RE: Non-destructive testing, exploration, and experimentation

Collarspace Discussion Forums

Home Login Search

RE: Non-destructive testing, exploration, and experimentation

View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest

All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> General BDSM Discussion >> RE: Non-destructive testing, exploration, and experimentation

Page: << < prev 1 [2] 3 next > >>

Login

Message

<< Older Topic Newer Topic >>

RE: Non-destructive testing, exploration, and experimen... - 5/21/2009 8:54:17 AM

NihilusZero

Posts: 4036
Joined: 9/10/2008
From: Nashville, TN
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Fitznicely

I won't be tested.

Not to turn the entire thread into a semantic discussion, but the situation you described immediately before these words seems more to me to be "manipulation" rather than "testing".

_____________________________

"I know it's all a game
I know they're all insane
I know it's all in vain
I know that I'm to blame."
~Siouxsie & the Banshees

NihilusZero.com

CM Sex God du Jour
CM Hall Monitor

(in reply to Fitznicely)

Post #: 21

RE: Non-destructive testing, exploration, and experimen... - 5/21/2009 8:55:42 AM

NihilusZero

Posts: 4036
Joined: 9/10/2008
From: Nashville, TN
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: DemonKia

What's that thing you do, Nihilus? The point thing?

100 points for this posting, you did such a better job of laying this out as compared to my clumsy bumblings about on this in the other thread -- thank you . . .. . .

_____________________________

"I know it's all a game
I know they're all insane
I know it's all in vain
I know that I'm to blame."
~Siouxsie & the Banshees

NihilusZero.com

CM Sex God du Jour
CM Hall Monitor

(in reply to DemonKia)

Post #: 22

RE: Non-destructive testing, exploration, and experimen... - 5/21/2009 9:04:06 AM

NihilusZero

Posts: 4036
Joined: 9/10/2008
From: Nashville, TN
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: SlyStone

The problem with testing is that it is very simple to set someone up for failure and or success, depending on our initial impression.

See, this doesn't make sense to me. When you're meeting someone, there is no guarantee or contract stipulation that requires that you will get anything out of the interaction. The whole point is that you're being gauged on parameters another person wants. You will fail or succeed. This is how human mating happens. Dating is being set up for "success or failure" by definition!

_____________________________

"I know it's all a game
I know they're all insane
I know it's all in vain
I know that I'm to blame."
~Siouxsie & the Banshees

NihilusZero.com

CM Sex God du Jour
CM Hall Monitor

(in reply to SlyStone)

Post #: 23

RE: Non-destructive testing, exploration, and experimen... - 5/21/2009 9:47:30 AM

agirl

Posts: 4530
Joined: 6/14/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Andalusite

Agirl, most of this stuff is interaction/getting to know someone, but I can't just walk in as friends or with no expectations, and switch to romantic mode without a very clear "we're dating now" kind of conversation and becoming a bit sexual. If someone's in "friends mode," they just don't show up on my radar that way. I have dated guys after becoming friends through our vanilla interests. However, they had to actually ask me out and we had to mess around a bit before I had any idea of whether or not we could have any chemistry, and were compatible romantically, even if I'd known them for a year or something at that point.

This is probably why my approach differs. All of my relationships have come about through friendship and NO expectations whatsoever. Any *feelings* have grown over time, as friends. I have ONE way of getting to know people and it's the same way for anyone that ends up as a friend or a *partner* in my life.

Like leadership, I am a very slow burner......It takes me a very long time; years, not weeks or months. I've never *looked* for partners of any sort and just take things as they come. I let all relationships unfold naturally but just being *in* them.

agirl

< Message edited by agirl -- 5/21/2009 9:50:20 AM >

(in reply to Andalusite)

Post #: 24

RE: Non-destructive testing, exploration, and experimen... - 5/21/2009 10:00:43 AM

Fitznicely

Posts: 1597
Joined: 10/18/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero

quote:

ORIGINAL: Fitznicely

I won't be tested.

Not to turn the entire thread into a semantic discussion, but the situation you described immediately before these words seems more to me to be "manipulation" rather than "testing".

