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RE: Is belief......? - 5/31/2009 10:19:36 PM   
Arpig


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quote:

Stephen Hawkings is no God, he can be argued with. There is no conflict between science and religion. Sometimes it is mistakenly assumed that scientists are atheists.
True, but he is arguably one of the smartest men alive, and I am sure he would make mince meat out of me in any debate we might have. And my point wasn't that he was the final authority, just that if science was somehow in conflict with religion, then one assume that one of the foremost living scientists in the world would likely see that conflict, yet he doesn't. I also see no conflict, not because he doesn't, but simply because I don't.

< Message edited by Arpig -- 5/31/2009 10:20:06 PM >


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RE: Is belief......? - 6/1/2009 12:55:05 AM   
RCdc


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin

Is belief in something possibly supernatural really a lack of belief in science ?


No.

quote:

Many look at a god  as being the creator of all things, the reason we are here, why we live etc, but there are others that believe science has the answer. Science has made many discoveries and will make more discoveries, many of them pertaining to life. So could it be seen as the entity believers  will not take science as a viable answer or even a way forward, they are in fact denying the viability of science through whatever means and prefering the unexplainable possible something other.


Only ignorance makes this ridiculous generalisation true on both sides.

quote:

Could it be the supernatural believers are in fact refusing to believe there is a possibility of something else, and so are are closed minded ?


Who said they refuse?  You are.
Sometimes I am intrigued by who is the more closed minded.
 
the.dark.

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RE: Is belief......? - 6/1/2009 3:58:54 AM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin

Is belief in something possibly supernatural really a lack of belief in science ?

Many look at a god  as being the creator of all things, the reason we are here, why we live etc, but there are others that believe science has the answer. Science has made many discoveries and will make more discoveries, many of them pertaining to life. So could it be seen as the entity believers  will not take science as a viable answer or even a way forward, they are in fact denying the viability of science through whatever means and prefering the unexplainable possible something other.

Could it be the supernatural believers are in fact refusing to believe there is a possibility of something else, and so are are closed minded ?



Surely science is underpinned by empiricism; whereas metaphysics certainly isn't. Ultimately the belief in a god is more in tune with magic than it is science.

I don't fall into the 'religion is the root of evil' category; I do think however that claiming the existence of something on the grounds that you can't prove that it doesn't exist simply doesn't wash.

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RE: Is belief......? - 6/1/2009 5:50:24 AM   
MarsBonfire


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Two human schools of thought:

1) observe, hypothisize, test, and adjust theory to new information...

2) make shit up because it's comforting.

Let's see.. if I were to be diagnosed with a tumor tomorrow, would immediatley run to church and beg God to help me, throwing money into the collection plate? Or would I have the tests to see if it's malignant, and possibly have surgury to save my life?

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RE: Is belief......? - 6/1/2009 5:52:42 AM   
Aneirin


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin

Is belief in something possibly supernatural really a lack of belief in science ?


No.

quote:

Many look at a god  as being the creator of all things, the reason we are here, why we live etc, but there are others that believe science has the answer. Science has made many discoveries and will make more discoveries, many of them pertaining to life. So could it be seen as the entity believers  will not take science as a viable answer or even a way forward, they are in fact denying the viability of science through whatever means and prefering the unexplainable possible something other.


Only ignorance makes this ridiculous generalisation true on both sides.

quote:

Could it be the supernatural believers are in fact refusing to believe there is a possibility of something else, and so are are closed minded ?


Who said they refuse?  You are.
Sometimes I am intrigued by who is the more closed minded.
 
the.dark.


D, it was a thread brought about to enable conversation on the differences between  science and religion. Atheism, the lack of belief in the mystical, often atheists are more science driven, whereas the religious might dispute the scientific community's view on creation. It was not a thread meant to promote my feelings or views, but to simply discuss the possibilities. Where there is confusion, or lack of understanding, the issues must be made  visible and there talked about, that way, hopefully some degree of understanding can be gained. You know how I think, and you know my heart is in the right place despite how something might come across.


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RE: Is belief......? - 6/1/2009 6:08:27 AM   
maybemaybenot


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MarsBonfire


Let's see.. if I were to be diagnosed with a tumor tomorrow, would immediatley run to church and beg God to help me, throwing money into the collection plate? Or would I have the tests to see if it's malignant, and possibly have surgury to save my life?


