Innocent man released from Gitmo after 7 and 1/2 years (Full Version)

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KaineD -> Innocent man released from Gitmo after 7 and 1/2 years (6/10/2009 12:03:13 AM)

I'd love to get some views on this from people that support or used to support Gitmo.

Seriously, what's happened to this man is pretty much the exact reason why the US states its fighting terror. Reading about this is like reading about a tyrant nation. Keeping someone locked up for years even though they were ordered to be released in court and torturing them?

For those that support or used to support Gitmo, did you think this wouldn't happen? That your guys are just so damn good that only the guilty would go to Gitmo, and only those with useful information would be tortured?

Anyone that says basic human rights should be ignored for the sake of security is an idiot that is ignorant to history, immediately putting themselves in league with some very bad people.




Mezrem -> RE: Innocent man released from Gitmo after 7 and 1/2 years (6/10/2009 3:14:36 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: KaineD

I'd love to get some views on this from people that support or used to support Gitmo.

Seriously, what's happened to this man is pretty much the exact reason why the US states its fighting terror. Reading about this is like reading about a tyrant nation. Keeping someone locked up for years even though they were ordered to be released in court and torturing them?

For those that support or used to support Gitmo, did you think this wouldn't happen? That your guys are just so damn good that only the guilty would go to Gitmo, and only those with useful information would be tortured?

Anyone that says basic human rights should be ignored for the sake of security is an idiot that is ignorant to history, immediately putting themselves in league with some very bad people.


This was one of the three people who where "tortured"?




MarsBonfire -> RE: Innocent man released from Gitmo after 7 and 1/2 years (6/10/2009 5:21:25 AM)

No, this was some kid who was accused of being a clerk for AQ... He was scooped up in the days after the 9-11 attack.

7.5 years... wow, that's more time spent incarcerated than some murderers get under the US justice system.

Still, how are we, the US, going to fight against "axis of evil" countries, if we aren't willing to subvert everything we say we stand for? I mean, these other countries are EVIL... they just grab people off the street and throw them into prison for no reason, and never give them a trial. Some of these "axis of evil" countries even torture the people in their prisons...




Mezrem -> RE: Innocent man released from Gitmo after 7 and 1/2 years (6/10/2009 6:19:16 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MarsBonfire

No, this was some kid who was accused of being a clerk for AQ... He was scooped up in the days after the 9-11 attack.

7.5 years... wow, that's more time spent incarcerated than some murderers get under the US justice system.

Still, how are we, the US, going to fight against "axis of evil" countries, if we aren't willing to subvert everything we say we stand for? I mean, these other countries are EVIL... they just grab people off the street and throw them into prison for no reason, and never give them a trial. Some of these "axis of evil" countries even torture the people in their prisons...


If he was a clerk for AQ then guess what he was in support of terrorism. I admit though that 7.5 years is a long time to wait for a trail, and it should have happened ealier. I would like to point out as well that just beause he was not found guilty does not mean he did not do anything or was being held for no reason. How many times have we all heard of a DA's ase falling through for lack of evidence.

He was not tortured though and do state such is a lie out and out.  As is the statement that he was scooped up days after 9/11/2001 when the organization he was accused of clerked for killed thousands of us. I also hold fast that this man should not have been allowed access to the US civil court system but rather should have been put though a military trail.

As I said above I do believe that these men should be given a trial. If we do not have cause to hold them they should be set free. What I don't care for is the blanket assertion that ALL of these men where tortured. Right or wrong three recieved torture or EITs depending on what side of the fence you are on. We can not change that fact. Did we recieve information we could not under other means and in time enough for the information to be relivent... I don't know and in the end if you don't have the clearance you don't either.

I do find it amazing that after eight years when all of this comes to a head folks on the left are willing to allow thier own to skate through on a pass. They where there some disagreed at times true.. but on some things they where silent or even agreed. Now they forgot.. or they where lied to..





Musicmystery -> RE: Innocent man released from Gitmo after 7 and 1/2 years (6/10/2009 7:05:10 AM)

quote:

I would like to point out as well that just beause he was not found guilty does not mean he did not do anything or was being held for no reason. How many times have we all heard of a DA's ase falling through for lack of evidence.


Where to even start.






Mezrem -> RE: Innocent man released from Gitmo after 7 and 1/2 years (6/10/2009 7:21:02 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

I would like to point out as well that just beause he was not found guilty does not mean he did not do anything or was being held for no reason. How many times have we all heard of a DA's ase falling through for lack of evidence.


Where to even start.





At the point that I agreed he should be given a trial and if not enough is known be allowed to be a free man? It does not change the statement I made however. We don't know if he did or did not do anything.. or I don 't.




LaTigresse -> RE: Innocent man released from Gitmo after 7 and 1/2 years (6/10/2009 8:26:19 AM)

And here are six more I found when I googled.....

www.associatedcontent.com/article/208823/innocent_man_released_from_prison_after.html

http://www.the-spark.net/np673601.html

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/03/06/60minutes/main3914719.shtml

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/09/21/world/americas/21iht-prison.2892402.html

http://www.jacksonvillecriminaldefenselawyerblog.com/2009/05/innocent-man-released-after-in.html

http://www.dbharperlaw.com/achievements.html

and I could have continued on giving you link after link. Innocent people are imprisoned all the time.

