Civil Liberties and Himan Rights Organizations Oppose Obama (Full Version)

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OrionTheWolf -> Civil Liberties and Himan Rights Organizations Oppose Obama (5/22/2009 6:15:18 PM)

" Civil liberties and human rights groups who criticized the Bush administration's detention policies are definitive in their opposition to Mr. Obama's plans.
"It's really crossing a constitutional Rubicon," said Jonathan Hafetz, American Civil Liberties Union attorney who represented Ali al Marri. Mr. al Marri recently pleaded guilty to being an al Qaeda sleeper agent after years being held without charge as an "enemy combatant." "

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124302633236948169.html




Louve00 -> RE: Civil Liberties and Himan Rights Organizations Oppose Obama (5/22/2009 7:06:28 PM)

Here is a similar view from Vincent Warren, Executive Director for the Center of Constitutional Rights.  (And Rachel Maddow's P.O.V., as well.)

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26315908#30877514



ThatDamnedPanda -> RE: Civil Liberties and Himan Rights Organizations Oppose Obama (5/22/2009 7:20:24 PM)

Psssttt.... Orion... you might want to edit the thread title.... before the avalanche of Clinton jokes sweeps us off the mountainside... 



Crush -> RE: Civil Liberties and Himan Rights Organizations Oppose Obama (5/22/2009 7:22:07 PM)

you mean like "hymen rights" Panda?

That is a virgin territory for a whole bunch of jokes, you are right!




ThatDamnedPanda -> RE: Civil Liberties and Himan Rights Organizations Oppose Obama (5/22/2009 7:24:30 PM)

Rats! Too late! The train's a'comin' now....[:D]



Cagey18 -> RE: Civil Liberties and Himan Rights Organizations Oppose Obama (5/22/2009 7:28:08 PM)

Let's keep hymen rights intact!



MrRodgers -> RE: Civil Liberties and Himan Rights Organizations Oppose Obama (5/22/2009 7:43:30 PM)

Obama is playing ball plus, the DOJ, FBI and CIA do NOT want any trials on 9/11. Too much to reveal...too much made public.



CruelNUnsual -> RE: Civil Liberties and Himan Rights Organizations Oppose Obama (5/22/2009 8:24:22 PM)

Its a lot easier to campaign than it is to actually do something effective, isnt it Blowboy?  Maybe thats why half your time is still spent campaigning.



DarkSteven -> RE: Civil Liberties and Himan Rights Organizations Oppose Obama (5/22/2009 9:13:02 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: CruelNUnsual

Its a lot easier to campaign than it is to actually do something effective, isnt it Blowboy?  Maybe thats why half your time is still spent campaigning.


Look, maybe you don't like his policies, but he's been pretty damn effective and active for his first 100 days.  Bailouts, changing the theater of was from Iraq, prodding the Pakistanis to actually do something, nudging the Middle East peace process, and beginning the Gitmo shutdown.  Feel free to criticize him on valid grounds but not on made-up ones.



CruelNUnsual -> RE: Civil Liberties and Himan Rights Organizations Oppose Obama (5/22/2009 9:41:30 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

quote:

ORIGINAL: CruelNUnsual

Its a lot easier to campaign than it is to actually do something effective, isnt it Blowboy?  Maybe thats why half your time is still spent campaigning.


Look, maybe you don't like his policies, but he's been pretty damn effective and active for his first 100 days.  Bailouts, changing the theater of was from Iraq, prodding the Pakistanis to actually do something, nudging the Middle East peace process, and beginning the Gitmo shutdown.  Feel free to criticize him on valid grounds but not on made-up ones.



The theater of war was already changing, and "his" Afghanistan/Pakistan policy is Petraeus' policy, lest we forget what Obama thought of him during the campaign. The bailouts are effective? At what? Widening an economic sinkhole?  the Middle East peace process is no different than it has been for the last 35 years. Gitmo isnt being shut down in the manner that he thought it would be. At best it will be a change of venue.  Dont credit him with effectiveness that doesnt exist.



OrionTheWolf -> RE: Civil Liberties and Himan Rights Organizations Oppose Obama (5/22/2009 9:46:13 PM)

My problem is starting to be the double standard and hypocricy. These things were denounced sharply by many democrats when Bush was doing them, but not a peep now that it is Obama. Just like some on this forum just steer clear of these topics, because they remember their own words over the last few years, and someone may just remind them of it.