That certainly is a semantic issue, isn't it?

Thinking on it since I posted last, I think what I'm offended by is overt, conscious testing/manipulation. As I said, don't come to me with an agenda

_____________________________

I tell you this: No eternal reward will forgive us now for wasting the dawn
Proud Owner of Darkmoonkat. Such a good girl!

(in reply to NihilusZero)

Post #: 25

RE: Non-destructive testing, exploration, and experimen... - 5/21/2009 10:24:24 AM

Jeptha

Posts: 780
Joined: 9/18/2008
From: Portland, Oregon
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero

quote:

ORIGINAL: SlyStone

The problem with testing is that it is very simple to set someone up for failure and or success, depending on our initial impression.

See, this doesn't make sense to me. When you're meeting someone, there is no guarantee or contract stipulation that requires that you will get anything out of the interaction. The whole point is that you're being gauged on parameters another person wants. You will fail or succeed. This is how human mating happens. Dating is being set up for "success or failure" by definition!

Right - But I think what is being debated is whether there are certain "tells", clues or a shorthand of sorts, that can represent compatibility (or incompatibility) in a symbolic way.

So that, say, I don't have to get to know someone, because I can detect something meaningful about them by whether they lift their pinky when they sip their tea, to give a facetious example.

< Message edited by Jeptha -- 5/21/2009 10:25:27 AM >

_____________________________

...YOU KNOW HOW I LIKE MY PORK CHOPS!
- - - - - - -
"....(somewhere) therein lies the truthiness..."
~*~*~*~*
http://www.myspace.com/crocusofiron

(in reply to NihilusZero)

Post #: 26

RE: Non-destructive testing, exploration, and experimen... - 5/21/2009 3:22:08 PM

DesFIP

Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: SlyStone

Far better I think to say upfront that you have certain issues that are important to you and would like to have an honest discussion to see if there is common ground.

Let people take the lead, they will tell you all you need to know without need for manipulation.

Unless of course they lie to themselves and/or others.
Lots of people TELL, some of want to be shown.

In a nonmanipulative form of testing; when we first got together I asked why all the time. I needed to know that he thought things through and had considered the down sides I could see. After a while I would ask why, and once he started a full explanation I didn't need it, I just needed to know he had it. Then I started asking if he had taken into account x, y or z. If he said yes, which was almost always, that was fine, I needed to know he really had thought it through. These days I almost never need to ask any of that because he has proven his ability to think things through.

_____________________________

Slave to laundry

Cynical and proud of it!

(in reply to SlyStone)

Post #: 27

RE: Non-destructive testing, exploration, and experimen... - 5/21/2009 4:19:56 PM

SlyStone

Posts: 398
Joined: 12/23/2006
From: Chicago
Status: offline

quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: SlyStone

The problem with testing is that it is very simple to set someone up for failure and or success, depending on our initial impression.

See, this doesn't make sense to me. When you're meeting someone, there is no guarantee or contract stipulation that requires that you will get anything out of the interaction. The whole point is that you're being gauged on parameters another person wants. You will fail or succeed. This is how human mating happens. Dating is being set up for "success or failure" by definition!

I don't know about human mating, seems to me that only requires lust and need and maybe a few shots of tequila to overcome any initial nervousness :)

But human companionship happens when people are able to see outside of their own perspective and engage each other. I think that's the problem with the audition analogy that is always being used to describe a date, because there is only one person who wins an audition. One person seeks to impress and the other holds the power.

This is not true of a date because each person holds equal power to chose or reject. This is true even in the initial stages of a D/s relationship. No one has power unless you relinquish it to them, but if you go into the initial meeting thinking it is an audition you immediately give up power to the other person. You get caught up in wanting to be accepted rather than listening.

I think when dating people form an extremely fast opinion based on looks and smell and how people talk and how they move. So right away they know if there is an attraction or not. If there is a test it is just that, does this person excite me, or interests me, are they someone I want to get to know. And yes, here each person is doing their own evaluation.

