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Can a sub be too aggressive, too romantic? - 5/20/2009 11:43:17 AM

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A sort of off-shoot of the "subs taking initiative" thread, and a few others. So when a sub is interested (in a potential relationship, romantic) in a femdom, is there such a thing as too aggressive, or inappropriately aggressive? Ladies, are you ever "put off" or offended, or annoyed, if a man:

* Asks you out on a date (do you think YOU should be the one asking, and will ask when you feel it's time?)
* Initiates a first kiss, or asks for a first kiss (should he just wait and let you make the move? Would you be annoyed if he said, "I'd really love to kiss you, but I don't want to overstep my boundaries...")
* Holds your hand (in a movie theater, on a walk), vs. waiting for you to take his hand and hold it first?
* Sends flowers or a small token of his affection and romantic interest?

If a man behaves as a gentleman in the truest sense of the word in his courtship rituals, including being a bit aggressive, perhaps, do you find that to be an overstepping of "submissive role" and think the femdom should set the tone, leave the clues, or flat out initiate all appropriate relationship/courtship steps? Should she dictate, either verbally or through clear clues, "This is when the first kiss happens. This is when you can touch me. This is when you should start sending flowers and telling me about your feelings."

Akasha

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RE: Can a sub be too aggressive, too romantic? - 5/20/2009 11:54:05 AM

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This can be a bit tricky. I like things that flow well and timing is major. Someone who can read the flow of things and has good timing is seen differently than someone who cannot. I like a confident man and will sometimes overlook something as I see it more as confidence than trying to pull something or get ahead of things.

I will let someone know where I am and what I want. I let them know in my smiles, my response to them, to the amount of time I spend with them and then in telling them. It is a process for me and I hope for them too. If I like someone, they will know it and we will do that mating flirty type talk and play and at that point, I will address it. I don't want anyone feeling insecure.

I do see room for mixed signals or signals misread and so I communicate in some way, what my interest is. I cannot say I always make the first move because I am very in the moment. If we are walking and having fun and go to sit somewhere and a moment happens, by that time it is just flowing because we know we have something going on between us. I don't mind a kiss from someone I am enjoying and if he makes the first move it is all good. But that doesn't mean he will have to make the first move! lol

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RE: Can a sub be too aggressive, too romantic? - 5/20/2009 12:23:59 PM

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I do not mind traditional displays of affection and interest. That shows the energy is moving and gives me something to work with and develop into a more structured context.

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RE: Can a sub be too aggressive, too romantic? - 5/20/2009 12:24:00 PM

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This is one of the things that I'm kind of afraid of if I ever date a femdom (rather then introducing a vanilla woman to the concept, which is where my only relationship experience lies).

As a sub, we're told to treat Femdoms as real, normal women, so in that vein I'd have no problem asking one out or in the course of dating kissing or initiating contact, yet when I read stuff like this, I wonder if that's the correct MO.

I'm not obnoxiously aggresive when it comes to dating or meeting women, but if I see someone I like, i'll definitely go after them; by no means am I passive. Life's too short to wait for something to happen.

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RE: Can a sub be too aggressive, too romantic? - 5/20/2009 12:26:07 PM

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Yes.

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RE: Can a sub be too aggressive, too romantic? - 5/20/2009 12:26:44 PM

CallaFirestormBW

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AAkasha

A sort of off-shoot of the "subs taking initiative" thread, and a few others. So when a sub is interested (in a potential relationship, romantic) in a femdom, is there such a thing as too aggressive, or inappropriately aggressive? Ladies, are you ever "put off" or offended, or annoyed, if a man:

* Asks you out on a date (do you think YOU should be the one asking, and will ask when you feel it's time?)
* Initiates a first kiss, or asks for a first kiss (should he just wait and let you make the move? Would you be annoyed if he said, "I'd really love to kiss you, but I don't want to overstep my boundaries...")
* Holds your hand (in a movie theater, on a walk), vs. waiting for you to take his hand and hold it first?
* Sends flowers or a small token of his affection and romantic interest?

If a man behaves as a gentleman in the truest sense of the word in his courtship rituals, including being a bit aggressive, perhaps, do you find that to be an overstepping of "submissive role" and think the femdom should set the tone, leave the clues, or flat out initiate all appropriate relationship/courtship steps? Should she dictate, either verbally or through clear clues, "This is when the first kiss happens. This is when you can touch me. This is when you should start sending flowers and telling me about your feelings."

Akasha

There are some things that I, personally, find intrusive and which would turn me off on someone who was seeking a submissive interaction with me. I wouldn't be offended if xhe approached me or asked me out, and I would find it charming if xhe said something along the lines of "I would like to [insert ladylike/gentlemanly physical contact like kissing, hand-holding, etc. here], but I do not wish to overstep my bounds."

