RE: Right Wing Radio Host Water-boarded.."it`s absolutely torture"

RE: Right Wing Radio Host Water-boarded.."it`s absolutely torture" (Full Version)

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BitaTruble -> RE: Right Wing Radio Host Water-boarded.."it`s absolutely torture" (5/23/2009 12:48:45 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Cagey18 quote: ORIGINAL: TheHeretic quote: ORIGINAL: Cagey18 Already did. In it we actually find "asked and not answered". That's called "dodging". Speaking of sticking fingers in the ears, and going la-la-la-la, Cagey... Have a nice day. Perhaps you should reacquaint yourself with your beloved post #18. Effective in what sense? It doesn't run up the electric bill, splatter fluids that stain the curtains, or cause permanent physical harm. You can apply it as often as you like. Try ripping out someones fingernails 80 times in a month. I don't know. Maybe it's just me, but that sure as hell looks like an answer to the question. Cagey, Rich wasn't saying that torture is effective, he's saying that waterboarding is effective as a torture, then listed some of the reasons why it's effective, not the least of which is the fact that you can do it over and over again unlike pulling out someone's finger nails which you can only do 10 times ... unless you count toe nails, then double that. Pulling out finger nails is less effective as a torture because it's very finite whereas waterboarding, like the energy bunny, keeps going and going and going. At least, that's how I read the beloved post #18.

Cagey18 -> RE: Right Wing Radio Host Water-boarded.."it`s absolutely torture" (5/23/2009 1:14:04 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen quote: ORIGINAL: Cagey18 quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen quote: ORIGINAL: CruelNUnsual quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen Waterboarding causes the instinctual drowning response. IOW the part sof the brain we have no control of freak out and tries to make you do something, anything, to stop drowning but the person being waterboarded is physically restrained so what happens is you have the full on sensation of imminent death. Which certainly sounds like severe suffering to me. Then youve never felt real pain and suffering. Interesting variation on the no true scotsman argument. So second degree burns over 1/3rd of my body, a broken elbow and a torn medial collateral ligament aren't really painful? I think your defence of a repugnant practice can't get much more ridiculous. Of course, had it been the Obama administration using waterboarding... that defense would be curiously absent. And oh, the shouting about how that would ruin foreign policy... Bull. I'm most extremely displeased with Obama over his handling of this. The whole retaining the option to torture in the future idsgusts me. Doesn't matter who does it, it's unamerican and makes me regret giving 6 years of my life to defending this nation. No no, not from you... CnU and his ilk would be wailing about how wrong waterboarding is (if it were introduced, or still practiced)--how Obama is violating the Geneva Convention, and how it's affecting the trade deficit with other countries, etc., etc...

Cagey18 -> RE: Right Wing Radio Host Water-boarded.."it`s absolutely torture" (5/23/2009 1:25:23 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BitaTruble quote: ORIGINAL: Cagey18 quote: ORIGINAL: TheHeretic quote: ORIGINAL: Cagey18 Already did. In it we actually find "asked and not answered". That's called "dodging". Speaking of sticking fingers in the ears, and going la-la-la-la, Cagey... Have a nice day. Perhaps you should reacquaint yourself with your beloved post #18. Effective in what sense? It doesn't run up the electric bill, splatter fluids that stain the curtains, or cause permanent physical harm. You can apply it as often as you like. Try ripping out someones fingernails 80 times in a month. I don't know. Maybe it's just me, but that sure as hell looks like an answer to the question. Cagey, Rich wasn't saying that torture is effective, he's saying that waterboarding is effective as a torture, then listed some of the reasons why it's effective, not the least of which is the fact that you can do it over and over again unlike pulling out someone's finger nails which you can only do 10 times ... unless you count toe nails, then double that. Pulling out finger nails is less effective as a torture because it's very finite whereas waterboarding, like the energy bunny, keeps going and going and going. At least, that's how I read the beloved post #18. Silly me, I was using the actual definition of "effective", to wit, "producing desired results". In this context, "results" being "gaining useful information", and not, say, "pain for its own sake". Take a quick look at the forum heading. Is it "BDSM at Home"? No, it's "Politics and Religion". Catching on yet?

