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Yikes! I think the honeymoon is over. - 6/2/2009 7:45:17 PM

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       Let me start here by saying that while I regularly read Ted Rall's column, I mostly disagree with him. Today is no different, but this might be the harshest criticism of Pres. Obama I have seen from the left.

     With Democrats Like Him, Who Needs Dictators?

        I've noted from early on that our President seems very willing to chuck his promises, and the base of support that needed those promises, right under the proverbial bus. Some would call it 'triangulation,' and governing from the pragmatic center, but I don't see it. Just because he got a clue about what it will take to get out of Iraq, doesn't mean the right is going to be ok with his spending plans. He isn't gaining any ground with them.

     Can President Obama win back these desperately needed supporters who are feeling betrayed?



< Message edited by TheHeretic -- 6/2/2009 7:46:29 PM >

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RE: Yikes! I think the honeymoon is over. - 6/2/2009 7:53:20 PM

Arpig

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I must admit that he seems somewhat disappointing lately. The mere idea of preventative detention is counter to all that we in the west are supposed to stand for.

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RE: Yikes! I think the honeymoon is over. - 6/2/2009 7:57:24 PM

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preventative detention?
wow... so what about sex offenders who are too dangerous to be put out in public, and are held on "mental health" orders.
is it okay or not okay to hold those people, knowing that they are dangerous to society.
they have served their time, and are being held "unjustly" after their sentences are finished.
is that okay or not okay?

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RE: Yikes! I think the honeymoon is over. - 6/2/2009 8:10:49 PM

MzMia

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President Obama has not been in office 6 months yet.
Rich, I thought that article was a tad harsh, but I enjoyed Bush bashing {he really was one of the worse President's ever}, soooooooo I can take it.

He is beginning to show his cards, but I think he likes to keep his cards close to him.
I still say give him a chance, he really has not made any big mistakes and I think he prefers
to move in a very well thought out, detailed manner.
I think in the next 3-6 months we will start to see the real Barry Obama.

< Message edited by MzMia -- 6/2/2009 8:16:24 PM >

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RE: Yikes! I think the honeymoon is over. - 6/2/2009 8:14:59 PM

Arpig

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quote:

preventative detention?
wow... so what about sex offenders who are too dangerous to be put out in public, and are held on "mental health" orders.
is it okay or not okay to hold those people, knowing that they are dangerous to society.
they have served their time, and are being held "unjustly" after their sentences are finished.
is that okay or not okay?

I think that it is "not okay". However the two are not even closely related. Preventative detention involves locking up somebody before they have done anything, imprisoning them merely on the suspicion that they may do something.

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RE: Yikes! I think the honeymoon is over. - 6/2/2009 8:17:34 PM

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Wow. I had a really hard time reading Rall's article, and a link to an explanatory article would have helped.

I'm really shocked. One of the major stains of the Bush legacy was his desire to subvert our justice system in the name of "fighting terrorists". I am having a hard time swallowing that Obama may follow in Bush's footsteps yet.

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RE: Yikes! I think the honeymoon is over. - 6/2/2009 8:19:53 PM

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if these people have "done nothing" why are they locked up? have they "done nothing", or have they not been tried for what they've done.

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RE: Yikes! I think the honeymoon is over. - 6/2/2009 8:24:53 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MissSepphora1

if these people have "done nothing" why are they locked up? have they "done nothing", or have they not been tried for what they've done.

MS, you are missing the point. Obama has proposed a new doctrine under which citizens and noncitizens may be imprisoned based on suspicion alone. They do not need to have done anything - they may be locked up due to suspicion of wanting to do something.

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RE: Yikes! I think the honeymoon is over. - 6/2/2009 8:26:21 PM

Arpig

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quote:

if these people have "done nothing" why are they locked up? have they "done nothing", or have they not been tried for what they've done.

Unless I have totally misunderstood the consept of preventative detention, no they have done nothing, the detention is to prevent them from doing anything. I believe this is different than a charge of conspiracy, otherwise why even be mentioning it, as conspiracy laws are a well established part of the US justice system.

