RE: Athiest nations are more peaceful? (Full Version)

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DavanKael -> RE: Athiest nations are more peaceful? (6/4/2009 11:29:01 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: DavanKael

While one of the comments after the article hit the nail on the head with: "correlation doesn't equal causation", the article still made me chuckle.  Thanks, MsFlutter!  :>
Davan

Reread the article. The author never makes a causitive claim. However the numbers presented, and I haven't reviewed them in full so I assume the bloggers honesty, are correlative beyond any reasonable statistical variation. IOW based on that data nations with more atheists and less people that attend religious services regularly are more peaceful and nations with the opposite condition are more violent.


Um, no.  You're in error regarding your assumption of what I meant. 
  Davan
(Who's far more capable of verbal masturbation than most folks but isn't going to take derisive crap from some dude she does not know on CM)



DomKen -> RE: Athiest nations are more peaceful? (6/4/2009 11:34:33 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DavanKael

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: DavanKael

While one of the comments after the article hit the nail on the head with: "correlation doesn't equal causation", the article still made me chuckle.  Thanks, MsFlutter!  :>
Davan

Reread the article. The author never makes a causitive claim. However the numbers presented, and I haven't reviewed them in full so I assume the bloggers honesty, are correlative beyond any reasonable statistical variation. IOW based on that data nations with more atheists and less people that attend religious services regularly are more peaceful and nations with the opposite condition are more violent.


Um, no.  You're in error regarding your assumption of what I meant. 
  Davan
(Who's far more capable of verbal masturbation than most folks but isn't going to take derisive crap from some dude she does not know on CM)

You supported the commenters claim about correlation and causation. I pointed out that the article makes no causative claims but makes a statistically irrefutable correlation.



xBullx -> RE: Athiest nations are more peaceful? (6/4/2009 11:40:10 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

The problem with this of course - not mentioned in the comments to the article as far as I read, is that when the shells start falling and the bullets are flying, there aint a single atheist to be found.

No wonder then that the religious are more often at war.

E

Bull. I was an atheist throughout my military service even while being shot at.



You rang?


Or were you simply taking my name in vain?



xBullx -> RE: Athiest nations are more peaceful? (6/4/2009 11:42:49 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Asherdelampyr
Humans are predatory and will find any reason to fight.


BINGO............... now put some fuckin' clothes on!



LadyEllen -> RE: Athiest nations are more peaceful? (6/4/2009 11:50:53 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

(crikey there's a lot of people taking this stuff seriously; almost as if the article had any merit)

E

Merit? Meaning...what? They fabricated the statistics?

Would it feel better to pretend they did...or to pretend that you can just safely hide behind inference of the statistics?



Are you spoiling for a fight or something?

So much for peace loving atheists

E



Musicmystery -> RE: Athiest nations are more peaceful? (6/4/2009 11:56:16 AM)

Actually, this is an interesting study in Collarme posting. Look how quickly the discussion moved from the original point to misunderstandings about misunderstandings about posters' presumed points, thoughts, and intent. The whole mess moved rapidly to merely subjective territory, while still clinging to an imaginary veneer of logical objectivity.

From what substance the article did offer, to banter about smoke, complete with growing ire.

Predictable as it is puzzling. Indeed, people like to argue--especially about God, violence, and national politics.

As this, by Collarme standards, is a tame discussion.

[;)]



Asherdelampyr -> RE: Athiest nations are more peaceful? (6/4/2009 11:59:45 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: xBullx

quote:

ORIGINAL: Asherdelampyr
Humans are predatory and will find any reason to fight.


BINGO............... now put some fuckin' clothes on!


You gonna come and fight about it? :P
couldnt help it



NihilusZero -> RE: Athiest nations are more peaceful? (6/4/2009 12:05:19 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

Are you spoiling for a fight or something?

So much for peace loving atheists

E

I don't think we'd be brandishing our nearest weapon and declaring a nobility war against you...but we can be fiercely argumentative when it comes to getting to the clarity of a situation.

Peace doesn't mean you don't debate your points with strong sensibility and evidence...it just means you don't go and stab someone because of  it.



NihilusZero -> RE: Athiest nations are more peaceful? (6/4/2009 12:06:33 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Actually, this is an interesting study in Collarme posting. Look how quickly the discussion moved from the original point to misunderstandings about misunderstandings about posters' presumed points, thoughts, and intent. The whole mess moved rapidly to merely subjective territory, while still clinging to an imaginary veneer of logical objectivity.

From what substance the article did offer, to banter about smoke, complete with growing ire.

Predictable as it is puzzling. Indeed, people like to argue--especially about God, violence, and national politics.

As this, by Collarme standards, is a tame discussion.

[;)]

Don't make me pull this car over and get out my cat-o-nine-tails!



Musicmystery -> RE: Athiest nations are more peaceful? (6/4/2009 12:12:26 PM)

You and whose army, atheist boy?!