But the next step is to find out if there is compatibility and a commonality of values etc and I think that is what we are talking about here, and that that takes time and it takes understanding and it takes the ability to compromise and learn from each other. We reveal ourselves over time and we grow and we change. That is what it is to be human. To limit that to some kind(s) of standardized litmus tests seems to me to be shortchanging both the tester and the testee.

_____________________________

Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage.

Anais Nin

(in reply to NihilusZero)

Post #: 28

RE: Non-destructive testing, exploration, and experimen... - 5/21/2009 6:43:44 PM

stella41b

Posts: 4258
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: SW London (UK)
Status: offline

In any sort of relationship time alone is the toughest test and the most reliable.

_____________________________

CM's Resident Lyricist
also Facebook
http://stella.baker.tripod.com/
50NZpoints
Q2
Simply Q

(in reply to SlyStone)

Post #: 29

RE: Non-destructive testing, exploration, and experimen... - 5/21/2009 7:23:39 PM

Andalusite

Posts: 2492
Joined: 1/25/2009
Status: offline

Jeptha, I don't have any of those that are symbolic, but actual "are we compatible" and "how do we react to each other." I still don't understand how there are any questions that I can ask which can adequately tell me whether or not he'll get along with my friends. I need to trust someone not just theoretically with my mind, but also in my guts, in my bones. How can either of us know if he can read my body language until he actually tries to, even if he's usually quite apt at it with other women? How can I inquire in abstract about his sense of humor without him telling a single joke? How can I know if he'll turn me on if he doesn't touch me? How can I know if I can react to him submissively until he expresses his dominance, just by asking him questions? What are the right questions to ask to find out if he can surrender to me, and if I can dominate him? I just don't understand!

SlyStone, it usually takes me about 3 times meeting and interacting with someone to develop chemistry with him. There are a few sparks right from the start, once we touch each other that way, but not just from talking or looking at him, but it usually starts out fairly low-level and increases once we're around each other more. Sometimes it's the other way around, too, and I have a lot of initial chemistry, but it drops off quickly once my hormone levels shift a bit. I don't have a lot of pass/fail tests, or standardised litmus tests, but I *do* need to explore with someone new. I *do* need to see how I react to them, and how they react to me.

Leadership, I don't think I'm covert about it at all, and I'm not trying to play mind games. I just need to get to know someone, and that involves a lot more than an interrogation scene.

Fitznicely, the only agenda I have is to find out whether or not we're compatible. If we aren't, we're both better off with other people, right?

agirl, I've dated guys I've known for a year or more, but we were dating other people, or otherwise didn't espress an interest in each other until we started dating. Nothing wrong with what you describe, but it just doesn't work that way for me! Plus, I know a few guys who do genuinely like and care about me, but who aren't interested in a relationship, or don't want one with me in particular. I definitely don't want to be a friends-with-benefits, and I'm not particularly looking for a casual playpartner, though I've done that a bit in the past. I want a boyfriend who I can go on dates with, play with, cuddle with, have sex with, spend time with each other's friends, and all that. I can't see any point in fucking some guy who isn't any more interested in being my boyfriend than my *gay* friends are!

< Message edited by Andalusite -- 5/21/2009 7:35:44 PM >

(in reply to Jeptha)

Post #: 30

RE: Non-destructive testing, exploration, and experimen... - 5/21/2009 11:02:55 PM

RedMagic1

Posts: 6470
Joined: 5/10/2007
Status: offline

I've mentioned in a couple threads that I'm hitting on dominant women right now. It's quite interesting. I suggested something to a woman today, and she said no way, but how about this? I said hmmmm, that sounds possible.

How are you going to know how well you relate to the other person unless you test the waters? My limits and interests depend on who I'm with.

