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Pharmacist shoots robber - charged with murder - 5/30/2009 10:11:27 AM

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       Where does self-defense become vigilantism? The news story from Oklahoma City can be found here:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090530/ap_on_re_us/us_pharmacy_shooting

    And the store security video of the events are here:

http://www.ktul.com/news/stories/0509/626947.html

     Lots to speculate about, since the security video doesn't show what the downed criminal was doing when the store employee shot him 5 more times. Does it even matter though? Does committing the sort of act the robber was engaged in justify the response he got?





< Message edited by TheHeretic -- 5/30/2009 10:14:26 AM >

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RE: Pharmacist shoots robber - charged with murder - 5/30/2009 10:23:08 AM

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...i just saw this story, you beat me to it....lol

Assuming the story as written is true, we have two shooting incidents. One of self defence........while the robber is waving a gun about then the guy was clearly justified in protecting himself. The second incident though is different. The article says the robber was, at that point, unconscious. That's not self defence, that's summary execution. While we can argue the pros and cons of the death penalty, it is the states job not members of the public to perform executions.
It's a dangerous precedent to legalise the killing of unconscious people by members of the public.

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RE: Pharmacist shoots robber - charged with murder - 5/30/2009 10:28:35 AM

hlen5

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Murder.

I'm a gun owner. If the pharmacy worker was confident enough to turn his back on the UN-ARMED robber, He had no reason to shoot the robber in the gut.

He could have gone back into the store, called the cops and watched the downed robber with that second gun.

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RE: Pharmacist shoots robber - charged with murder - 5/30/2009 10:30:53 AM

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He'll get acquitted.

Compare his case to Bernard Goetz. Goetz was acquitted in liberal New York, when it was clear that he was out looking for trouble after being mugged before.

Ersland will be tried in conservative Oklahoma, and there are laws for those that defend their businesses.

Although the law tries to be impartial, there is definitely a question in my mind about the characters of the people involved. Ersland is a veteran who works fulltime. His attackers were minors who thought nothing of armed robbery. Parker's mother has expressed no remorse that her 16 year old son would turn to a life of crome, and I noted that her last name is different than his. The kids were young, so I suspect that their motivation was money for drugs (maybe drugs themselves).

This will be seen by some as racial. I wish Obama would weigh in here with a reprisal of his speech of how the black community needs to conduct itself better.

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RE: Pharmacist shoots robber - charged with murder - 5/30/2009 10:32:11 AM

Crush

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Without knowing what was happening under the camera's vision, it becomes a guess.

First blush: He had the right to defend himself facing a firearm with the threats that were voiced. He crossed the line shooting him again *if* the bad guy was no threat. Any responsible CCW holder knows that. And he deserves to be arrested and tried for manslaughter. And he wasted bullets....a crime in and of itself.

Second blush: *If* the perp was trying to attack him again, then all is OK. A lot will depend on what comes out in the investigation.

But hey, it is the "News" so it is the unusual event that gets reported.

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RE: Pharmacist shoots robber - charged with murder - 5/30/2009 10:37:53 AM

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After reading that article, it seems that the store owner crossed the line from defending himself to murder. He did shot the one suspect in the head and thus wounding him, to grab another gun and shoot the wounded person another 5 times indicates an intent to kill.

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RE: Pharmacist shoots robber - charged with murder - 5/30/2009 10:49:44 AM

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If he is only charged charged with 1st Degree Murder there is a very good chance he will be acquitted. If the DA adds additional charges like Agravated Manslaughter then he will likely be found guilty of those.

I applaud his efforts to defend himself and his business but from the video the additional shooting of the downed suspect looks very pre-meditated. I really don't think that was justified.

Didn't the story say the kid was shot in the head? If the coronor states he would not likely have survived from that wound then I think Murder-1 goes out the window.

I think the proper course of action, after perp #2 left, was to stay behind the counter and call 911.

Damned video cams work both ways :D

This will be very interesting to watch as it develops.

~Dave

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RE: Pharmacist shoots robber - charged with murder - 5/30/2009 10:59:59 AM

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        "Shot in the head" really doesn't tell us very much at all, Dave. Skulls are thick, and bullets ricochet. It's easy to conjure images of the worst case, but I know a guy who was shot in the head at point blank range, who proceeded to chase the shooter for three blocks.

       It looks calculated on the video, but, given that that the guy who wound up dead created the situation to begin with, I think the benefit of any and all doubt has to be given to the man who had the situation thrust upon him.



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RE: Pharmacist shoots robber - charged with murder - 5/30/2009 11:21:38 AM

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The news report specifically says one robber had a gun and he was the one arrested some time later - which means that the one shot didnt have a gun - thus the pharmacist is on shaky ground even at this point to argue self defence as the reason for shooting him, but no jury would ever dispute self defence to this point.

However it would be extremely difficult to argue that an unarmed man, shot in the head and lying on the ground was in any state to threaten anyone still less able to mount an attack, thus at that point, removing any possibility that shooting him might be justified in any way by self defence. Still, assuming the jury is permitted to make its own decision and isnt directed (as in the UK) to find one way or another, one would strongly suspect that sympathies should lie with the pharmacist even though he committed what was an execution for whatever reason and should certainly face conviction for (by UK description) "manslaughter on the grounds of dimished responsibility" (due to the nature of the incident).

There are great dangers in this case however, which any jury and judge must take into account quite outside the present circumstances. Dependent on the verdict and sentence (if any) reached, raiders may choose to shoot first in future, store keepers may choose not to shoot at all or to shoot first in future.

I for one hope that the race element that some will undoubtedly wish to colour the case with, shall not be permitted to affect the case or indeed incite passions on either side. The skin tone of those involved should be a totally irrelevant matter in the treatment of all concerned.

