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RE: Shooting at Holocaust Museum in D.C. - 6/11/2009 8:04:41 PM

TheHeretic

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Don't knock the clear voices, Firm. They persuaded me that maybe the fundies were more tolerable than I once thought.

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RE: Shooting at Holocaust Museum in D.C. - 6/11/2009 8:49:51 PM

kdsub

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Here in St Louis they had him falsely connected to the Middle East... Others in this thread falsely accused him of being a Christian Terrorist... you have falsely connected him to the right wing of the Republican party... He is none of those things...

He is an isolated... mentally tortured… murderous sociopath…nothing more.

Why must we always feel it is necessary to classify a murderous nutcase to a group?

Butch

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RE: Shooting at Holocaust Museum in D.C. - 6/11/2009 8:58:43 PM

DomKen

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Others in this thread falsely accused him of being a Christian Terrorist... you have falsely connected him to the right wing of the Republican party... He is none of those things...

Based on his own website he is a christian
http://web.archive.org/web/20071015034836/holywesternempire.org/page2.html

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RE: Shooting at Holocaust Museum in D.C. - 6/11/2009 9:31:19 PM

ThatDamnedPanda

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Others in this thread falsely accused him of being a Christian Terrorist... you have falsely connected him to the right wing of the Republican party... He is none of those things...

Based on his own website he is a christian
http://web.archive.org/web/20071015034836/holywesternempire.org/page2.html

Yes, and based on some of the things he says on that website ("This carefully documented treatise exposes the JEWS and explains what you must do to protect your White family") it sounds very much as though he was at least partially motivated by a belief that he was defending his christian beliefs against them damned Joos. Which would make him a - conservative christian terrorist.

< Message edited by ThatDamnedPanda -- 6/11/2009 9:34:27 PM >

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RE: Shooting at Holocaust Museum in D.C. - 6/11/2009 9:35:15 PM

MarsBonfire

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Why link him to a group? Well, if he IS a part of some organized group, it would be good to know who they are, how many of them are around, and what they might be planning. There was a gas attack in Japan's subway system about 15 years ago, and the politicos and the police there passed it off as the work of a "crazed loner." It very quickly became apparent that the first gas attack was a warm up... a bench test, if you will, for the main assault from an "end of the world" cult which had nearly 200 members in Tokyo alone.

Do you really want to make that same mistake here?

Besides, it wasn't me linking him to the republicans, it was DHS. Seems the shooter was a roomie with a radical GOP member who was part of Phyillis Schaffly's staff, and was also chummy with several "white power" GOPers who publish some of the extremist rags that were such an inspiration to the OKC bombers, including Timothy McVey. You know, the usual "Turner Diaries" crap.

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RE: Shooting at Holocaust Museum in D.C. - 6/11/2009 9:40:08 PM

kdsub

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Now... click on the link to his book and read it... then tell me again if he is a Christian... I don't mean he is not acting Christian... I mean read his own words about Christianity.

Butch

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RE: Shooting at Holocaust Museum in D.C. - 6/11/2009 9:52:23 PM

TreasureKY

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quote:

ORIGINAL: slutslave4u

... he is a convicted felon. Therefore by law, by law, he is not allowed to have a firearm.

lol... And of course we all know that criminals obey the law.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Others in this thread falsely accused him of being a Christian Terrorist... you have falsely connected him to the right wing of the Republican party... He is none of those things...

Based on his own website he is a christian
http://web.archive.org/web/20071015034836/holywesternempire.org/page2.html

Oh really now...

Just because someone claims to hold Christian beliefs, doesn't mean that every action they take is done so under the Christian banner or for the advancement of Christianity. Would you label Ted Bundy (who was a Methodist and once very active in his church) a Christian serial killer? How about David Waters (killer of Madalyn Murray O'Hair and her family)... should he be called an Atheist murderer? And we cannot leave out Bernie Madoff... is he a Jewish con artist?

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RE: Shooting at Holocaust Museum in D.C. - 6/11/2009 10:25:12 PM

ThatDamnedPanda

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TreasureKY

Just because someone claims to hold Christian beliefs, doesn't mean that every action they take is done so under the Christian banner or for the advancement of Christianity. Would you label Ted Bundy (who was a Methodist and once very active in his church) a Christian serial killer?