Tell me what the realistic solution is.




rulemylife -> RE: Innocent man released from Gitmo after 7 and 1/2 years (6/10/2009 11:56:43 AM)

Yes, innocent people are imprisoned all the time, but they are given the benefit of a trial and an appeals process.

They are not just locked up indefinitely under the suspicion of a crime, except for those labeled as enemy combatants.




KaineD -> RE: Innocent man released from Gitmo after 7 and 1/2 years (6/10/2009 11:59:12 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mezrem

This was one of the three people who where "tortured"?


You'd have to be pretty naive to believe only 3 people in Gitmo have been tortured.




KaineD -> RE: Innocent man released from Gitmo after 7 and 1/2 years (6/10/2009 12:00:44 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

Tell me what the realistic solution is.



I hate to be Captain Obvious.  But, y'know, giving these guys a trial would be a good start.




Mezrem -> RE: Innocent man released from Gitmo after 7 and 1/2 years (6/10/2009 12:04:07 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: KaineD

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mezrem

This was one of the three people who where "tortured"?


You'd have to be pretty naive to believe only 3 people in Gitmo have been tortured.


Well offer me proof more then three people where tortured? I will be more then happy to read and source any articals you wish to post up as proof. In the mean while I would have to adivse you take off your political blinders rather then throwing insults.




Mezrem -> RE: Innocent man released from Gitmo after 7 and 1/2 years (6/10/2009 12:06:24 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

Yes, innocent people are imprisoned all the time, but they are given the benefit of a trial and an appeals process.

They are not just locked up indefinitely under the suspicion of a crime, except for those labeled as enemy combatants.



What label should they have been given then? They where not POWs as they where not in a uniform or in the standing army for a country?




KaineD -> RE: Innocent man released from Gitmo after 7 and 1/2 years (6/10/2009 12:16:19 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mezrem

If he was a clerk for AQ then guess what he was in support of terrorism. I admit though that 7.5 years is a long time to wait for a trail, and it should have happened ealier. I would like to point out as well that just beause he was not found guilty does not mean he did not do anything or was being held for no reason. How many times have we all heard of a DA's ase falling through for lack of evidence.

He was not tortured though and do state such is a lie out and out.  As is the statement that he was scooped up days after 9/11/2001 when the organization he was accused of clerked for killed thousands of us. I also hold fast that this man should not have been allowed access to the US civil court system but rather should have been put though a military trail.

As I said above I do believe that these men should be given a trial. If we do not have cause to hold them they should be set free. What I don't care for is the blanket assertion that ALL of these men where tortured. Right or wrong three recieved torture or EITs depending on what side of the fence you are on. We can not change that fact. Did we recieve information we could not under other means and in time enough for the information to be relivent... I don't know and in the end if you don't have the clearance you don't either.

I do find it amazing that after eight years when all of this comes to a head folks on the left are willing to allow thier own to skate through on a pass. They where there some disagreed at times true.. but on some things they where silent or even agreed. Now they forgot.. or they where lied to..



Uh, yeah, not a single scrap of research went into that post.

Firstly, where are you getting this that he was a clerk for AQ?  Lakhdar Boumediene worked for the red crescent, a HUMANITARIAN movement.  It's part of the Red Cross.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Cross

"The International Red Cross and Red Crescent Movement is an international humanitarian movement with approximately 97 million volunteers worldwide[1] which started to protect human life and health, to ensure respect for the human being, and to prevent and alleviate human suffering, without any discrimination based on nationality, race, religious beliefs, class or political opinions."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/05/25/AR2009052502263.html

"Boumediene, who at the time was an aid worker with the Red Crescent, was arrested in Bosnia in October 2001 along with five other Algerians accused of plotting to blow up the U.S. and British embassies in Sarajevo, charges that were later withdrawn."

I mean seriously, where do you get off calling a humanitarian aid worker a terrorist with absolutely no basis?

What's shocking about this case too is that the charges against him were dropped, and then the US military stepped in and threw him in Gitmo anyway.  This man had to win TWO court battles for his freedom.

He has been proven not guilty and released.  He says that he was tortured.  The words of an innocent man can't be ignored.

And the ignorance of this statement...

How many times have we all heard of a DA's ase falling through for lack of evidence.

Yeah, the burden of proof is on the accusers.  And if there is a lack of evidence, the case SHOULD fall through.  That's the very reason we have trials.  Innocent until proven guilty.

What age are you?




KaineD -> RE: Innocent man released from Gitmo after 7 and 1/2 years (6/10/2009 12:26:43 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mezrem

Well offer me proof more then three people where tortured? I will be more then happy to read and source any articals you wish to post up as proof. In the mean while I would have to adivse you take off your political blinders rather then throwing insults.


