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RE: North Korean Threat - 5/30/2009 5:24:09 PM

lazarus1983

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

ORIGINAL: lazarus1983

It wasn't until MacArthur's overrated Inchon landing that we were able to start pushing the North Koreans back. Initially they pushed us all the way down the peninsula to a small pocket known as the Pusan Perimeter. For a while, there was a very real fear that we would have a Dunkirk on our hands, that our forces would get pushed into the ocean.

Granted most of their initial success is due to the miserable state the US Army was in, and the initial attitude that "all the US Army has to do is show up, and those North Koreans will run back across the border." That changed when our rocket launchers bounced harmlessly off their Russian tanks, and their highly trained and disciplined army rolled over our poorly trained and undisciplined peace-time army.

You seem to have forgotten the Marines...no one rolled over them...without China and Russia it would have been over in weeks after the Inchon landings.

With the present state of training in our arm forces I think it would be an even shorter battle...or rather I hope. But like you say we can't underestimate them. Anyway we will have little choice if he decides to attack.

Butch

The Marines weren't there initially, and were only used during and after the Inchon landing. Granted they were used on two occasions to plug holes in the Pusan Perimeter, but until Inchon they had very very little significant involvement.

Unfortunately our military leaders were feeling pretty high and mighty because at the time we were the only nation with the atom bomb. Truman zealously cut the armed forces' budgets and downsized the Army as much as possible. The troops that initially responded to try and stop North Korea were MacArthur's troops in Japan, which were in no way combat ready. Equipment and training had been severely neglected, and that is a major contributing factor to why North Korea was so dominant in the beginning stages.

However that's very true, that without China's involvement, the war could have been over in weeks after Inchon. However MacArthur was adamant about invading China, to the point that on several occasions he went against President Truman. So China might still have gotten involved, had Truman not eventually fired MacArthur.

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Post #: 41

RE: North Korean Threat - 5/31/2009 6:00:07 AM

MrRodgers

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What bothers me as much as anything is their abrogation of the armistice that ended hostilities between N and S.

Also, I have been of the thinking that as a measure to liberate Seoul and cut off the NK army, the landing and the subsequent 2 weeks post Inchon, with Seoul secured...the invasion was an unmitigated success.

It is also my understanding that the subsequent effort to continue north is what both brought in the massive Chinese army whose only function it seemed was to use up our ammo...got MacArthur fired and is what stalled the advance and eventually brought on the armistice.

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RE: North Korean Threat - 5/31/2009 1:21:16 PM

lazarus1983

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

What bothers me as much as anything is their abrogation of the armistice that ended hostilities between N and S.

Also, I have been of the thinking that as a measure to liberate Seoul and cut off the NK army, the landing and the subsequent 2 weeks post Inchon, with Seoul secured...the invasion was an unmitigated success.

It is also my understanding that the subsequent effort to continue north is what both brought in the massive Chinese army whose only function it seemed was to use up our ammo...got MacArthur fired and is what stalled the advance and eventually brought on the armistice.

Inchon was a success, but it is far from a master strategic move that people think. A landing such as that is standard protocol in a peninsular war, and a landing at Inchon was even suggested at the beginning of the Korean War by Pentagon staffers. There is also wide speculation that if General Walton Walker had the Marines in the Pusan Perimeter, they could have just as easily broken out there as well, because North Korea had so overextended their supply lines all the way down South Korea.

What got MacArthur fired was constantly disregarding President Truman and the Chiefs of Staff. Any time he got wind that Truman was attempting to start negotiations with the Chinese for an armistice, MacArthur immediately sabotaged it. When Truman specifically directed MacArthur not to make any more public announcements without clearing them with him and the Chiefs of Staff...MacArthur quickly made several speeches denouncing the Chinese and any chance at peace with them.

And when the Chinese attacked, they didn't just "stall our advance." They pushed us right back down into South Korea, losing Seoul in the process.

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Post #: 43

RE: North Korean Threat - 5/31/2009 2:03:15 PM

Aneirin

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quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

1) Let the neighbors of the problem areas be the police, or let chaos reign. The US should stop being that police force.

2) How is the US reaping what it has sown?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin

Maybe many things are happening in the world,and will happen, because the world police being the U.S. is getting tired of wasting it's citizens lives in other peoples conflicts. Threats will come and threats will go, but without the U.S, who is going to deal with the problem.

But then, is the U.S. not reaping what it has sown as regards nuclear weapon technology ?

The first nuclear country, the U.S. pushed for the atomic bomb to be created, and used it against a country, Japan being that country. Since that disgusting episode, no other country has used the technology as a weapon. It could even be said that the atomic bomb is the ultimate peacemaker, as war since has not been the same, no one dare use the weapon, though many have it.

Now, regards the bombs dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki in the last few hours of the war against Japan, not only did the targets, that being industry was obliterated in those regions, but the populace bore the human disaster, those that were unlicky enough to survive lived their life in pain and discomfort intil they died in pain and discomfort, some many years after the detonation.

