RE: Athiest nations are more peaceful?

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LadyEllen -> RE: Athiest nations are more peaceful? (6/4/2009 1:29:57 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Kirata ~ FR ~ The elephant in the room here is the unreported (but likely to be large) number of people who hold some kind of religious or spiritual belief but who do not attend any kind of organized services on a regular basis. K. Indeed; and the huge numbers who record themselves as Christian on a census form but only because they arent any of the other options. Certainly a widespread phenomenon in the UK and possibly around the former Empire too. E

Musicmystery -> RE: Athiest nations are more peaceful? (6/4/2009 1:36:43 PM)
Also agreed. The article is a data snapshot and a speculation. The author needs to further investigate before establishing any claim.

NihilusZero -> RE: Athiest nations are more peaceful? (6/4/2009 2:10:25 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: awmslave I disagree: there is no such a thing as "scientific reality". What do you suppose you are living in? quote: ORIGINAL: awmslave The question is if higher level of consciousness (relative to human) exists. Atheist says no. Religions say yes. Scientists are looking into the matter, there could be or not. No reputable scientist is looking into this. There is no valid reason to suppose this imaginative conjecture.

CruelNUnsual -> RE: Athiest nations are more peaceful? (6/4/2009 2:20:10 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NihilusZero quote: ORIGINAL: LadyEllen (crikey there's a lot of people taking this stuff seriously; almost as if the article had any merit) E Merit? Meaning...what? They fabricated the statistics? The comments to the article do a decent job of explaining why the statistics are misleading as presented. the silliest one is the first graph that shows a whopping 8% to 2% difference between atheists in peaceful vs violent countries, as if 8% of the population is of any significance in how a country comports itself. Then get to questionable definitions of what does or doesnt constitute a violent country, and the vast population differences between countries, and the entire premise of the statistics is shot to hell.

NihilusZero -> RE: Athiest nations are more peaceful? (6/4/2009 2:24:03 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen Take issue all you want but since NZ made a nonsensical statement showing an insurmountable misunderstanding of causation and correlation I let it lie since the post he responded to showed that no causative claim was made nor was any causitive claim possible from the data supplied. Do you understand the difference between causation through evidentiary statistics and causation through implementation? What causative premise are you arguing is not being made a case for? The study lies only on the presentation of the presence of a greater secular populace leading to a greater percentage chance for being a peaceful nation. It's already plain that it's causative by effect. Whether it's causation by implementation (say, the mass transferring of secular groups to a religiously populated country with the purpose of seeing the geo-cultural changes) is an entirely different question. And, then, even further than that, is the inference that secularism directly causes greater individual propensity to peacefulness (which I suspect is what you're deferring to when decrying non-causation), which obviously is not argued by the index.

NihilusZero -> RE: Athiest nations are more peaceful? (6/4/2009 2:32:31 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CruelNUnsual The comments to the article do a decent job of explaining why the statistics are misleading as presented. the silliest one is the first graph that shows a whopping 8% to 2% difference between atheists in peaceful vs violent countries, as if 8% of the population is of any significance in how a country comports itself. Fair point. But the tallying of specifically atheists was just one facet that they made in determining the degree of secularization of the nation as a whole. quote: ORIGINAL: CruelNUnsual Then get to questionable definitions of what does or doesnt constitute a violent country, and the vast population differences between countries, and the entire premise of the statistics is shot to hell. Well, to avoid a semantic argument over that, they described what they factored: quote: The index was collated by the Economist Intelligence Unit for a new thinktank called the Institute for Economics and Peace. It uses a weighted mix of 23 criteria, including foreign wars, internal conflicts, respect for human rights, the number of murders, the number of people in jail, the arms trade, and degrees of democracy. And...the point I'm trying to make is that it's already made clear (if just from the study itself) that it made no premise other than what the statistics showed...one which is proven by the numbers. Does it unilaterally mean religiousness = violence? Obviously not. Does it even mean that the direct introduction of greater secularism to a country will yield a more peaceful outcome? No. The study seemed to take great care not to make unnecessary inferences but many people are arguing against it as if it did.

OrionTheWolf -> RE: Athiest nations are more peaceful? (6/4/2009 2:41:54 PM)
"There is no god" Is that a Buddhist saying? ;) There need not be a deity involved to have a set of ideas that are based in faith and belief. As to the OP: I can see the correlation, as most religions involve a certain amount of passion about their belief. This passion can be tapped, to go in other directions. Basic human behavior in my opinion. I am not sure what all of the disagreement is about. quote: ORIGINAL: Musicmystery quote: atheist claims about reality can be viewed as a theory similar to religious beliefs. No. Those are the views of science, and that scientific reality may exist with or without a God.

NihilusZero -> RE: Athiest nations are more peaceful? (6/4/2009 2:43:06 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf As to the OP: I can see the correlation, as most religions involve a certain amount of passion about their belief. This passion can be tapped, to go in other directions. Basic human behavior in my opinion. I am not sure what all of the disagreement is about. 25 points.

DomKen -> RE: Athiest nations are more peaceful? (6/4/2009 2:43:33 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NihilusZero quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen Take issue all you want but since NZ made a nonsensical statement showing an insurmountable misunderstanding of causation and correlation I let it lie since the post he responded to showed that no causative claim was made nor was any causitive claim possible from the data supplied. Do you understand the difference between causation through evidentiary statistics and causation through implementation? What causative premise are you arguing is not being made a case for? The study lies only on the presentation of the presence of a greater secular populace leading to a greater percentage chance for being a peaceful nation. It's already plain that it's causative by effect. Whether it's causation by implementation (say, the mass transferring of secular groups to a religiously populated country with the purpose of seeing the geo-cultural changes) is an entirely different question. And, then, even further than that, is the inference that secularism directly causes greater individual propensity to peacefulness (which I suspect is what you're deferring to when decrying non-causation), which obviously is not argued by the index. I'm saying there is no causation argument in the original article. I'm saying that based on the supplied evidence no causation argument can be made. All there is a correlation between two statistics. One could cause the other or vice versa or both could caused by one or more external cuases.