Xhe's welcome to bring wine or flowers, though it would probably be preferable if xhe knew enough about me to know which wines I like and which flowers... and xhe'd best know enough about me to know that I don't eat grains or commercial candies except when it has been well planned, so gifts like that would be unappreciated. In the same way, gifts of jewelry would not go over well, as it would be yet one more thing I'd have to find a place for -- and xhe'd likely be peeved on some level because people who give jewelry usually do so on the premise that it will be worn and shown off... and aside from body-mod piercings, I just don't wear jewelry. All of these, though, are little things that might rub me the wrong way a bit, but are probably going to squeak through the fence. If it really bothered me, I'd say something, and if xhe ignored it after a couple of warnings, I'd probably end up saying farewell long-term, since that would mean, to me, that we just weren't compatible on how to behave in this situation.

On the other hand, I would likely be downright -rude- if xhe presumed to attempt to kiss me without actually -asking- first. Likewise if xhe took my hand, attempted to rub my shoulders/back, patted my leg or posterior, or put hir arm around me without me actually directly -inviting- that contact. I do NOT like to be touched without an express invitation. A "surprise" foot rub or neck rub is likely to be a surprise to the giver... as I am likely to have a hissy-fit.

In all honesty, most of the things that would be problematic if coming from a person who declared a desire for a Keeper/servant dynamic are things that bug me even if another dominant individual does them to me. The difference, I think, is that when one claims a desire to be deferent to me, I have a particular expectation that xhe will be overtly and covertly sensitive to making sure that xhe does not do something that will annoy me or cause me distress or tension... and if xhe is consistently acting in a way that puts hir desires to do such-and-such above my preferences, I will find hir most unsuitable as a subordinate. Usually, a simple "please don't do that" is sufficient, and that would save the situation and any ensuing drama. Only if the person is an utter boor and completely unresponsive would it be a total write-off... even for someone who accidentally initiated physical contact without my ok...though I'd likely get pretty loud about being touched without permission.

Dame Calla

< Message edited by CallaFirestormBW -- 5/20/2009 12:58:32 PM >

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RE: Can a sub be too aggressive, too romantic? - 5/20/2009 12:30:01 PM

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My intial response is yes, but not in the terms of any of the things you listed. I dont really see any of those as "aggressive". Now, were they to pull me into a kiss, then yeah, that would be a problem. Or, say, uninvitedly put their arm around my shoulders or waist and limiting my ability to move around. But moving in for a first kiss is not a bad thing, and there are usually cues when that is apropriate that you as a woman are sending out.

DV

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RE: Can a sub be too aggressive, too romantic? - 5/20/2009 12:31:47 PM

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I would like to add... if I am in a position where a mistake could be made and someone did come on a little too strong... I am an adult and dominant enough to be able to handle that and doing so without freaking out on the guy. I would simply explain things and hopefully without ripping the poor guy apart. He would most likely do any ripping apart if there was such.

Now if he backs me in a corner and pushed himself against me and holds me there... ummm he is surely going to see one red head bitch from a position on the floor.

I don't want men afraid because they are submissive and I am dominant. Respect goes a long way and anything done respectfully will be seen as respectfully done, even if it is not something I would want. That is just my time to let it be known what is right or wrong to do with me.

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RE: Can a sub be too aggressive, too romantic? - 5/20/2009 12:35:10 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SlaveBlutarsky

quote:

Femdoms as real, normal women
,

hmmmmmmmm I AM NOT
unreal and abnormal???

GQ

< Message edited by GYPZYQUEEN -- 5/20/2009 12:41:15 PM >

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RE: Can a sub be too aggressive, too romantic? - 5/20/2009 12:44:53 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lockit

I would like to add... if I am in a position where a mistake could be made and someone did come on a little too strong... I am an adult and dominant enough to be able to handle that and doing so without freaking out on the guy. I would simply explain things and hopefully without ripping the poor guy apart. He would most likely do any ripping apart if there was such.

Now if he backs me in a corner and pushed himself against me and holds me there... ummm he is surely going to see one red head bitch from a position on the floor.

I don't want men afraid because they are submissive and I am dominant. Respect goes a long way and anything done respectfully will be seen as respectfully done, even if it is not something I would want. That is just my time to let it be known what is right or wrong to do with me.

Important observations. I think it's safe to say, in most cases, a submissive man takes MORE risks by being "too cautious" and waiting for a femdom to make all the first moves, than he is at being *possibly* too ambitious, so long as he is not rude. Sometimes I look at this and think - geez, it's not rocket science - but then, I realize, in a world of mixed signals, subs just don't know how they are supposed to act.