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RE: Yikes! I think the honeymoon is over. - 6/2/2009 8:49:47 PM

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Our splendiforous far left media failed to vet the guy. There were flashing red and orange neon signs pointing to the fact that Obama (a mere Jr. Senator) was nowhere near presidential material, and everyone on the left said his lack of experience was his prime qualifier...

So yeah. We got a pig in a poke and we're just now beginning to discover who this buffoon really is. But no one can ever say I didn't try to warn them... not that there is really a bright side to this mess though. Because really, there's not.

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RE: Yikes! I think the honeymoon is over. - 6/2/2009 9:16:02 PM

ThatDamnedPanda

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

Our splendiforous far left media failed to vet the guy. There were flashing red and orange neon signs pointing to the fact that Obama (a mere Jr. Senator) was nowhere near presidential material, and everyone on the left said his lack of experience was his prime qualifier...

So yeah. We got a pig in a poke and we're just now beginning to discover who this buffoon really is. But no one can ever say I didn't try to warn them... not that there is really a bright side to this mess though. Because really, there's not.

Well, yeah. There is. The bright side is we didn't elect that doddering, badly-fossilized, two-faced fraud who had been John McCain in a previous life.

I've had reservations about Obama all along, and am just as appalled and disgusted as you are at this disgraceful travesty, but what choice did we have last fall? After 8 years of President Adolph Gump this country was totally, 100%, Grade-A fucked, and if we'd been insane enough to hire McCain to take us even further down the same road, we'd all be in soup lines and carrying our complete worldly possessions on the end of bindle-sticks slung over our shoulders already. As bad as Obama may be, he's still the lesser of the two evils. Although I will admit that's a horrendously difficult argument even for me to believe under the circumstances of this particular topic.

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RE: Yikes! I think the honeymoon is over. - 6/2/2009 9:25:20 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

a link to an explanatory article would have helped.

Sure thing, Steve...

http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2009/05/22/preventive_detention/

Some of the implications are rather troubling (to say the least).

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RE: Yikes! I think the honeymoon is over. - 6/2/2009 9:29:11 PM

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You're missing the point. Had the media properly vetted Barack Obama we would have had a different choice than Obama vs. McCain.

The argument could even be made that McCain was the media's darling, but that may be a different thread.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

Our splendiforous far left media failed to vet the guy. There were flashing red and orange neon signs pointing to the fact that Obama (a mere Jr. Senator) was nowhere near presidential material, and everyone on the left said his lack of experience was his prime qualifier...

So yeah. We got a pig in a poke and we're just now beginning to discover who this buffoon really is. But no one can ever say I didn't try to warn them... not that there is really a bright side to this mess though. Because really, there's not.

Well, yeah. There is. The bright side is we didn't elect that doddering, badly-fossilized, two-faced fraud who had been John McCain in a previous life.

I've had reservations about Obama all along, and am just as appalled and disgusted as you are at this disgraceful travesty, but what choice did we have last fall? After 8 years of President Adolph Gump this country was totally, 100%, Grade-A fucked, and if we'd been insane enough to hire McCain to take us even further down the same road, we'd all be in soup lines and carrying our complete worldly possessions on the end of bindle-sticks slung over our shoulders already. As bad as Obama may be, he's still the lesser of the two evils. Although I will admit that's a horrendously difficult argument even for me to believe under the circumstances of this particular topic.

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RE: Yikes! I think the honeymoon is over. - 6/2/2009 9:30:58 PM

ThatDamnedPanda

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

      Let me start here by saying that while I regularly read Ted Rall's column, I mostly disagree with him. Today is no different, but this might be the harshest criticism of Pres. Obama I have seen from the left.

    With Democrats Like Him, Who Needs Dictators?