_____________________________

Not with envy, not with a twisted heart, shall you feel superior, or go about boasting. Rather in goodness by action make true your song and your word. Thus you shall be highly regarded, and able to live in peace with all others.
- 15th century Aztec

(in reply to Andalusite)

Post #: 31

RE: Non-destructive testing, exploration, and experimen... - 5/21/2009 11:29:27 PM

AlexandraLynch

Posts: 778
Joined: 3/24/2008
Status: offline

I think there are some large things that you can straight-up ask about. I always ask if people have issues with cats as one of the very first things out of the gate in "sorting" applicants. Because if they have a severe cat allergy, and I have three cats, well, we might as well just not bother even talking about them serving me in my home. Likewise, I ask about religious issues very early on. While I don't require that people who serve me be pagan as well, I do require that they respect the manifestations of it in my life. I do not want to have a submissive who feels that my altar and the religious tattoos I have are symbols of the devil....that's not fair to him or to me. I also don't think that a politically conservative person would be comfortable with my husband and I....we refer to visiting the bathroom as "contributing material to Rush's next program". The particularly heinous and odiferous visits clearly are contributions for Michael Savage, however. (grin)

Is that testing? Sure, in a way. But if you apply for a job, they ask "Can you program in this language?" "Can you lift 50 pounds?" and I don't think that screening like this hurts anyone.

I don't set up situations deliberately to make people fail. People are human, and will fail often enough without my arranging it. And I have a strong feeling that you get what you give.

_____________________________

I use fastreply. Don't take offence where none is meant.

Just because I'm not a bitch doesn't mean I'm not perfectly capable of making sure you'll be very sorry if you disobey.

(in reply to RedMagic1)

Post #: 32

RE: Non-destructive testing, exploration, and experimen... - 5/22/2009 1:41:26 AM

agirl

Posts: 4530
Joined: 6/14/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Andalusite

agirl, I've dated guys I've known for a year or more, but we were dating other people, or otherwise didn't espress an interest in each other until we started dating. Nothing wrong with what you describe, but it just doesn't work that way for me! Plus, I know a few guys who do genuinely like and care about me, but who aren't interested in a relationship, or don't want one with me in particular. I definitely don't want to be a friends-with-benefits, and I'm not particularly looking for a casual playpartner, though I've done that a bit in the past. I want a boyfriend who I can go on dates with, play with, cuddle with, have sex with, spend time with each other's friends, and all that. I can't see any point in fucking some guy who isn't any more interested in being my boyfriend than my *gay* friends are!

There's nothing wrong with the way you do things either. I don't really *do* the searching thing...I haven't ever had to and haven't ever wanted to.

It's NICE to have all the things you mentioned in a boyfriend but for some reason I've never *looked* for it, although I'm open to it if it occurs. I've also never cared whether someone I'm with *gets along* with my friends. If I like them, I like them, and whether my friends like them or not doesn't matter a great deal.

agirl

(in reply to Andalusite)

Post #: 33

RE: Non-destructive testing, exploration, and experimen... - 5/22/2009 1:44:03 AM

agirl

Posts: 4530
Joined: 6/14/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: stella41b

In any sort of relationship time alone is the toughest test and the most reliable.

That's certainly my experience.

agirl

(in reply to stella41b)

Post #: 34

RE: Non-destructive testing, exploration, and experimen... - 5/22/2009 6:27:36 AM

SimplyMichael

Posts: 7229
Joined: 1/7/2007
Status: offline

Perhaps testing is a lot like pornography vs. art. I can't define it but I know it when I see it.

It was pointed out that I test people and I guess on some level I do but it certainly isn't something I plan for in advance. Do I watch someone, do I note things they do? Of course. Are there things I might notice early on that would cause me to lose interest? Of course! However, I don't discover those things through trickery or manipulation.

It is only with time that one learns who someone else really is. When you find out later they acted with integrity when they didn't have to, or when you see them do little things that charm your socks off.