If, instead of pretty young white women, he was killing Jews because he thought they were a threat to what his religious beliefs told him was the way the world ought to be, then yes. I would certainly call him a christian serial killer.

Now, I'm not saying for certain that that's what this week's wacko was doing, because there's a whole lotta investigatin' still needs to be done before we know that for a fact. But at the same time, it's starting to become more and more apparent that this what was motivating him, at least partially. Apparent enough that I'm comfortable right now referring to him as a christian terrorist.

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RE: Shooting at Holocaust Museum in D.C. - 6/11/2009 10:32:24 PM

FirmhandKY

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda
Apparent enough that I'm comfortable right now referring to him as a christian terrorist.

I guess that means that you don't have any problem with the term "Muslim terrorists" then, when a Muslim person kills someone?

Firm

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RE: Shooting at Holocaust Museum in D.C. - 6/11/2009 10:42:46 PM

DomKen

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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda
Apparent enough that I'm comfortable right now referring to him as a christian terrorist.

I guess that means that you don't have any problem with the term "Muslim terrorists" then, when a Muslim person kills someone?

Firm

When they do it because they think it is in support of their faith I'm fine with it. If you prefer we could call Von Brunn a christianist terrorist as some people prefer we refer to islamist terrorists.

I will say that if two muslims with long histories of the same sort of rhetoric as Roeder and Von Brunn had murdered 2 people in 2 weeks I'm confident that the usual suspects on the right would be calling it terrorism and demanding that all their associates get locked up and water boarded under a ticking tomebomb scenario.

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RE: Shooting at Holocaust Museum in D.C. - 6/11/2009 10:47:41 PM

kdsub

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Did anyone read the chapters of his book?... It will quickly clear up the " Is he a Christian" mystery.

No reason to debate something that is false.

Butch

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RE: Shooting at Holocaust Museum in D.C. - 6/11/2009 10:52:55 PM

TheHeretic

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       Well, Ken, I guess we'll just have to wait and see if Abdulhakim Mujahid Muhammed gets some sort of copycat, won't we?

     Or are we going to call him a "right-winger" too?

      Get out towards the extreme edges, where ideology becomes psychosis, words like "left" and "right" don't have much real meaning. Ted Kazcienski (sp?), Jim Jones, Mumia Abu-Jamal... Are these folks "left" in any way you relate to?

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RE: Shooting at Holocaust Museum in D.C. - 6/11/2009 10:54:07 PM

ThatDamnedPanda

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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda
Apparent enough that I'm comfortable right now referring to him as a christian terrorist.

I guess that means that you don't have any problem with the term "Muslim terrorists" then, when a Muslim person kills someone?

Problem? Christ no! I'm surprised; I honestly thought you knew me better than that. A spade's a spade. Calling those ignorant, frothmouthed lunatics muslim terrorists is no more an indictment of all islam than calling this fruitbat a christian terrorist is an indictment of all christianity. A wacko is a wacko is a wacko, no matter what book they read from when they pray.

Edited to add: I want to make clear that while I don't think I've ever made any secret of the fact that I have some strong anti-religious views, it's difficult for me to imagine any circumstances in which I would blame an isolated incident by a crazed christian terrorist on christianity as a whole. His actions don't reflect negatively on religion so much as they reflect negatively on the criminally insane. He's a lunatic who just happens to be a christian lunatic. If he'd been born in a different hemisphere, he'd have probably been doing his lunaticking on behalf of a different faith altogether.

< Message edited by ThatDamnedPanda -- 6/11/2009 11:02:46 PM >

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RE: Shooting at Holocaust Museum in D.C. - 6/11/2009 11:05:20 PM

DomKen

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Did anyone read the chapters of his book?... It will quickly clear up the " Is he a Christian" mystery.

No reason to debate something that is false.

Butch

I read the first two, all I could stomach, he's a christian. He associated with christian identity leaders throughout his life and what others had to say about him makes it clear that those close to him considered him a christian.

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RE: Shooting at Holocaust Museum in D.C. - 6/11/2009 11:07:51 PM

DomKen

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

Well, Ken, I guess we'll just have to wait and see if Abdulhakim Mujahid Muhammed gets some sort of copycat, won't we?