        I've noted from early on that our President seems very willing to chuck his promises, and the base of support that needed those promises, right under the proverbial bus. Some would call it 'triangulation,' and governing from the pragmatic center, but I don't see it. Just because he got a clue about what it will take to get out of Iraq, doesn't mean the right is going to be ok with his spending plans. He isn't gaining any ground with them.

    Can President Obama win back these desperately needed supporters who are feeling betrayed?

I think Rall may be overstating the matter, but... frankly... not by much. I want to read this bill a lot more carefully, and listen to the opinions of people who understand the law a lot better than I do, before I really decide how i feel about this, but... right now... I'm as close as i ever was to feeling like it was time to leave this country once and for all. This is not the America in which i was born, and I voted for Obama because I thought he was the last and only chance to take it back in the right direction. If my early impressions of this bill are correct, he in fact is just taking us even further down the same road the Bushers did. This alone could be enough to make me give up all hope that this country can ever again stand for what it was intended to represent.

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RE: Yikes! I think the honeymoon is over. - 6/2/2009 9:38:38 PM

ThatDamnedPanda

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

You're missing the point. Had the media properly vetted Barack Obama we would have had a different choice than Obama vs. McCain.

The argument could even be made that McCain was the media's darling, but that may be a different thread.

Ah. You're right. I'm sorry, I did miss your point.

But still, where would that have left us? Hillary? Christ, I'd have emigrated to Ontario by around noon on November 5th.

I don't know if there even were any good choices last year, no matter how thoroughly the press vetted the candidates. Certainly none from the republican party, and if Obama hadn't come along to derail her, nothing was going to knock Hillary off the track to the democratic nomination. As far as the most immediately urgent situation our country faced last fall is concerned, I don't think there was another candidate besides Obama who wouldn't have just made the economy instantly worse.

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RE: Yikes! I think the honeymoon is over. - 6/2/2009 9:42:44 PM

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I agree with much of that, and it's sad. I am looking at somewhere else to move to myself, when it's finally just me here in a few years. If what I have now is worth anything then...

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RE: Yikes! I think the honeymoon is over. - 6/2/2009 10:20:29 PM

ThatDamnedPanda

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

I agree with much of that, and it's sad. I am looking at somewhere else to move to myself, when it's finally just me here in a few years. If what I have now is worth anything then...

Pretty sobering state of affairs, isn't it? When someone as conservative as you seem to be, and someone as liberal as I am, both agree that the country may be so far removed from what it used to stand for, they don't know if they can stomach living here anymore? Worth reflecting upon, I think.

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RE: Yikes! I think the honeymoon is over. - 6/3/2009 3:39:50 AM

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quote:

I want to read this bill a lot more carefully

Am I the only one that can't actually find this 'bill' that people are talking about? Has it even been written yet? I read the presidents speech, I do know the process for a bill becoming a law and for the life of me, I'm stumped. The oversight for such things is in 'our' hands so if you have a problem with the 'bill', write your reps and insist they vote no. If you don't want to leave this country, then do your damn job and make sure that your voice is heard and you keep an eye on all the wily bastards out there.

Or, yeah, if you want to leave, don't let the door hit yer ass on the way out. That works, too.

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RE: Yikes! I think the honeymoon is over. - 6/3/2009 3:53:28 AM

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I actually think he's doing rather well for a president with zero funds to use. His words are very pretty and we can still afford to fly Air Force One wherever he has to go.

Maybe if we didn't recklessly spend the family nest egg, we could afford to put the kids through college and give sick little Timmy medicine.

Oh well.

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RE: Yikes! I think the honeymoon is over. - 6/3/2009 5:06:12 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig

I think that it is "not okay". However the two are not even closely related. Preventative detention involves locking up somebody before they have done anything, imprisoning them merely on the suspicion that they may do something.

So you think these guys are all from coffee shops over there. They where having a nice cup of coffee and are grabbed up by those evil Americans and taken to be abused for the amusement of our people in uniform.. oh wow and here I thought they where trying to kill our people on a battle field...

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