Chemistry for me is rare so I don't have to test for it, it either explodes into flames or it isn't there for me. After a very long drought, there are actually two rather interesting women in my life, both of whom I share that sort of chemistry with. I haven't tested either one but have I noted things? Of course. I need lots of contact and one has been really busy but she made the time to send a quick goodnight note to me after I told her contact was important, meant a lot to me. I didn't keep that need secret to see if she would "do it right" but instead after I realized she wasn't doing what I needed, I asked for it and only then noted how she dealt with it. I have become a bit dark and twisted in my old age, or perhaps I have been pulled a bit into the dark side, regardless, there are sort of two dark sides, one likes bruises and centers around pain and the other centers around dark acts, I am on the dark acts spectrum. Did I somehow trick her to see what she liked, trying to make sure she didn't somehow "just do it for me" which would wear off? Hell no, we explored it was clearly hot for all of us.

I don't like testing, am I perfect and bulletproof? Not a chance, so it may slip in somewhere but I do my best not to do it. I much prefer holding hands and exploring life together WITH someone, not sitting alone in some emotional darkness testing someone.

(in reply to agirl)

Post #: 35

RE: Non-destructive testing, exploration, and experimen... - 5/22/2009 6:45:35 AM

RedMagic1

Posts: 6470
Joined: 5/10/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael
I much prefer holding hands and exploring life together WITH someone, not sitting alone in some emotional darkness testing someone.

Yeah. I'd rather make mistakes in the company of friends than be "perfect" all by myself.

_____________________________

Not with envy, not with a twisted heart, shall you feel superior, or go about boasting. Rather in goodness by action make true your song and your word. Thus you shall be highly regarded, and able to live in peace with all others.
- 15th century Aztec

(in reply to SimplyMichael)

Post #: 36

RE: Non-destructive testing, exploration, and experimen... - 5/22/2009 7:10:17 AM

leadership527

Posts: 5026
Joined: 6/2/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: RedMagic1

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael
I much prefer holding hands and exploring life together WITH someone, not sitting alone in some emotional darkness testing someone.

Yeah. I'd rather make mistakes in the company of friends than be "perfect" all by myself.

Is this where I get up on my high horse about my right to enjoy emotional darkness and just because you can't envision a good sound emotional darkness dynamic doesn't mean it's not possible? *laughs* Sorry, I'm just in that kind of mood this morning.

And Red... as one of those perfect people, I really don't like the perfect-bashing tone in your post. What are you... like the pefection fascist?

*laughs* OK, I'll try to settle down now.

_____________________________

~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

(in reply to RedMagic1)

Post #: 37

RE: Non-destructive testing, exploration, and experimen... - 5/22/2009 8:00:58 AM

SimplyMichael

Posts: 7229
Joined: 1/7/2007
Status: offline

Jeff, I am going to come over for coffee this morning...

(in reply to leadership527)

Post #: 38

RE: Non-destructive testing, exploration, and experimen... - 5/22/2009 9:49:15 AM

NihilusZero

Posts: 4036
Joined: 9/10/2008
From: Nashville, TN
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

Perhaps testing is a lot like pornography vs. art. I can't define it but I know it when I see it.

Maybe I agree with you here...though not because I think that comparative phrase has any merit at all, though.

The folks who normally use that phrase to dissociate porn from art use it just to be able to make up, willy nilly, whatever label they'd want whenever they want. Folks you normally like painting one thing as another based on their own ethical compass.

(Fortunately, there are folks like Aeric Meredith Goujon and Gary Breckheimer around to blur the lines for those who play the 'when i feel like it' game.)

And...such is also the case with this "testing"...maligned in this thread based on negative connotations people seem to keep ascribing to it.

Steel has an interesting thread up about the interpretation of words ('Realist' thread) and this topic seems to teeter on as similar line: the presumption that the occurrence of something in reality must inevitably mean its malignant deliberate active use.

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

It was pointed out that I test people and I guess on some level I do but it certainly isn't something I plan for in advance.

This appears to reinforce one of my points: you do it...you just don't realize it or don't think about it prior to it happening. So the fact that it heappens isn't the problem...it's when people mean for it to happen?

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

Do I watch someone, do I note things they do? Of course. Are there things I might notice early on that would cause me to lose interest? Of course! However, I don't discover those things through trickery or manipulation.

Non sequitur. If we were discussing "trickery and manipulation", I think those words may have been in the title of the thread. This 'all intentional testing = trickery' is way too excessively broad a brush for this issue.