rulemylife -> RE: Right Wing Radio Host Water-boarded.."it`s absolutely torture" (5/23/2009 1:32:02 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BitaTruble It doesn't run up the electric bill, splatter fluids that stain the curtains, or cause permanent physical harm. You can apply it as often as you like. Try ripping out someones fingernails 80 times in a month. I don't know. Maybe it's just me, but that sure as hell looks like an answer to the question. Cagey, Rich wasn't saying that torture is effective, he's saying that waterboarding is effective as a torture, then listed some of the reasons why it's effective, not the least of which is the fact that you can do it over and over again unlike pulling out someone's finger nails which you can only do 10 times ... unless you count toe nails, then double that. Pulling out finger nails is less effective as a torture because it's very finite whereas waterboarding, like the energy bunny, keeps going and going and going. At least, that's how I read the beloved post #18. Well, no. Actually the original question involved someone who formerly believed waterboarding to not be torture admitting it was after he was waterboarded. And now we're talking the effectiveness of waterboarding as a torture. You know, sometimes I just have to slap myself across the face to remind myself this is not a bad dream but we actually have Americans openly debating the merits of different torture techniques.

Cagey18 -> RE: Right Wing Radio Host Water-boarded.."it`s absolutely torture" (5/23/2009 1:37:57 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: rulemylife Well, no. Actually the original question involved someone who formerly believed waterboarding to not be torture admitting it was after he was waterboarded. And now we're talking the effectiveness of waterboarding as a torture. You know, sometimes I just have to slap myself across the face to remind myself this is not a bad dream but we actually have Americans openly debating the merits of different torture techniques. Fortunately we have other Americans (like the FBI agent I mentioned) who believe in non-torture methods to gain information. Sadly, as you mention, we have bloodthirsty Americans who think waterboarding and other methods of torture are just fine and dandy, whether they work or not, since after all, we're fightin' terrists..

TheHeretic -> RE: Right Wing Radio Host Water-boarded.."it`s absolutely torture" (5/23/2009 1:41:09 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda There's no gray area at all. This country got along just fine for over 2 centuries without ever having to resort to torture as an official instrument of policy. We drove off the British attempt to take back the country in 1812, pulled the nation back together again after a horrendous civil war that came within a few battles of tearing it apart it forever, fought and helped win World War I, fought and helped win World War II, the bloodiest, most catastrophic war in the history of the human race, and then for 4 decades stared eyeball to eyeball with the Soviet Union on the edge of armageddon, all without ever having to sanction torture. And you feel so sure of this, Panda, because...? Are you thinking that waterboarding is something the CIA dreamed up after 9/11? We haven't had the public discussion and spotlight that I can think of, but do you really think this has never been used or authorized?

TheHeretic -> RE: Right Wing Radio Host Water-boarded.."it`s absolutely torture" (5/23/2009 1:53:52 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: rulemylife You know, sometimes I just have to slap myself across the face to remind myself this is not a bad dream but we actually have Americans openly debating the merits of different torture techniques. Welcome to ugly reality. During the pirate incident, we were casually discussing shooting people in the head as a tool of national policy. Maybe you could find an episode of Scrubs or something?

rulemylife -> RE: Right Wing Radio Host Water-boarded.."it`s absolutely torture" (5/23/2009 2:05:21 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TheHeretic Welcome to ugly reality. During the pirate incident, we were casually discussing shooting people in the head as a tool of national policy. Maybe you could find an episode of Scrubs or something? Yes, reality is sometimes ugly, but you can't compare the two situations. A standoff with criminals with a hostage involved is not the same as institutionalizing torture as a national policy. But my guess is you're one of the armchair quarterbacks. You know, those guys that spend every Sunday watching the NFL and know everything about the game except what it's like to be on the field.

TheHeretic -> RE: Right Wing Radio Host Water-boarded.."it`s absolutely torture" (5/23/2009 2:30:16 PM)
Lousy guess. I'm just not that into football. What I am is pragmatic, and perfectly willing to be an asshole when the situation requires.

Owner59 -> RE: Right Wing Radio Host Water-boarded.."it`s absolutely torture" (5/23/2009 2:43:28 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TheHeretic quote: ORIGINAL: rulemylife You know, sometimes I just have to slap myself across the face to remind myself this is not a bad dream but we actually have Americans openly debating the merits of different torture techniques. Welcome to ugly reality. During the pirate incident, we were casually discussing shooting people in the head as a tool of national policy. Maybe you could find an episode of Scrubs or something? And just the other day,you were "laughing" at the thought of another middle east war. What was the funniest part? The dead woman and UMs ?The tens/hundreds of thousands of refugees?The diseases that those people would suffer? I mistakenly left out of the OP a caveat that this thread was for serious posters. You are not needed.