[:D]




awmslave -> RE: Athiest nations are more peaceful? (6/4/2009 12:15:28 PM)

We are talking about secular countries. As much as I know, atheism was an official religion in communist countries (I consider atheism a religion). How peaceful country was Soviet Union?



NihilusZero -> RE: Athiest nations are more peaceful? (6/4/2009 12:19:49 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: awmslave

We are talking about secular countries. As much as I know, atheism was an official religion in communist countries (I consider atheism a religion). How peaceful country was Soviet Union?

Atheism isn't a religion. There are no tenets. There is no moral construct to it.



Musicmystery -> RE: Athiest nations are more peaceful? (6/4/2009 12:23:50 PM)

Here's the problem.

How is NOT believing in something a religion, let alone a state religion?

Which religion is not believing in fairies? Or monsters under the bed?

Or any of the THOUSANDS of religions that have come and gone since ancient times (H. L. Mencken wrote a great piece about this once--maybe someone with time can find a link)? Are we a specific religion because we don't believe in those gods, or those supernatural speculations about our world?

Of course not. People define themselves by what they DO believe, not by what they don't. Atheism as a term is only relevant because people who do believe in God feel it's necessary to distinguish the non-believers.

Those non-believers, however, don't go about deciding what to do based on what they don't think.

[8|]






awmslave -> RE: Athiest nations are more peaceful? (6/4/2009 12:34:21 PM)

quote:

Atheism isn't a religion. There are no tenets. There is no moral construct to it.


I just referred to a very general approach: atheist claims about reality can be viewed as a theory similar to religious beliefs.  Otherwise, I agree with you: it does not compare with organized religions.



Musicmystery -> RE: Athiest nations are more peaceful? (6/4/2009 12:38:18 PM)

quote:

atheist claims about reality can be viewed as a theory similar to religious beliefs.


No. Those are the views of science, and that scientific reality may exist with or without a God.




DavanKael -> RE: Athiest nations are more peaceful? (6/4/2009 12:42:33 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: DavanKael

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: DavanKael

While one of the comments after the article hit the nail on the head with: "correlation doesn't equal causation", the article still made me chuckle.  Thanks, MsFlutter!  :>
Davan

Reread the article. The author never makes a causitive claim. However the numbers presented, and I haven't reviewed them in full so I assume the bloggers honesty, are correlative beyond any reasonable statistical variation. IOW based on that data nations with more atheists and less people that attend religious services regularly are more peaceful and nations with the opposite condition are more violent.


Um, no.  You're in error regarding your assumption of what I meant. 
Davan
(Who's far more capable of verbal masturbation than most folks but isn't going to take derisive crap from some dude she does not know on CM)

You supported the commenters claim about correlation and causation. I pointed out that the article makes no causative claims but makes a statistically irrefutable correlation.


I'm going to refer you to what NZ said on page 1 regarding your statement in response to mine.  Also, I specifically take issue with your presuming to direct me. 
  Davan 



awmslave -> RE: Athiest nations are more peaceful? (6/4/2009 12:52:44 PM)

quote:

No. Those are the views of science, and that scientific reality may exist with or without a God.


I disagree: there is no such a thing as "scientific reality". The question is if higher level of consciousness (relative to human) exists. Atheist says no. Religions say yes. Scientists are looking into the matter, there could be or not.



Musicmystery -> RE: Athiest nations are more peaceful? (6/4/2009 12:54:33 PM)

quote:

Scientists are looking into the matter


No, they aren't--it's not a scientific question, because it's not an observable/testable phenomenon.

quote:

there is no such a thing as "scientific reality"


What happens to apples over there when you drop them?

Here, they reliably fall.

This is a silly claim. Science takes observations, forms hypotheses, tests them, and if they hold true consistently, can be reliably used to make predictions and to further expand the inquiry. To say "There is no scientific reality" is to deny this process happens while it quite clearly does.

To make such a claim while taking advantage of the practical uses to which science has put its discoveries about electricity renders this "debate" to the pointless bin where it belongs.

Or perhaps, your Internet service has God flash the messages on your screen?

...as well as keep your apples from flying off the table.

My neighbor's horse has no views about the existence of God and has no knowledge of science. But it knows where to find the apples, every time.

That's reality--straight from the horse's mouth.




DomKen -> RE: Athiest nations are more peaceful? (6/4/2009 12:55:56 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DavanKael
I'm going to refer you to what NZ said on page 1 regarding your statement in response to mine.  Also, I specifically take issue with your presuming to direct me. 
  Davan 

Take issue all you want but since NZ made a nonsensical statement showing an insurmountable misunderstanding of causation and correlation I let it lie since the post he responded to showed that no causative claim was made nor was any causitive claim possible from the data supplied.

If you have a point to make try and make it instead of trying to play around with sophistry and vague comments which you aren't doing very well.



Kirata -> RE: Athiest nations are more peaceful? (6/4/2009 1:05:52 PM)


~ FR ~

The elephant in the room here is the unreported (but likely to be large) number of people who hold some kind of religious or spiritual belief but who do not attend any kind of organized services on a regular basis.

K.






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