No one here, that I can see, likes being tricked and/or manipulated or being the one doing it.

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

It is only with time that one learns who someone else really is. When you find out later they acted with integrity when they didn't have to, or when you see them do little things that charm your socks off.

Except that while many people may have no problem with investing time just to see if someone is compatible, plenty of other people may just as well like to figure out things a little faster.

And, when they "do little things that charm your socks off", they have passed your test. So you waited for a passive and untouched scenario in which you would find out something about someone happened instead of building a situation in which you would find out the very same thing? Is that the whole argument? That there is a righteous solace in letting things happen all on their own and falling into your lap instead of having an active hand in the mix?

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

I need lots of contact and one has been really busy but she made the time to send a quick goodnight note to me after I told her contact was important, meant a lot to me. I didn't keep that need secret to see if she would "do it right" but instead after I realized she wasn't doing what I needed, I asked for it and only then noted how she dealt with it.

Another example of how perception can make the entire difference in a situation. Judging by your words, you would say that trying to build a test to see if she did make a contact effort (or even just openly admitting your waiting for one is a pre-known test) is manipulation.

By another completely similar perception we can say that, in this example, you forfeited 'manipulating' the scenario to see what her result would be by, instead, manipulating her by telling her to do something she wasn't already doing on her own. And then you even admit that it was, essentially, a test of her obedience (which she passed by sending you a note).

I keep coming back to this feeling of: "if I don't treat X like what it is and/or don't admit to it, then I'm not responsible for the presumed negative aspects of what it seems to be even if I do them".

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

Did I somehow trick her to see what she liked, trying to make sure she didn't somehow "just do it for me" which would wear off?

That's what it seems like. From what you've recounted, actually, she did do it "just for you" (since you admited she wasn't doing it before of her own accord).

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

Hell no, we explored it was clearly hot for all of us.

So...now you're saying that the means isn't important anymore so long as the result (it being hot for all involved) is positive?

Why are we even arguing, then if as long as any occurence of testing ends up being hot for everyone, all is hunky dory?

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

I don't like testing, am I perfect and bulletproof? Not a chance, so it may slip in somewhere but I do my best not to do it. I much prefer holding hands and exploring life together WITH someone, not sitting alone in some emotional darkness testing someone.

False dichotomy.

< Message edited by NihilusZero -- 5/22/2009 9:55:11 AM >

_____________________________

"I know it's all a game
I know they're all insane
I know it's all in vain
I know that I'm to blame."
~Siouxsie & the Banshees

NihilusZero.com

CM Sex God du Jour
CM Hall Monitor

(in reply to SimplyMichael)

Post #: 39

RE: Non-destructive testing, exploration, and experimen... - 5/22/2009 9:50:55 AM

NihilusZero

Posts: 4036
Joined: 9/10/2008
From: Nashville, TN
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: RedMagic1

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael
I much prefer holding hands and exploring life together WITH someone, not sitting alone in some emotional darkness testing someone.

Yeah. I'd rather make mistakes in the company of friends than be "perfect" all by myself.

Another false dichotomy.

I'd rather be a millionaire than be a porcupine.

*checks skin*

Hmm...no quills. Hey! *runs off to check bank account.....*

....oh.

Nevermind.

_____________________________

"I know it's all a game
I know they're all insane
I know it's all in vain
I know that I'm to blame."
~Siouxsie & the Banshees

NihilusZero.com

CM Sex God du Jour
CM Hall Monitor

(in reply to RedMagic1)

Post #: 40

Page: << < prev 1 [2] 3 next > >>

All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> General BDSM Discussion >> RE: Non-destructive testing, exploration, and experimentation

Page: << < prev 1 [2] 3 next > >>

Jump to:

New Messages	No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages	Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages	Locked w/o New Messages

Post New Thread

Reply to Message

Post New Poll

Submit Vote

Delete My Own Post

Delete My Own Thread

Rate Posts

Collarchat.com © 2025

Terms of Service

0.125