Musicmystery -> RE: Athiest nations are more peaceful? (6/4/2009 2:47:01 PM)
quote: "There is no god" Is that a Buddhist saying? ;) There need not be a deity involved to have a set of ideas that are based in faith and belief. Hi Orion, I agree. But that's not the same as calling atheism, simply not believing in God, a "religion"; i.e., there is no set of ideas that comprise "atheism." Perhaps that's why not all atheists are Buddhists. Or scientists. Live well, Tim

DavanKael -> RE: Athiest nations are more peaceful? (6/4/2009 3:00:38 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen quote: ORIGINAL: DavanKael I'm going to refer you to what NZ said on page 1 regarding your statement in response to mine. Also, I specifically take issue with your presuming to direct me. Davan Take issue all you want but since NZ made a nonsensical statement showing an insurmountable misunderstanding of causation and correlation I let it lie since the post he responded to showed that no causative claim was made nor was any causitive claim possible from the data supplied. If you have a point to make try and make it instead of trying to play around with sophistry and vague comments which you aren't doing very well. Ah, so we've moved from 'do what I say' to 'get in your place' to 'since you won't abide my drivvle, you must be inherently flawed (Or, if your tone is boiled down even more primally: my dick's bigger than yours)' and you passive-aggressively insulted another poster to boot. What, wait, who's not doing very well at maintaining an elevation in their conversation? < ponders my 'bag of goodies' and is sure I can put you to shame > I'm rarely someone who thinks well enough of the statement of an idea and its grasp and throughness to simply say: "What (s)he said." I referenced the page 1 post previously. Now, I'm going to suggest that you reference NZ's post on page 3. Davan

kdsub -> RE: Athiest nations are more peaceful? (6/4/2009 3:29:25 PM)
Now of course not all but ever notice how many of the so-called peace nations never contribute to the world outside their borders. Sort of set back and be useless to their fellow man. Butch

Musicmystery -> RE: Athiest nations are more peaceful? (6/4/2009 3:34:33 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub Now of course not all but ever notice how many of the so-called peace nations never contribute to the world outside their borders. Sort of set back and be useless to their fellow man. Butch A serious look would show this is not the case. And the U.S. contributes only a small fraction to foreign aid, and participates primarily where it feels its national interests lie, not out of philanthropy.

Kirata -> RE: Athiest nations are more peaceful? (6/4/2009 3:45:57 PM)
Nevermind [:D]

MsFlutter -> RE: Athiest nations are more peaceful? (6/4/2009 4:20:36 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Musicmystery ...Or any of the THOUSANDS of religions that have come and gone since ancient times (H. L. Mencken wrote a great piece about this once--maybe someone with time can find a link)? Are we a specific religion because we don't believe in those gods, or those supernatural speculations about our world?... [8\|] *can you narrow it down just a wee* bit? Book? quote? article?**

Musicmystery -> RE: Athiest nations are more peaceful? (6/4/2009 4:58:28 PM)
It was an article.

MissDominae -> RE: Athiest nations are more peaceful? (6/4/2009 5:06:19 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyEllen Indeed; and the huge numbers who record themselves as Christian on a census form but only because they arent any of the other options. Certainly a widespread phenomenon in the UK and possibly around the former Empire too. E I'm pleased to say the Australian part of the former Empire has changed its ways Ellen. In our quartenary National Census, Pagan, Heathen, Wiccan and a host of other smaller non "Book" religions are specifically acknowledged, and there is even a section for 'Other' in which you may place your specific faith - no matter how small in number - and have its numbers collated. Isn't it sad to watch how quickly any thread on religion seems to degenerate? This one seems to have been lost in the debate on methodology more than orthodoxy but still, it is a pity. Blessings ....... Dominae

Musicmystery -> RE: Athiest nations are more peaceful? (6/4/2009 5:12:22 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MsFlutter quote: ORIGINAL: Musicmystery ...Or any of the THOUSANDS of religions that have come and gone since ancient times (H. L. Mencken wrote a great piece about this once--maybe someone with time can find a link)? Are we a specific religion because we don't believe in those gods, or those supernatural speculations about our world?... [8\|] *can you narrow it down just a wee* bit? Book? quote? article?** Found it! H.L. Menchken: Memorial Service

Arpig -> RE: Athiest nations are more peaceful? (6/4/2009 5:49:14 PM)
quote: Found it! H.L. Menchken: Memorial Service Ain't the internet fucking wondeful!![:)]

kdsub -> RE: Athiest nations are more peaceful? (6/4/2009 8:03:39 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Musicmystery quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub Now of course not all but ever notice how many of the so-called peace nations never contribute to the world outside their borders. Sort of set back and be useless to their fellow man. Butch A serious look would show this is not the case. And the U.S. contributes only a small fraction to foreign aid, and participates primarily where it feels its national interests lie, not out of philanthropy. I wasn't talking about philanthropy...but since you brought it up all the sites I can find list the US at the top of private donations to charities…how about you? I was talking about shaping the world…which have contributed more to science…industry…and as far as that goes… important history of the world in the last 100 years. Not most of the countries near the top of this list. Butch

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