TheHeretic -> RE: Right Wing Radio Host Water-boarded.."it`s absolutely torture" (5/23/2009 2:49:00 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Owner59 You are not needed. Sure I am, O59. Millions on welfare depend on me. [:D]

CruelNUnsual -> RE: Right Wing Radio Host Water-boarded.."it`s absolutely torture" (5/23/2009 2:50:41 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen quote: ORIGINAL: CruelNUnsual quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen Waterboarding causes the instinctual drowning response. IOW the part sof the brain we have no control of freak out and tries to make you do something, anything, to stop drowning but the person being waterboarded is physically restrained so what happens is you have the full on sensation of imminent death. Which certainly sounds like severe suffering to me. Then youve never felt real pain and suffering. Interesting variation on the no true scotsman argument. So second degree burns over 1/3rd of my body, a broken elbow and a torn medial collateral ligament aren't really painful? I think your defence of a repugnant practice can't get much more ridiculous. repugnant is in the eye of the beholder. If what you claim to have experienced is true there is no way in hell you would think that sleep deprivation, prolonged standing (within the government guidelines) and the rest of the list are "suffering".

CruelNUnsual -> RE: Right Wing Radio Host Water-boarded.."it`s absolutely torture" (5/23/2009 2:52:36 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Cagey18 quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen quote: ORIGINAL: Cagey18 quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen quote: ORIGINAL: CruelNUnsual quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen Waterboarding causes the instinctual drowning response. IOW the part sof the brain we have no control of freak out and tries to make you do something, anything, to stop drowning but the person being waterboarded is physically restrained so what happens is you have the full on sensation of imminent death. Which certainly sounds like severe suffering to me. Then youve never felt real pain and suffering. Interesting variation on the no true scotsman argument. So second degree burns over 1/3rd of my body, a broken elbow and a torn medial collateral ligament aren't really painful? I think your defence of a repugnant practice can't get much more ridiculous. Of course, had it been the Obama administration using waterboarding... that defense would be curiously absent. And oh, the shouting about how that would ruin foreign policy... Bull. I'm most extremely displeased with Obama over his handling of this. The whole retaining the option to torture in the future idsgusts me. Doesn't matter who does it, it's unamerican and makes me regret giving 6 years of my life to defending this nation. No no, not from you... CnU and his ilk would be wailing about how wrong waterboarding is (if it were introduced, or still practiced)--how Obama is violating the Geneva Convention, and how it's affecting the trade deficit with other countries, etc., etc... dont put words in my mouth, you dont have a goddam clue about what I would do or say, as evidenced by you being 100% wrong here.

CruelNUnsual -> RE: Right Wing Radio Host Water-boarded.."it`s absolutely torture" (5/23/2009 2:54:06 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: rulemylife You know, sometimes I just have to slap myself across the face to remind myself this is not a bad dream but we actually have Americans openly debating the merits of different torture techniques. I agree. To debate over tools that keep America safe is a nightmare.

DomKen -> RE: Right Wing Radio Host Water-boarded.."it`s absolutely torture" (5/23/2009 3:21:54 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CruelNUnsual quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen quote: ORIGINAL: CruelNUnsual quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen Waterboarding causes the instinctual drowning response. IOW the part sof the brain we have no control of freak out and tries to make you do something, anything, to stop drowning but the person being waterboarded is physically restrained so what happens is you have the full on sensation of imminent death. Which certainly sounds like severe suffering to me. Then youve never felt real pain and suffering. Interesting variation on the no true scotsman argument. So second degree burns over 1/3rd of my body, a broken elbow and a torn medial collateral ligament aren't really painful? I think your defence of a repugnant practice can't get much more ridiculous. repugnant is in the eye of the beholder. If what you claim to have experienced is true there is no way in hell you would think that sleep deprivation, prolonged standing (within the government guidelines) and the rest of the list are "suffering". Now you're trying to move the goalposts. Waterboarding was the subject not sleep deprivation or stress positions although my understanding is that both are extraordinarily effective at breaking a person down. Stress positions at least are extremely harmful, read John McCain's autobiography for details. Waterboarding is torture. So says every one who supported it who has submitted to it. Hitchens, Muller and a former government official, whose name I can't recall, all had it done to them and all came away having changed their minds and call it torture.