I was wondering when that talking point would show up. The problem is of the 3 terrorist acts commited these last 2 weeks only 2 of the perpetrators have actually been criminally charged as terrorists. IMO it should be all 3. Saying Roeder wasn't a terrorist is full on political appeasement.

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RE: Shooting at Holocaust Museum in D.C. - 6/11/2009 11:08:15 PM

ThatDamnedPanda

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic
Get out towards the extreme edges, where ideology becomes psychosis, words like "left" and "right" don't have much real meaning. Ted Kazcienski (sp?), Jim Jones, Mumia Abu-Jamal... Are these folks "left" in any way you relate to?

You didn't ask me, but I'l answer anyway. Are they left? Yes, I'd definitely say so. Not in any way I relate to, but speaking objectively, I'd have to say they were, indeed, left-wing terrorists/murderers.

And by the way, that first sentence in the portion I quoted was a very astute and well-stated observation. Just in case everyone else gets so busy defending their own position that they fail to notice, I want to make sure at least one person mentions it. I totally agree with you.

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RE: Shooting at Holocaust Museum in D.C. - 6/12/2009 4:00:58 AM

thishereboi

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MarsBonfire

I don't care who's "more moderate than thou."

1) the guy has been officially designated a domestic terrorist.
2) his connection to the republicans has been established.
3) He seems to have been working alone, but the authorities are still investigating his internet connections.
4) This won't be the last. We're only six months into the first four years. The GOP-pods are out there, and they are taking their orders from the most extreme elements of the republican party. And they are preaching hate and violence.
5) Vote to end extremisim. Vote Democratic.

they are preaching hate? Almost every post you make drips of hate for the right side of the country. And I am supposed to look at democrats as the good guys after reading your posts....yea right. Like that's gonna happen.

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RE: Shooting at Holocaust Museum in D.C. - 6/12/2009 6:38:02 AM

Apocalypso

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
He is an isolated... mentally tortured… murderous sociopath…nothing more.

On current evidence, I don't think we have the grounds to say that he was insane.

It's tempting. But the truth is that sane people sometimes do evil things.

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RE: Shooting at Holocaust Museum in D.C. - 6/12/2009 9:03:44 AM

FirmhandKY

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda
Apparent enough that I'm comfortable right now referring to him as a christian terrorist.

I guess that means that you don't have any problem with the term "Muslim terrorists" then, when a Muslim person kills someone?

Problem? Christ no! I'm surprised; I honestly thought you knew me better than that. A spade's a spade. Calling those ignorant, frothmouthed lunatics muslim terrorists is no more an indictment of all islam than calling this fruitbat a christian terrorist is an indictment of all christianity. A wacko is a wacko is a wacko, no matter what book they read from when they pray.

Edited to add: I want to make clear that while I don't think I've ever made any secret of the fact that I have some strong anti-religious views, it's difficult for me to imagine any circumstances in which I would blame an isolated incident by a crazed christian terrorist on christianity as a whole. His actions don't reflect negatively on religion so much as they reflect negatively on the criminally insane. He's a lunatic who just happens to be a christian lunatic. If he'd been born in a different hemisphere, he'd have probably been doing his lunaticking on behalf of a different faith altogether.

panda,

Thanks for your thoughtful reply.

I generally respect you, and your point of view. But just occasionally, it seems like you slide over into the "very emotional" side of things, and forget some of the nuances, but you always seem to back up and put more thought into it - or at least take the time to more fully explain your point of view. I find that refreshing from someone on "the other side" of the political spectrum. And pretty rare, too.

Your clarification about "christian terrorists" not being an attack on Christianity is good, and I understand your point. I'd just say that whenever you add a religious qualifier in front of the word "terrorists", you are likely to be seen as condemning the entire religion.

It's a truism that the left constantly points out when the term "Muslim terrorist" is used, and I just wanted to point that out in this case.

Firm

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RE: Shooting at Holocaust Museum in D.C. - 6/12/2009 9:14:30 AM

sirsholly

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Apocalypso

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
He is an isolated... mentally tortured… murderous sociopath…nothing more.

On current evidence, I don't think we have the grounds to say that he was insane.

It's tempting. But the truth is that sane people sometimes do evil things.

When i was reading about him the term sociopath/psychpath crossed my mind more than once.

Apocalypso...a sociopathic personality and insanity are very very different.

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