. Are you arguing in favour of modifying the constitution and the Bill of Rights in order to carry out swifter executions?

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RE: The death penalty - 5/3/2009 3:27:35 PM

ThatDamnedPanda

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

quote:

ORIGINAL: Raiikun
If a person is convicted, then sentenced to death, then immediately taken and fried...it'd cost a lot less than imprisoning them for life.

There's this annoying little thing called due process of law - and appeal makes for quite a large part of it. Are you arguing in favour of modifying the constitution and the Bill of Rights in order to carry out swifter executions?

Just think how much we could save if we skipped the trial, too. Hell, that's gotta be good for at least a couple of new aircraft carriers a year, no?

And this whole business of arresting people, and taking them to jail, and giving them free room and board.... fuck that. If the cop thinks he's got the right guy, just grab that Glock and put him down right there in the street. Send his family a bill for the bullet, too, if you really want to count the pennies.

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RE: The death penalty - 5/3/2009 3:27:37 PM

DomKen

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quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

I didn't check the date of the review I posted earlier. So can we agree on 36 as the number? My point was that the 130+ number seems to mix those that were exonerated, with those that got off on technicalities. It also appears that the percentage used by some is the inflated 130+ number in ratio to execution doen, not just cases tried. To me it inflates the number as well. I will admit it appears difficult to get some objective research as the groups doing it seem to be either pro death or anti death.

Also, I didn't check each of the cases you listed, I am taking it on face value. Were all of those exonerations? Were any of those pardons or failure to refile?

Actually as I cleary state the number of proven beyond any doubt innocents is far higher than 36. I just stopped going through the data at 1995.

As to those 36 all are innocent based on either the admission of a prosecutor or the ordered release of the convicted by an appelate court although some were also pardoned or found to be not guilty during a retrial. I left out most of the prosecutorial misconduct which accounts for the majoirty of overturned convictions since in those cases the prosecutors rarely acknowledge the innocence of the accused. Only two men were released from prison by direct action of a governor's pardon and those two were surviviors of police torture who no one actually thinks did the crimes in question. I excluded other pardoned and released people because the evidence of their innocence was not beyond all doubt. However it stands to reason that some of those cases were prosecutions of the truly innocent.

However the fact remains we have completed less than 1300 capital cases since 1973 and more than 10 percent of those cases resulted in a legally innocent person spending time on death row and close to 5% were prosecutions and convictions of people who were definitely innocent in the more conventional sense.

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RE: The death penalty - 5/3/2009 3:47:27 PM

calamitysandra

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
...
As long as there were eyewitness or overwhelming physical evidence to go along with the video then I would be for CP.

Butch

Eyewitnesses? Truly? Those are not really among the reliable evidence.

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RE: The death penalty - 5/3/2009 6:49:28 PM

samboct

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Butch-

The essential problem with "irrefutable" guilt is that science and the courts don't get along real well- and that's a gross understatement. I've had a cop tell me that the radar unit is "perfect- it never makes a mistake." with a straight face- I think he probably believed it.

Video can be faked or altered, eyewitnesses are notoriously unreliable, crime labs are run on a far lower standard than freshmen remedial chemistry.

However, were we to consider your comment about irrefutable evidence as a hypothetical- while acknowledging it doesn't exist- then yeah, I still have a problem with the death penalty. I agree that it's uncivilized, and it sends a message out to the citizenry- do as I say- not as I do. In terms of uncivilized- the countries that don't have the death penalty often have better food, potable water, and prettier women dressed in skimpier clothing. (OK, the UK may be an exception....)

Sam

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RE: The death penalty - 5/3/2009 7:09:40 PM

kdsub

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quote:

ORIGINAL: calamitysandra

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
...
As long as there were eyewitness or overwhelming physical evidence to go along with the video then I would be for CP.

Butch

Eyewitnesses? Truly? Those are not really among the reliable evidence.

You keep leaving out parts of my post... I said eyewitness along with video would be irrefutable. You can't use the argument that you can never under any circumstance be absolutely sure of a crime. If that were true than no crime of any kind could be prosecuted and there would be anarchy.

Butch

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RE: The death penalty - 5/3/2009 7:21:51 PM

kdsub

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Sam my answer to you would be the same as my answer to calamitysandra.

Butch

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RE: The death penalty - 5/3/2009 7:53:00 PM

OrionTheWolf

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Now I see where the issue is. I used the word exonerated, which means evidence which proved their innocence and you are using a number of everyone that had the sentence overturned, commuted or something similiar along with those exonerated.

Looks like there are many ways to skew the numbers, and arrive with different statistics. I left the death row area and have been looking at the LWOP area, and the numbers are pretty staggering there as well.

Now the questions is, with such an imperfect legal system how can we support someone to LWOP, which is very much like torture because of the culture they must live the rest of their lives in? Is it okay to lock someone away for the rest of their lives, when they might be innocent, which means years of misery until they die of natural causes?

Interesting thoughts coming from this topic, for me at least.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Actually as I cleary state the number of proven beyond any doubt innocents is far higher than 36. I just stopped going through the data at 1995.

As to those 36 all are innocent based on either the admission of a prosecutor or the ordered release of the convicted by an appelate court although some were also pardoned or found to be not guilty during a retrial. I left out most of the prosecutorial misconduct which accounts for the majoirty of overturned convictions since in those cases the prosecutors rarely acknowledge the innocence of the accused. Only two men were released from prison by direct action of a governor's pardon and those two were surviviors of police torture who no one actually thinks did the crimes in question. I excluded other pardoned and released people because the evidence of their innocence was not beyond all doubt. However it stands to reason that some of those cases were prosecutions of the truly innocent.

However the fact remains we have completed less than 1300 capital cases since 1973 and more than 10 percent of those cases resulted in a legally innocent person spending time on death row and close to 5% were prosecutions and convictions of people who were definitely innocent in the more conventional sense.

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RE: The death penalty - 5/3/2009 8:03:50 PM

slvemike4u

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

quote:

ORIGINAL: Raiikun
If a person is convicted, then sentenced to death, then immediately taken and fried...it'd cost a lot less than imprisoning them for life.

There's this annoying little thing called due process of law - and appeal makes for quite a large part of it. Are you arguing in favour of modifying the constitution and the Bill of Rights in order to carry out swifter executions?

Well as long as we don't touch the 2nd....yeah let's do whatever we can to fry as many as we can......

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