D- All of the above

No reason one can't pray AND seek medical treatment. < excluding the Christian Scientists>

                              mbmbn

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RE: Is belief......? - 6/1/2009 7:15:22 AM   
maybemaybenot


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin


D, it was a thread brought about to enable conversation on the differences between  science and religion. Atheism, the lack of belief in the mystical, often atheists are more science driven, whereas the religious might dispute the scientific community's view on creation. It was not a thread meant to promote my feelings or views, but to simply discuss the possibilities. Where there is confusion, or lack of understanding, the issues must be made  visible and there talked about, that way, hopefully some degree of understanding can be gained. You know how I think, and you know my heart is in the right place despite how something might come across.



The divide between science and religion is pretty small, IMO. You have a few Fundimentalist religions who reject Darwinism, but most Christian denominations don't take a hardline stand on this issue. Other then creation, I can't think of any " big issues" that religion may reject in favor of faith.

Personally, I don't ever give it much thought, don't really care.It's not a big issue of conflict.  Like some people love to say here in regards to Biblical things : we weren't there, all we have is someone's account of the story. We will never have an answer to the evolution/creation story. Even parts of the scientific community call it a thoery. We have other theories as well. I guess one can just pick the option they feel is best presented or fits into their own personal philosophy best.

I think there is more in the Bible that is consistant with science than there is that separates the two. Biblical Scripture supports astronomy, meteorology, hydrology. biology, even some say certain passages of Job are in reference to Dinosaurs.
Issiah even suggests that the earth is spherical, not flat, centuries before  that became known. Geocentrism was promoted by the early Catholic Church and had no Biblical basis. There is scripture in Job that is consistant with cavemen having inhabited the earth. Which could support the theory of evolution if one were to take that stretch.

As a Christian, I prefer to look to the similarities rather than the differences. I think it is much more interesting to see what man < science > has brought about as fact, that was already noted in the Bible. For me, the Bible is not a scientific book, was never intended as such, but there is much that is in harmony with what we have come to know as scientific fact. By definition science and faith are not similar, but within each there are distinct similarities, which for me, only strengthens my faith. For others is backs up the " foolishness" of the faithful.

                      mbmbn

note; " big issues" in paragraph 1 = scientific issues.

< Message edited by maybemaybenot -- 6/1/2009 8:14:20 AM >


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RE: Is belief......? - 6/1/2009 7:43:08 AM   
Apocalypso


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MarsBonfire
Let's see.. if I were to be diagnosed with a tumor tomorrow, would immediatley run to church and beg God to help me, throwing money into the collection plate? Or would I have the tests to see if it's malignant, and possibly have surgury to save my life?
False dichotomy.  Equally, if I was wanting to create a painting, would I do so using the scientific method?  Attempting to apply the scientific method to philosophical questions is no more workable than attempting to apply Brecht's theory of theatre to the study of astrophysics.


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RE: Is belief......? - 6/1/2009 10:09:56 AM   
blacksword404


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

quote:

ORIGINAL: littlewonder

I believe science and belief in god and faith go hand in hand. They work together in perfect balance and harmony.



What about when the two ideas clash, such as Darwinism ?


Going by Darwinism, we should not be here on computers talking to each other. Evolution takes 6 millions years to learn this, 4 million to learn that. and then all of a sudden the Sumerians pop up practically with all the knowledge. They are the first in everything. All other countries knowledge leads back to the Sumerians. And it does not fit that the first civilization would be a storehouse of knowledge while everybody else knew little to nothing.

A German discovers something. An Australian builds on that discovery. And maybe a Japanese scientist builds on his knowledge. For just one country to know everything and be the ones to disseminate it to everybody else goes against how we learn.

Seems to me Someone intervened in the process to get us to where we are. We should still be hunting with wood sticks with stone points.

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RE: Is belief......? - 6/1/2009 10:13:07 AM   
philosophy


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.......what is it with you and the Sumerians? Did they have gene therapy? Plastics? Computers?  Electricity generating capacity? Did they split the atom? Plastic surgery? Lasers?

i'm pretty sure they didn't know everything.........

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RE: Is belief......? - 6/1/2009 10:16:34 AM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

Then all of a sudden the Sumerians pop up practically with all the knowledge. They are the first in everything.


They'd have to share credit with ancient India and China, at the very least.



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RE: Is belief......? - 6/1/2009 10:21:53 AM   
blacksword404


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quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

.......what is it with you and the Sumerians? Did they have gene therapy? Plastics? Computers?  Electricity generating capacity? Did they split the atom? Plastic surgery? Lasers?

i'm pretty sure they didn't know everything.........


If you want to know where you are going, you need to know where you came from.

They probably did have plastics. Maybe plastic surgery. They operated on people's eyes. They had paved roads. And almost as much use for a barrel of oil as we do now.

You can talk bad about them if you want. I don't think anybody around here speaks akkadian.