Bad of the U.S. to do so, but if it were'nt the U.S. to be first, it would have been somebody else, and possibly far worse than what resulted. Oppenheimer, the chief brain in the project should despite the use of the weapon be awarded a peace prize, for his brain created a fear of using his creation, It is a pity after the event, after he had fulfilled his usefulness, the U.S. hounded him for his communist beliefs.

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Post #: 44

RE: North Korean Threat - 5/31/2009 2:30:26 PM

kdsub

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I think you take too many liberties with your criticism of the US for the use of the atomic bomb. This was a weapon not fully understood as too its power and destruction and certainly not understood by those who gave the OK for its use.

To me it was the best thing that could have happened... Without the use of the bomb millions would have been killed in the attack of Japan... AND the world would not have experienced the horror and destruction.

Without the world seeing for themselves what the bomb could do there would be no fear today of nuclear weapons. Without fear they would be used...and perhaps destroy us all..

So you should be thinking the US for their decision...it may well be responsible for your life today.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 5/31/2009 2:32:04 PM >

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Post #: 45

RE: North Korean Threat - 5/31/2009 5:14:00 PM

Aneirin

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Did you understand my post ?

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Post #: 46

RE: North Korean Threat - 5/31/2009 5:23:47 PM

Loxosceles

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quote:

ORIGINAL: servantforuse

North Korea just tested a nuclear bomb larger than those used to end WWII. I don't remember them trying something like that while President Bush was in office. They feel they can do anything right now..

You should Google it. They tested one in 2006 - while His Highness Bush the II was in office.

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Post #: 47

RE: North Korean Threat - 5/31/2009 7:19:12 PM

kdsub

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin

Did you understand my post ?

Yes we are agreeing on one level but disagreeing on another...it happens all the time.

I disagree with the reaping and sowing... those that started WWII take the blame ...not one little bit the US...disagree #1

It was not a disgusting episode... it saved by conservative estimates 3/4 of a million lives or more…a terrible choice to be sure but the right one… disagree# 2

The blood and guts of a million civilians and ¾ million soldiers would be the real disgusting result of not using the bomb.

Easy to criticize but in reality harder to justify an alternative to the decision to use the weapon.

We agree on the fact that the horrid display has become a deterrent.

But do we not also disagree that the use of the bomb was a good thing…rather than bad?

Butch

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Post #: 48

RE: North Korean Threat - 5/31/2009 9:11:27 PM

TheHeretic

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin
Now, regards the bombs dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki in the last few hours of the war against Japan,

Aneirin, I don't know if you phrased it this way because your beliefs about the events are wrong, or because you intentionally wish to present a deceptive account to those who do not know any better. Either way, I call BULLSHIT on you.

Without the dropping of those bombs, the war was nowhere near over. In fact, the bloodiest battle of them all was still to come. The invasion of Honshu didn't happen, because of those bombs.

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Post #: 49

RE: North Korean Threat - 5/31/2009 10:30:07 PM

Arpig

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While we will never know for certain if Japan would have surrendered without having to be invaded if the bombs had not been dropped, I have never come across anything to suggest they would have. This, especially since those making the decision to drop the bomb certainly had no such information, is very relevant. The best estimates available at the time was that an invasion of Japan would have resulted in horrendous casualties, both civilian and military (on both sides militarily speaking), and in that light the decision to use the bomb is not only understandable, but probably the right decision at the time.

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Post #: 50

RE: North Korean Threat - 6/1/2009 10:49:32 AM

Loki45

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin

Did you understand my post ?

Yes we are agreeing on one level but disagreeing on another...it happens all the time.

I disagree with the reaping and sowing... those that started WWII take the blame ...not one little bit the US...disagree #1

It was not a disgusting episode... it saved by conservative estimates 3/4 of a million lives or more…a terrible choice to be sure but the right one… disagree# 2

The blood and guts of a million civilians and ¾ million soldiers would be the real disgusting result of not using the bomb.

Easy to criticize but in reality harder to justify an alternative to the decision to use the weapon.

We agree on the fact that the horrid display has become a deterrent.

But do we not also disagree that the use of the bomb was a good thing…rather than bad?

Butch

I've got a bit of news for the both of you (though the majority of my agreement goes with kdsub).

I just watched a documentary on the B-29. For those that still don't know, the B-29 was the plane that carried the bombs to their targets. According to the documentary, we dropped the first bomb. Japan refused to surrender. We dropped the second bomb. Still, Japan efused to surrender. It wasn't until our Pacific fleet sent over 1,000 planes in a "fly-over, show of force" that Japan finally surrendered. Even ater all that death, two complete cities destroyed, still they wanted war.

So yes, I'm with kdsub. Let's keep the blame where it's due. They attacked us first and without warning while proclaiming to be our friends. Then, despite the loss of city after city, they still refused to surrender.

War is a dirty business. But the shortest path to its end is usually the best. It's also usually the most devastating.

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Post #: 51