When it comes to due process, I am a pretty strict. Here are the options:

1) Give them a trial and chips fall where they may.
2) Release them
3) Sign an executive order and lock them away

Which of these three should be done with the worst or the prisoners? The ones they mention may never be released. If it is that bad then why can't a court determine that? If it is that bad, then why doesn't a President have the balls to sign the order?

If something is wrong for Clinton, Bush or Obama, then it is wrong for all of them. This is not made up, this is continuing to happen today.


quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

quote:

ORIGINAL: CruelNUnsual

Its a lot easier to campaign than it is to actually do something effective, isnt it Blowboy?  Maybe thats why half your time is still spent campaigning.


Look, maybe you don't like his policies, but he's been pretty damn effective and active for his first 100 days.  Bailouts, changing the theater of was from Iraq, prodding the Pakistanis to actually do something, nudging the Middle East peace process, and beginning the Gitmo shutdown.  Feel free to criticize him on valid grounds but not on made-up ones.




CruelNUnsual -> RE: Civil Liberties and Himan Rights Organizations Oppose Obama (5/22/2009 9:58:58 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

My problem is starting to be the double standard and hypocricy. These things were denounced sharply by many democrats when Bush was doing them, but not a peep now that it is Obama. Just like some on this forum just steer clear of these topics, because they remember their own words over the last few years, and someone may just remind them of it.

When it comes to due process, I am a pretty strict. Here are the options:

1) Give them a trial and chips fall where they may.
2) Release them
3) Sign an executive order and lock them away

Which of these three should be done with the worst or the prisoners? The ones they mention may never be released. If it is that bad then why can't a court determine that? If it is that bad, then why doesn't a President have the balls to sign the order?

If something is wrong for Clinton, Bush or Obama, then it is wrong for all of them. This is not made up, this is continuing to happen today.




The problems are:

1) Rules of evidence, due process etc do not work in the context of terrorism. Take the trial of the blind Sheikh. It served better as a resource of information for terrorists than it did as "justice" for Abdel Rhaman.
2) Release them where? Their home countries dont want them back, and we sure as hell dont want them here.
3) Political correctness. As I said above, BHO is learning that it is a lot harder to lead than it is to campaign, and he is afraid of offending his flock as he realizes that "permanent detention" may be the only solution. I question whether he has the gumption to stand up to Soros et al.

And of course if he does your noted hypocrisy will be even more obvious. Changing the venue of detention from the relative luxury of Gitmo to the isolation of a federal maximum security prison will be proclaimed as "effective".



popeye1250 -> RE: Civil Liberties and Himan Rights Organizations Oppose Obama (5/22/2009 10:10:10 PM)

Well, they could execute them all as spies.
None of them were wearing uniforms, you couldn't discern them from the local populace.



CruelNUnsual -> RE: Civil Liberties and Himan Rights Organizations Oppose Obama (5/22/2009 11:05:07 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Well, they could execute them all as spies.
None of them were wearing uniforms, you couldn't discern them from the local populace.


you could execute the American citizens as traitors, but none of them are "spies" as far as I know. One unintended consequence of all of the liberal nonsense is that they will be shot in battle or while being apprehended, which at least doesnt cost as much as EITs



OrionTheWolf -> RE: Civil Liberties and Himan Rights Organizations Oppose Obama (5/22/2009 11:20:16 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: CruelNUnsual

The problems are:

1) Rules of evidence, due process etc do not work in the context of terrorism. Take the trial of the blind Sheikh. It served better as a resource of information for terrorists than it did as "justice" for Abdel Rhaman.


That is saying the American justice system does not work then. The same claim was used for espionage during the Cold War. If there is evidence then present it and allow a judge or jury to determine it.

quote:


2) Release them where? Their home countries dont want them back, and we sure as hell dont want them here.


To where ever they wish and will allow them to go.

quote:


3) Political correctness. As I said above, BHO is learning that it is a lot harder to lead than it is to campaign, and he is afraid of offending his flock as he realizes that "permanent detention" may be the only solution. I question whether he has the gumption to stand up to Soros et al.

And of course if he does your noted hypocrisy will be even more obvious. Changing the venue of detention from the relative luxury of Gitmo to the isolation of a federal maximum security prison will be proclaimed as "effective".


Well if you cannot do 1 or 2, then there is only number 3 left.