For me, especially when I was single, I was pretty comfortable just taking control when/how I wanted it. In normal courting situations, I'd allow/welcome/encourage a certain level of assertiveness from a date, but ultimately I'd end up in control. This would be with vanilla or submissive guys or anything in between. I'd never been with a guy I found "way too aggressive," but I'd also not be *attracted* to men who behaved that way and we'd never end up on a date, anyway. If that makes sense. You can usually tell by a man's body language at the way he talks to a woman if he's going to be uber aggressive romantically and physically, and that's just not my style of guy.

I can recall a couple of times, maybe in college, where a first-date type guy perhaps was a little too ambitious (but still a gentleman) "making the moves," or setting a pace I felt inappropriate, and I'd tell him to stop, slow down, or simply "No. I'll tell you when it's ok to do that," and then depending on how it worked out, he may or may not get another date. But I just wasn't attracted to men who were controlling, too aggressive or thought they could set the pace. That didn't mean I didn't date men who were pretty assertive. Generally though, I set the tone as being the aggressor in most of my romantic relationships, casual ones included.

But if a man just sat there and expected me to initiate everything and was totally and 100% passive, I'd lose interest - unless he was the super mysterious, quietly confident, very aloof but sexy onion I wantd to peel. How does a sub man find the "in between"? Unfortunately, I think the reality may be this: While vanilla men have to learn to read a woman's body language and communication cues and are often frustrated and annoyed at this challenge, it may be that submissive men have to do this - EVEN MORE perceptively. Sorry guys!!

The good news is, as you will see in this thread, most femdoms have no problem correcting behavior they find inappropriate if they feel the guy is a catch. I think as long as you behave within the realm of courtesy and as a gentleman, you are probably safe to be as politely aggressive as possible, as long as you take feedback and respond. When she says slow down, do it. When she says stop, do it. When she says stop calling me, or don't email me so often, or "I will let you know if I am interested," then listen.

Akasha

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RE: Can a sub be too aggressive, too romantic? - 5/20/2009 3:43:50 PM

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Catch 22 time for me. As a submissive I wonder if its okay to initiate, or would that be seen as pushy. Reading the signs would work, as a woman who wants a kiss, wants a kiss, Domme or vanilla. Maybe there is a slight problem in that a dominant woman may not want you to make the first move, but her natural body language sends a different signal. IE. If she really likes me and wants a kiss, does she consciously send the signal, or is it a subconscious thing.

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RE: Can a sub be too aggressive, too romantic? - 5/20/2009 3:52:39 PM

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Everything we do is well thought out and planned! hehe

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RE: Can a sub be too aggressive, too romantic? - 5/20/2009 8:55:13 PM

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I get around it by being embarassingly, amazingly blunt. It shocks guys sometimes, but apparently they find it interesting to be told quite calmly that, for example, we're waiting to do a scene until my period is past because I have every intention of having sexual contact with him when we do scene.

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RE: Can a sub be too aggressive, too romantic? - 5/21/2009 2:46:54 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lockit

This can be a bit tricky. I like things that flow well and timing is major. Someone who can read the flow of things and has good timing is seen differently than someone who cannot. I like a confident man and will sometimes overlook something as I see it more as confidence than trying to pull something or get ahead of things.

I will let someone know where I am and what I want. I let them know in my smiles, my response to them, to the amount of time I spend with them and then in telling them. It is a process for me and I hope for them too. If I like someone, they will know it and we will do that mating flirty type talk and play and at that point, I will address it. I don't want anyone feeling insecure.

I do see room for mixed signals or signals misread and so I communicate in some way, what my interest is. I cannot say I always make the first move because I am very in the moment. If we are walking and having fun and go to sit somewhere and a moment happens, by that time it is just flowing because we know we have something going on between us. I don't mind a kiss from someone I am enjoying and if he makes the first move it is all good. But that doesn't mean he will have to make the first move! lol

That was sort of sweet, Lockit. (Though I'm not sure that dominants are allowed to be 'sort of sweet'. So watch it.

)

I think I do things the same way. I usually know when it's the right time to kiss because I start feeling pleasantly uncomfortable with the way she's acting. (If memory serves, that is.)

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RE: Can a sub be too aggressive, too romantic? - 5/21/2009 4:01:10 AM

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being born in 1952 doesn't do me any favors.in high school i used to send flowers after a date and of course the girls thought at that point i wanted to get married.so i have had to tweak my behavior and as Lockit said..know when the timing is right to be somewhat agressive..personally i never thought sending flowers was agressive..just a nice thing to do.Times have changed however.so i ask first but not all the time either...that shows a lack of confidence.