CruelNUnsual -> RE: Right Wing Radio Host Water-boarded.."it`s absolutely torture" (5/23/2009 3:30:08 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen quote: ORIGINAL: CruelNUnsual quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen quote: ORIGINAL: CruelNUnsual quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen Waterboarding causes the instinctual drowning response. IOW the part sof the brain we have no control of freak out and tries to make you do something, anything, to stop drowning but the person being waterboarded is physically restrained so what happens is you have the full on sensation of imminent death. Which certainly sounds like severe suffering to me. Then youve never felt real pain and suffering. Interesting variation on the no true scotsman argument. So second degree burns over 1/3rd of my body, a broken elbow and a torn medial collateral ligament aren't really painful? I think your defence of a repugnant practice can't get much more ridiculous. repugnant is in the eye of the beholder. If what you claim to have experienced is true there is no way in hell you would think that sleep deprivation, prolonged standing (within the government guidelines) and the rest of the list are "suffering". Now you're trying to move the goalposts. Waterboarding was the subject not sleep deprivation or stress positions although my understanding is that both are extraordinarily effective at breaking a person down. Stress positions at least are extremely harmful, read John McCain's autobiography for details. Waterboarding is torture. So says every one who supported it who has submitted to it. Hitchens, Muller and a former government official, whose name I can't recall, all had it done to them and all came away having changed their minds and call it torture. im not moving anything. The other techniques were mentioned previously and I included them here. "Everyone who supported it who has submitted to it" has changed their mind? " I personally know about 80 people who submitted to it who didnt change their mind (Marines at Camp Pendleton who were waterboarded as part of training) , so there you are just dead wrong. And since we are talking about techniques used on people with military training, their experience is far more relevant than a bad imitation of Scott Ferrall.

ThatDamnedPanda -> RE: Right Wing Radio Host Water-boarded.."it`s absolutely torture" (5/23/2009 3:48:07 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TheHeretic quote: ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda There's no gray area at all. This country got along just fine for over 2 centuries without ever having to resort to torture as an official instrument of policy. We drove off the British attempt to take back the country in 1812, pulled the nation back together again after a horrendous civil war that came within a few battles of tearing it apart it forever, fought and helped win World War I, fought and helped win World War II, the bloodiest, most catastrophic war in the history of the human race, and then for 4 decades stared eyeball to eyeball with the Soviet Union on the edge of armageddon, all without ever having to sanction torture. And you feel so sure of this, Panda, because...? Are you thinking that waterboarding is something the CIA dreamed up after 9/11? We haven't had the public discussion and spotlight that I can think of, but do you really think this has never been used or authorized? I'm positive about it, Rich. The history on this is clear. 60 years ago, we were hanging Japanese soldiers for doing this to American POWs. We called it torture then, we called them war criminals for doing it, and we hung them for it. It was just in the last few years that Cheney decided to redefine the term "torture"to mean whatever he wanted it to mean, and officialy made it American policy to do it to our enemies and suspected enemies.

rulemylife -> RE: Right Wing Radio Host Water-boarded.."it`s absolutely torture" (5/23/2009 3:53:59 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CruelNUnsual quote: ORIGINAL: rulemylife You know, sometimes I just have to slap myself across the face to remind myself this is not a bad dream but we actually have Americans openly debating the merits of different torture techniques. I agree. To debate over tools that keep America safe is a nightmare. Tools huh? That's even more pathetic than calling torture methods enhanced interrogation techniques.

ThatDamnedPanda -> RE: Right Wing Radio Host Water-boarded.."it`s absolutely torture" (5/23/2009 3:55:17 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CruelNUnsual And since we are talking about techniques used on people with military training, their experience is far more relevant than a bad imitation of Scott Ferrall. This is one of the most illogical arguments I've ever seen you make. So what you're saying is, "I can hack it, so it isn't torture." If I walk up and kick you in the balls, and you can hack that, I suppose that wasn't assault then?

BitaTruble -> RE: Right Wing Radio Host Water-boarded.."it`s absolutely torture" (5/23/2009 4:04:36 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Cagey18 Silly me, I was using the actual definition of "effective", to wit, "producing desired results". In this context, "results" being "gaining useful information", and not, say, "pain for its own sake". Take a quick look at the forum heading. Is it "BDSM at Home"? No, it's "Politics and Religion". Catching on yet? Rich was not talking about gaining information, he was talking about torture. If the desired effect is to torture someone, then waterboarding is effective. And, yes, I'm well aware of the title of the thread and while it's not BDSM at home, neither is it Sesame Street, so you can try posting like an adult or you can be ignored. Your choice.

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