RE: the BNP, the UAF and free speech

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RE: the BNP, the UAF and free speech - 6/18/2009 5:18:42 PM

numuncular

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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

quote:

ORIGINAL: numuncular

it'd be a bit like arguing with someone whos just said theres no oxygen in the air.

really you throw something out like we shouldnt have gone to war with hitler, how can I provide a counter argument when all you've done is make an outlandish statement?

I presumed you'd come up with something more substantial than 'mindboggling' - I suppose I'm too generous.

If it helps: from an idealistic point of view we are not the saviours of continental Europe; from a pragmatic and economic point of view it was not a good idea to get involved in a war in order to preserve our empire - we should have followed the tried and tested method of steering clear of contintental disagreements which had proved so successful in the past.

and just let hitler get on with it? as though he'd never covet britain or our navy or bits of the empire? what would be the benefitof having let hitlet just have europe?

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RE: the BNP, the UAF and free speech - 6/18/2009 5:24:37 PM

Politesub53

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quote:

ORIGINAL: numuncular

I'm not sure what you're saying I'm off about... but c18 are not much more than a bogeyman now

The part about football fans. C18 was more than just disgruntled fans unable to fight at matches. At present they are torn by internal problems, as some fo them have turned informers. It would be foolish, in my opinion, to write them off.

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RE: the BNP, the UAF and free speech - 6/19/2009 5:10:00 AM

Apocalypso

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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent
It's nothing to do with 'fair play'. The point is that there's a reason why we have the rule of law in this country: it's so the likes of you and the BNP for that matter don't run 'round like a self-appointed judge and jury deciding who is and isn't acceptable.

The rule of law is a legal concept, not a moral one- it says nothing about whether the law is just or not.

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RE: the BNP, the UAF and free speech - 6/19/2009 11:12:10 AM

Politesub53

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ORIGINAL: Apocalypso

The rule of law is a legal concept, not a moral one- it says nothing about whether the law is just or not.

This is splitting hairs. Moral codes of conduct were the basis of the first laws, as determined by society. The fact unjust laws are brought in by some governments doesnt alter the original concept.

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RE: the BNP, the UAF and free speech - 6/20/2009 3:21:58 AM

NorthernGent

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quote:

ORIGINAL: numuncular

and just let hitler get on with it? as though he'd never covet britain or our navy or bits of the empire? what would be the benefitof having let hitlet just have europe?

With a spot of foresight it would have been clear that Hitler could never 'have Europe' with or without our intervention. He was on collision course with the Soviet Union as the two of them were ideological enemies. That was Hitler's focus: the war in the West was a preemptive strike to avoid a war on two fronts. We should have encouraged them to fight one another to a standstill and kept well out of it.

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RE: the BNP, the UAF and free speech - 6/20/2009 3:23:40 AM

NorthernGent

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Apocalypso

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent
It's nothing to do with 'fair play'. The point is that there's a reason why we have the rule of law in this country: it's so the likes of you and the BNP for that matter don't run 'round like a self-appointed judge and jury deciding who is and isn't acceptable.

The rule of law is a legal concept, not a moral one- it says nothing about whether the law is just or not.

I agree: the law ensures a set of rules to which we must obey and a right of appeal.

What does 'just' have to do with this discussion?

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RE: the BNP, the UAF and free speech - 6/20/2009 12:42:04 PM

numuncular

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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

quote:

ORIGINAL: numuncular

and just let hitler get on with it? as though he'd never covet britain or our navy or bits of the empire? what would be the benefitof having let hitlet just have europe?

With a spot of foresight it would have been clear that Hitler could never 'have Europe' with or without our intervention. He was on collision course with the Soviet Union as the two of them were ideological enemies. That was Hitler's focus: the war in the West was a preemptive strike to avoid a war on two fronts. We should have encouraged them to fight one another to a standstill and kept well out of it.

great point, after all its not as though the germans behaved badly in the places they occupied was it?
really an absurdly callous viewpoint based entirely on the supposition that germany and russian would have gone to war in the first place.

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RE: the BNP, the UAF and free speech - 6/21/2009 4:32:27 PM

LadyEllen

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NG is right on this however; nazi ambitions comprised principally the acquisition of Lebensraum to the east, and views towards the British Empire were ones of admiration alongside a desire to live peacefully alongside it, operated as it was by "aryans".

Britain went to war having guaranteed Poland alongside France, which was far more bellicose towards the nazis as it had been towards all German power for close on a century by the mid 20th century. Without the entente between France and Britain, it is extremely unlikely Britain should have been involved at all, especially after the experience of just two decades prior and especially considering the unreadiness of Britain for such modern warfare (rather than colonial skirmishes) on such a scale following the demilitarisation following that experience; the view of the time was "thank God for the French army", considered far too large and capable for the Germans to take on and providing backbone to Britain too to threaten a war which it never wished to or thought it would have to undertake on the strength of that gambit.

It is easy to look back now and think it a moral war, knowing what we know transpired over those years. To do so however is not only incorrect, but also to ignore the strong fascist movement within Britain and the admiration then present for "Mr Hitler" and the kind of society Britain then comprised - differing in its racism only in expression from the less reticent nazis.

E

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