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RE: Can a sub be too aggressive, too romantic? - 5/21/2009 4:45:22 AM

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That kind of stuff is all very subjective. My technique has always been relatively traditional as far as making a first move when I had to. But I do love it when a woman is so dominant, that it is not necessary. I have been with some dommes who took the reins almost immediately. That is the best.

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RE: Can a sub be too aggressive, too romantic? - 5/21/2009 5:47:17 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AAkasha

A sort of off-shoot of the "subs taking initiative" thread, and a few others. So when a sub is interested (in a potential relationship, romantic) in a femdom, is there such a thing as too aggressive, or inappropriately aggressive? Ladies, are you ever "put off" or offended, or annoyed, if a man:

* Asks you out on a date (do you think YOU should be the one asking, and will ask when you feel it's time?)
* Initiates a first kiss, or asks for a first kiss (should he just wait and let you make the move? Would you be annoyed if he said, "I'd really love to kiss you, but I don't want to overstep my boundaries...")
* Holds your hand (in a movie theater, on a walk), vs. waiting for you to take his hand and hold it first?
* Sends flowers or a small token of his affection and romantic interest?

If a man behaves as a gentleman in the truest sense of the word in his courtship rituals, including being a bit aggressive, perhaps, do you find that to be an overstepping of "submissive role" and think the femdom should set the tone, leave the clues, or flat out initiate all appropriate relationship/courtship steps? Should she dictate, either verbally or through clear clues, "This is when the first kiss happens. This is when you can touch me. This is when you should start sending flowers and telling me about your feelings."

Akasha

I would like to address the OP. This question reminds me of the Chase or be Chased thread that was on General bdsm Discussion. As I said there, I've done both, however, a man who shows initative and pursues me in a polite manner draws more of my interest than a man who sits back and is either afraid to or too lazy to take the opportunity to show me that he is willing to make an effort for what he wants. Chivalry, I like to think, isn't dead.

I feel aggression is a different thing then showing initative. Aggression in a man is a turn off for me. A man who is shows unprovoked force or attempts to dominate/master has the same effect as nails on a chalkboard for me. These actions, in my opinion, say he's thinking of pleasing himself first and leads me to question where I would fall in the equation.

-Asking me on a date shows initative.
-Saying "I'd really love to kiss you, but I don't want to overstep my boundaries..." shows his interest and his willingness to express his desires but also an over-riding wish to please.
-Holding my hand while walking is sweet...grabbing it is rude.
-Sending flowers is something I wish more men would remember to do. This goes back to the complaint about Dommes wanting a "generous" man. Heck yes, I want a generous man....generous with his time/spirit and desire to please. That certainly doesn't require expensive gifts...in fact, I wouldn't want a fancy gift from a man I barely know. A single rose says more than a heap of expensive stuff.

I think the most important thing to do is to talk. I need to express myself just as much as I expect him to. I find that as I move further from a bottom role and express more of my dominant qualities, my expectations of a man have become more. This is one of those areas where I find myself requiring more, meaning I may set the tone but that doesn't mean the man's part is to just sit back and "enjoy the ride"...far from it.

This is just my opinion, though, and I'm starting to realize my path is taking a slightly different turn than I thought it would. Ever evolving, you might say.

< Message edited by CarrieO -- 5/21/2009 5:49:16 AM >

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RE: Can a sub be too aggressive, too romantic? - 5/21/2009 7:20:33 AM

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I would advise a man, just be yourself. If we have chemistry, and I see sincere, strong feelings toward me, I hope he'll express himself in the way that is within his nature. If we don't have chemistry and strong feelings, what can you do?

I do favour men who are bold enough to express themselves, though.

I'll add that there's a world of difference between being eager and impatient, in courtship.

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RE: Can a sub be too aggressive, too romantic? - 5/21/2009 11:35:56 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

That was sort of sweet, Lockit. (Though I'm not sure that dominants are allowed to be 'sort of sweet'. So watch it. )

I think I do things the same way. I usually know when it's the right time to kiss because I start feeling pleasantly uncomfortable with the way she's acting. (If memory serves, that is.)

I am okay with my sweet and sour sucker likeness! Both sweet and sour are great on their own... but blended... mmmmmmmmmmmmmm! hehe Just because I can be sweet doesn't take away from my sour!

(not that dominance is sour... just playing here! lol)

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RE: Can a sub be too aggressive, too romantic? - 5/21/2009 11:52:10 AM

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Sweet, sour and saucy.

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