I agree about the hypocricy being evident by the silence of several posters that raked the former President across the coals for this, but not a peep for what is happening now. This is probably the largest problem with American, the partisianship creates an atmosphere where there is no moral or ethical integrity.



CruelNUnsual -> RE: Civil Liberties and Himan Rights Organizations Oppose Obama (5/22/2009 11:46:40 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

quote:

ORIGINAL: CruelNUnsual

The problems are:

1) Rules of evidence, due process etc do not work in the context of terrorism. Take the trial of the blind Sheikh. It served better as a resource of information for terrorists than it did as "justice" for Abdel Rhaman.


That is saying the American justice system does not work then. The same claim was used for espionage during the Cold War. If there is evidence then present it and allow a judge or jury to determine it.

No, it says the American justice system doesnt work for prosectuing terrorists. Tribunals are no less effective but far safer than judges and juries.

quote:


2) Release them where? Their home countries dont want them back, and we sure as hell dont want them here.


To where ever they wish and will allow them to go.

and if no one will allow them in, anywhere?

quote:


3) Political correctness. As I said above, BHO is learning that it is a lot harder to lead than it is to campaign, and he is afraid of offending his flock as he realizes that "permanent detention" may be the only solution. I question whether he has the gumption to stand up to Soros et al.

And of course if he does your noted hypocrisy will be even more obvious. Changing the venue of detention from the relative luxury of Gitmo to the isolation of a federal maximum security prison will be proclaimed as "effective".


Well if you cannot do 1 or 2, then there is only number 3 left.  Exactly. But in his naivete our hopeless leader didnt understand that or led his constituents on about what he could accomplish, and now his balls are in a vice for it.

I agree about the hypocricy being evident by the silence of several posters that raked the former President across the coals for this, but not a peep for what is happening now. This is probably the largest problem with American, the partisianship creates an atmosphere where there is no moral or ethical integrity.



Crush -> RE: Civil Liberties and Himan Rights Organizations Oppose Obama (5/23/2009 2:04:17 AM)

Of course, there is always option number 4...Terrorists and others use it in a permanent solution sort of way...



Louve00 -> RE: Civil Liberties and Himan Rights Organizations Oppose Obama (5/23/2009 6:45:42 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

My problem is starting to be the double standard and hypocricy. These things were denounced sharply by many democrats when Bush was doing them, but not a peep now that it is Obama.

If something is wrong for Clinton, Bush or Obama, then it is wrong for all of them. This is not made up, this is continuing to happen today.


I agree, the link I posted under your OP depicts Obama's speeches.  And his contradictions.  As far as whats wrong goes, I have asked myself that countless times.  Wild imagination makes me wonder if the presidents get briefed (or de-briefed) to things we, as a public, arent privvy to.  Maybe thats why the back-track this time.  As far as me dropping out of threads like this...I tend to say what I say whether it's well received or not (as long as I believe it honestly).  When people start going overboard and start contradicting themselves to the point to idiocy...or talking out their ass (usually about things *I* don't agree with)  thats when I bow out.  (why associate here with what I wouldn't anywhere else?)



Owner59 -> RE: Civil Liberties and Himan Rights Organizations Oppose Obama (5/23/2009 6:55:11 AM)

If you`re all up in arms about this ,Orion,what would you do with this mess?How would you close gitmo,or would you close it at all?

What would you do with the remaining men?




OrionTheWolf -> RE: Civil Liberties and Human Rights Organizations Oppose Obama (5/23/2009 8:48:18 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

If you`re all up in arms about this ,Orion,what would you do with this mess?How would you close gitmo,or would you close it at all?


The question is: What would Obama do, and how do you feel about it? I have already listed the options, or did you miss them? If I really wanted Gitmo closed, I would use discretionary spending to do so, rather than wait for Congress to approve the funds. I would first have the best Constitutional Lawyers look over the cases and send the ones that could, to Federal Courts. Any that we did not have enough evidence on to convict would go to a Military and Civilian review for release.
quote:


What would you do with the remaining men?


Any that were deemed too dangerous to release, but not enough evidence to convict, would be imprisoned for life via an Executive order as a threat to National Security. Any that were imprisoned without a judgment by Judge or Jury, would have an automatic review by a Military and Civilian review Board every four years.

Now what would you do? What are your opinions now of some of the same things being done by Obama, that were done by Bush? You were very quick to jump on them and condemn them in the past, as was I. I am still condemning them, but what are you doing?



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