E

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RE: Pharmacist shoots robber - charged with murder - 5/30/2009 12:15:41 PM

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He'll get off. The robbers called it not him.
Once they cross the line into an armed robbery it is *they* who are at jeopardy. And any response at that point should be overwhelming.

< Message edited by popeye1250 -- 5/30/2009 12:16:35 PM >

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RE: Pharmacist shoots robber - charged with murder - 5/30/2009 12:30:32 PM

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Having read the article and seen the video I'll buy the self-defence motive up to the point one of the youths leaves the store, but no further.

However I did see the pharmacist go behind the counter, get the handgun, turn, walk several paces back and shoot the other youth whilst he was lying on the ground, and that to me is clearly premeditated and clearly murder.

However I don't see any reason for any possibility for the death penalty, given that there are no aggravating factors and I wouldn't especially call it a heinous murder. Stupid yes, but heinous no.

ETA: Two wrongs don't make a right. Granted the other youth should face charges of armed robbery, but to me it would appear that the robbery was over when he fled the pharmacy.

< Message edited by stella41b -- 5/30/2009 12:33:49 PM >

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RE: Pharmacist shoots robber - charged with murder - 5/30/2009 1:04:13 PM

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i watched the second counter and it seemed to be only 12 seconds from when he came back in the store til he shot the guy again. thats not a long time, when you have been shot at and probably are not sure if the other guy has a gun.

adrenaline running, terrified, the guy on the ground twitches, id shoot. hell i might shoot just to be sure he isnt gonna come up with a gun.

the man is a pharmacist, not a trained cop, and i think he killed because he was in fear for his life. i hope they drop the charges, and perhaps some other thugs will think twice before doing something like this.

sadly, no matter what, the bad guys were black and the pharmacist white, and thats all some will choose to see. they will make it all about race, not about the crime its self.

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RE: Pharmacist shoots robber - charged with murder - 5/30/2009 1:23:13 PM

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fr

I read the article as well. My first thought, okay, the guy didn't have a gun but, did the pharmacist know that? His bloods pumping, he's scared, someone just tried to shoot HIS ass and the kid has on a ski mask so I'd call it pretty unlikely he would have known the extent of the injuries sustained. Would a 'reasonable' person have done what he did in the same circumstance. That's the question and that's the criteria which has to be met. There was less than a minute from start to finish .. how much time does that really give you to think and weigh a choice if you believe your own life and those of your co-workers are on the line and you're not sure what some guy laying there wearing a ski mask who just threatened your life and may yet want to kill you is still capable of doing?

With the evidence so far, my first vote is not guilty. I would need way more evidence to convict right now.

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RE: Pharmacist shoots robber - charged with murder - 5/30/2009 1:29:16 PM

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quote:

Granted the other youth should face charges of armed robbery, but to me it would appear that the robbery was over when he fled the pharmacy.

Just an FYI, Stella. In the US, if someone dies during the commission of a felony, even if there was no intent to kill, that's considered murder here so even though the guy fled the scene, didn't pull the trigger that killed the kid, he'll will be facing a murder charge.

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RE: Pharmacist shoots robber - charged with murder - 5/30/2009 1:44:40 PM

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I understand the discourse of this thread.

What bothers me is the concept that thieves (, thugs, and scammers) have any rights a at all.

MstrPBK
St Paul, MN USA

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RE: Pharmacist shoots robber - charged with murder - 5/30/2009 1:44:45 PM

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Well if the pharmacist was really that scared surely he would have summoned help or raised the alarm when he was outside the pharmacy? However he chose to reenter the pharmacy alone and unarmed, walking towards the youth to go behind the counter to get a handgun, turning his back on the youth.. He then walked several paces back to the youth to shoot him.

I see neither fear nor any sort of action justifying the pharmacist taking the law into his own hands by shooting the youth five times. However I see plenty of deliberate actions, irrespective of the mindset at that particular time.

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RE: Pharmacist shoots robber - charged with murder - 5/30/2009 1:45:36 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble

quote:

Granted the other youth should face charges of armed robbery, but to me it would appear that the robbery was over when he fled the pharmacy.

Just an FYI, Stella. In the US, if someone dies during the commission of a felony, even if there was no intent to kill, that's considered murder here so even though the guy fled the scene, didn't pull the trigger that killed the kid, he'll will be facing a murder charge.

Bita is right. He set the chain of events into motion.

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RE: Pharmacist shoots robber - charged with murder - 5/30/2009 1:49:01 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: stella41b
I see neither fear nor any sort of action justifying the pharmacist taking the law into his own hands by shooting the youth five times. However I see plenty of deliberate actions, irrespective of the mindset at that particular time.

Again, here in the US, the pharacists mindset is going to be the key issue which decides his fate. The jury is going to have to think like him to decide if what he did was reasonable under the circumstance. You can't discount mindset in a case like this in this country.

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RE: Pharmacist shoots robber - charged with murder - 5/30/2009 1:59:18 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MstrPBK

I understand the discourse of this thread.

What bothers me is the concept that thieves (, thugs, and scammers) have any rights a at all.

MstrPBK
St Paul, MN USA

And where do you think the line should be drawn? Which crimes should result in the loss of all rights? Jaywalking? Traffic offences? Drug possesion?

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RE: Pharmacist shoots robber - charged with murder - 5/30/2009 2:09:41 PM

hlen5

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In retrospect, there might be something to the pharm worker's mindset. The entire video from the time the would-be robbers entered the store til the worker is calling the cops is less than a minute.
However, the worker is retired military. He knows his way around a gun. He TURNS HIS BACK on the wounded robber, gets another gun, and gut-shoots several more times. Horrible pun not intended, this is overkill.

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