Says the guy throwing the terrorist label at a man proven innocent through the courts.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/01/13/AR2009011303372.html

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/06/world/americas/06iht-gitmo.1.19117003.html?_r=1

http://www.mcclatchydc.com/227/story/66622.html

http://www.pubrecord.org/torture/928-powell-told-us-tortured-detainees-but-he-failed-to-act.html

http://www.commondreams.org/headline/2009/01/14

http://www.denverpost.com/headlines/ci_12473106

http://www.presstv.ir/detail.aspx?id=96856&sectionid=3510203

The US has a lot to answer for.




Mezrem -> RE: Innocent man released from Gitmo after 7 and 1/2 years (6/10/2009 12:29:40 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: KaineD

Uh, yeah, not a single scrap of research went into that post.

I mean seriously, where do you get off calling a humanitarian aid worker a terrorist with absolutely no basis?

What's shocking about this case too is that the charges against him were dropped, and then the US military stepped in and threw him in Gitmo anyway.  This man had to win TWO court battles for his freedom.

He has been proven not guilty and released.  He says that he was tortured.  The words of an innocent man can't be ignored.

And the ignorance of this statement...

How many times have we all heard of a DA's ase falling through for lack of evidence.

Yeah, the burden of proof is on the accusers.  And if there is a lack of evidence, the case SHOULD fall through.  That's the very reason we have trials.  Innocent until proven guilty.

What age are you?



Where do I get to call this man a terrorist..where do you get off saying all the men where tortured. As I said in my posts if he is innocent he SHOULD be set free. You offer up facts FAR from anything in credible reporting sources. I admit I was wrong and should have fact checked who exatly this guy was.. you have me there. I suggest again you take off your political blindersor offer some proof for the lies you have told.

Well hell I say the sky is purple today.. does that make it so? The word of one man is not proof. Yes WE have alot to answer for I don't doubt that at all.. what I do doubt is that this is to blame on one side or the other. As I'm sure neither of us will change our minds on this I believe I will attempt to keep from posting on this thread further.




KaineD -> RE: Innocent man released from Gitmo after 7 and 1/2 years (6/10/2009 12:40:38 PM)

This forum has some of the weakest right wing debaters I've ever seen.

It's like, "Okay, I'm gonna make a bunch of baseless claims.  Dodedo.  Oh look, someone has posted a rebuttal with sources and links and actual logic.  Hey guy, you're a liar, and your sources are not credible, though I will not be more specific than that, and I will ask you to post more proof while refusing to offer any sources of my own.  I will now leave this thread in a huff".

Fine.  Goodbye.




rulemylife -> RE: Innocent man released from Gitmo after 7 and 1/2 years (6/10/2009 12:54:59 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mezrem


What label should they have been given then? They where not POWs as they where not in a uniform or in the standing army for a country?


Criminals, and tried as such if we were accusing them of terrorism.

The whole problem is we don't want to follow our own legal standards. 

We want to be able to hold people indefinitely based on suspicion by using this murky unlawful combatant label which does not give the prisoner the rights entitled to either a POW or an alleged criminal.




LaTigresse -> RE: Innocent man released from Gitmo after 7 and 1/2 years (6/10/2009 1:12:59 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: KaineD

This forum has some of the weakest right wing debaters I've ever seen.

It's like, "Okay, I'm gonna make a bunch of baseless claims.  Dodedo.  Oh look, someone has posted a rebuttal with sources and links and actual logic.  Hey guy, you're a liar, and your sources are not credible, though I will not be more specific than that, and I will ask you to post more proof while refusing to offer any sources of my own.  I will now leave this thread in a huff".

Fine.  Goodbye.


Fine. Goodbye.??? Rather childish reaction don't you think?

And no, I am far from being right wing. My point was not the "why" of the imprisonment or the lack of trial. It was that there are many people unjustly imprisoned for various reasons. Why is this one, more important to you?




KaineD -> RE: Innocent man released from Gitmo after 7 and 1/2 years (6/10/2009 1:24:19 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

Fine. Goodbye.??? Rather childish reaction don't you think?

And no, I am far from being right wing. My point was not the "why" of the imprisonment or the lack of trial. It was that there are many people unjustly imprisoned for various reasons. Why is this one, more important to you?



I was responding to Mezrem.

In answer to your question.  Usually when people are falsely imprisoned, they at least got a trial and a defense.  They could be in prison because of some honest error.

With Guantanamo detainees, they don't even get the basic right to a trial.  They don't get to challange their convictions.  So, if someone who is innocent is locked up there, it is because the entire system of which by Guantanamo is run is faulty.  People should get trials.  People shouldn't get tortured.

Even the Guildford 4 got trials, and that case is considered a huge travesty of justice in the history of Ireland and Britain.




LaTigresse -> RE: Innocent man released from Gitmo after 7 and 1/2 years (6/10/2009 1:59:44 PM)

So it isn't his innocence that is the issue for you. It is the lack of trial and potential torture.




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