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RE: Is belief......? - 6/1/2009 10:23:39 AM   
Arpig


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And the Summerians were not the originators of all things civilised. The Indus civilisation and Chinese civilisation, and those of the Americas developped in isolation from the Summerian one. The Summerian civilisation is the wellspring of the middle eastern civilisation from which our own descends, but certainly not the originator of all civilisations, otherwise how does one explain the fact that something as ancient and revolutionary as the wheel was never developped in the Americas. Surely if the Amerindian civilisations had somehow been seeded from the Old World, then a piece of technology as basic and essential as the wheel would have been part of that seeding, to believe otherwise is, in my opinion, simply idiotic.
quote:

and then all of a sudden the Sumerians pop up practically with all the knowledge
The Summerians didn't just pop up all of a sudden, their civilisation develloped over a period of roughly 3000 years, plenty of time for the development of agriculture, paved roads, and an understanding of certain medical procedures (and there is no evidence whatsoever that they had plastics). While the Summerian culture is a fascinating one, and their advancements were enormous, they represent one of those periods of time wherein enormous strides and discoveries were made, much like our own period. Similar periods have happened independantly all across the world in different places at different times.

< Message edited by Arpig -- 6/1/2009 10:29:49 AM >


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RE: Is belief......? - 6/1/2009 10:32:53 AM   
blacksword404


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

Then all of a sudden the Sumerians pop up practically with all the knowledge. They are the first in everything.


They'd have to share credit with ancient India and China, at the very least.



Maybe so. It should be interesting to see what we find out in the next 20 to 30 years.

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RE: Is belief......? - 6/1/2009 10:34:18 AM   
beargonewild


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How I see this is supernatural beliefs try to explain the unexplainable. Science evolved to explain much of what was considered supernatural and religion explains what science hasn't explained yet. Neither science or religion has yet to explain everything though each tries to do so from their own perspective. Each isn't the absolute truth and I fail to see why they need to conflict with each other unless a person refuses to consider concepts outside the box. 

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RE: Is belief......? - 6/1/2009 10:35:48 AM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

ORIGINAL: blacksword404

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

Then all of a sudden the Sumerians pop up practically with all the knowledge. They are the first in everything.


They'd have to share credit with ancient India and China, at the very least.



Maybe so. It should be interesting to see what we find out in the next 20 to 30 years.

That's what people were saying 20 and 30 years ago, blacksword.

We just wore bell-bottoms then.

Same story, different day.

Welcome to the redawning of the Age of Aquarius. Or the rehashing of old sci-fi ideas presented as history. Or the end of days. Or the rapture. Or whatever version of this centuries old fantasy comes around next.








< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 6/1/2009 10:44:35 AM >

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RE: Is belief......? - 6/1/2009 10:41:47 AM   
Arpig


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A little further reading up, and the following has come up, the Summerians were not even the first to practice irrigation agriulture in their region (That was the Samara culture 5700 – 4900 BC). What the Summerians were was the first in that region to practice large scale irrigation agriculture. They were not the first to develop cities, there are several cities which pre-date the Summerians (Jericho being one). The Indus civilisation arose at approximatly the same time as that of the Summerians (roughly 5500 BCE), so to say that one created the other is illogical, and also not supported by any evidence.
In conclusion, there is no one source of civilisation, it arose idnependantly in several differnt place, at different times.

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RE: Is belief......? - 6/1/2009 10:43:18 AM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

ORIGINAL: beargonewild

How I see this is supernatural beliefs try to explain the unexplainable. Science evolved to explain much of what was considered supernatural and religion explains what science hasn't explained yet. Neither science or religion has yet to explain everything though each tries to do so from their own perspective. Each isn't the absolute truth and I fail to see why they need to conflict with each other unless a person refuses to consider concepts outside the box. 


Perhaps of interest here, all--

A Few Kind Words for Superstition
by Robertson Davies

In grave discussions of "the renaissance of the irrational" in our time, superstition does not figure largely as a serious challenge to reason or science. Parapsychology, UFOs, miracle cures, transcendental meditation and all the paths to instant enlightenment are condemned, but superstition is merely deplored. Is it because it has an unacknowledged hold on many of us?

Few people will admit to being superstitious; it implies naiveté or ignorance. But I live in the middle of a large university, and I see superstition in its four manifestations, alive and flourishing among people who are indisputably rational and learned.

You did not know that superstition takes four forms? Theologians assure us that it does. First is what they call Vain Observances, such as not walking under a ladder, and that kind of thing. Yet I saw a deeply learned professor of anthropology, who had spilled some salt, throwing a pinch of it over his left shoulder; when I asked him why, he replied, with a wink, that it was "to hit the Devil in the eye." I did not question him further about his belief in the Devil: but I noticed that he did not smile until I asked him what he was doing.

The second form is Divination, or consulting oracles. Another learned professor I know, who would scorn to settle a problem by tossing a coin (which is a humble appeal to Fate to declare itself), told me quite seriously that he had resolved a matter related to university affairs by consulting the I Ching. And why not? There are thousands of people on this continent who appeal to the I Ching, and their general level of education seems to absolve them of superstition. Almost, but not quite. The I Ching, to the embarrassment of rationalists, often gives excellent advice.

The third form is Idolatry, and universities can show plenty of that. If you have ever supervised a large examination room, you know how many jujus, lucky coins and other bringers of luck are placed on the desks of the candidates. Modest idolatry, but what else can you call it?

The fourth form is Improper Worship of the True God. A while ago, I learned that every day, for several days, a $2 bill (in Canada we have $2 bills, regarded by some people as unlucky) had been tucked under a candlestick on the altar of a college chapel. Investigation revealed that an engineering student, worried about a girl, thought that bribery of the Deity might help. When I talked with him, he did not think he was pricing God cheap, because he could afford no more. A reasonable argument, but perhaps God was proud that week, for the scientific oracle went against him.

Superstition seems to run, a submerged river of crude religion, below the surface of human consciousness. It has done so for as long as we have any chronicle of human behavior, and although I cannot prove it, I doubt if it is more prevalent today than it has always been. Superstition, the theologians tell us, comes from the Latin supersisto, meaning to stand in terror of the Deity. Most people keep their terror within bounds, but they cannot root it out, nor do they seem to want to do so.

The more the teaching of formal religion declines, or takes a sociological form, the less God appears to great numbers of people as a God of Love, resuming his older form of a watchful, minatory power, to be placated and cajoled. Superstition makes its appearance, apparently unbidden, very early in life, when children fear that stepping on cracks in the sidewalk will bring ill fortune. It may persist even among the greatly learned and devout, as in the case of Dr. Samuel Johnson, who felt it necessary to touch posts that he passed in the street. The psychoanalysts have their explanation, but calling a superstition a compulsion neurosis does not banish it.

Many superstitions are so widespread and so old that they must have risen from a depth of the human mind that is indifferent to race or creed. Orthodox Jews place a charm on their doorposts; so do (or did) the Chinese. Some people of Middle Europe believe that when a man sneezes, his soul, for that moment, is absent from his body, and they hasten to bless him, lest the soul be seized by the Devil. How did the Melanesians come by the same idea? Superstition seems to have a link with some body of belief that far antedates the religions we know--religions which have no place for such comforting little ceremonies and charities.

People who like disagreeable historical comparisons recall that when Rome was in decline, superstition proliferated wildly, and that something of the same sort is happening in our Western world today. They point to the popularity of astrology, and it is true that sober newspapers that would scorn to deal in love philters carry astrology columns and the fashion magazines count them among their most popular features. But when has astrology not been popular? No use saying science discredits it. When has the heart of man given a damn for science?

Superstition in general is linked to man's yearning to know his fate, and to have some hand in deciding it. When my mother was a child, she innocently joined her Roman Catholic friends in killing spiders on July 11, until she learned that this was done to ensure heavy rain the day following, the anniversary of the Battle of Boyne, when the Orangemen would hold their parade. I knew an Italian, a good scientist, who watched every morning before leaving his house, so that the first person he met would not be a priest or a nun, as this would certainly bring bad luck.

I am not one to stand aloof from the rest of humanity in this matter, for when I was a university student, a gypsy woman with a child in her arms used to appear every year at examination time, and ask a shilling of anyone who touched the Lucky Baby; that swarthy infant cost me four shillings altogether, and I never failed an examination. Of course, I did it merely for the joke--or so I thought then. Now, I am humbler.

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RE: Is belief......? - 6/1/2009 12:04:08 PM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

.......what is it with you and the Sumerians? Did they have gene therapy? Plastics? Computers?  Electricity generating capacity? Did they split the atom? Plastic surgery? Lasers?

i'm pretty sure they didn't know everything.........


They didnt even have the first Cities. Damascus is older.

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RE: Is belief......? - 6/1/2009 12:13:49 PM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Apocalypso 

Biblical literalism is a minority belief among Christianity.  It's not shared by any of the main churches.



Really ? The Catholic Church wont allow any belief other than Adam and Eve. That sounds like a literal translation that everyone stems from the same two people to me.

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