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RE: Minutemen not protecting US citizens - 6/14/2009 2:47:38 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: cadenas
You are contradicting yourself here. First you are complaining about the cost of prenatal care - which avoids an ER visit - and then you complain about the cost of an ER?

I'm not contradicting anything. The only facts I heard quoted about dollar figures were for the births. That is but one area of medical care and it alone is bankrupting hospitals in border towns. When you add in the rest of the cost of the care they receive (for free) than the number would be truly staggering.

And don't talk to me about who uses the ER more. I have only been to one a handful of times. I could count the folks who looked like citizens on one hand. The rest needed an interpreter.

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"'Till the roof comes off, 'till the lights go out
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RE: Minutemen not protecting US citizens - 6/14/2009 4:37:55 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Loki45

quote:

ORIGINAL: cadenas
You are contradicting yourself here. First you are complaining about the cost of prenatal care - which avoids an ER visit - and then you complain about the cost of an ER?

I'm not contradicting anything. The only facts I heard quoted about dollar figures were for the births. That is but one area of medical care and it alone is bankrupting hospitals in border towns.

You said "Let's not forget that in hospitals along border towns, they lose about that much per MONTH in costs associated with births of illegal aliens."

I wouldn't call this a "fact". That's a vague statement, and whoever told you that probably only picked that up from somewhere else and further distorted it. Did you ever play the "Telephone Game" where children sit in a circle. One child whispers something in his neighbor's ear. The neighbor then repeats it until it has gone around the circle. Usually, what comes out is hilariously funny but completely different from what goes in.

I think I actually found the source for your data: a 1997 (!) letter from the GAO to Rep. Elton Gallegly. Except that the data says something quite different. It's not "hospitals in border towns" but rather "all of California and Texas", including San Francisco, Redding, Dallas, Houston - hardly border towns. And hospitals didn't lose a penny. And the vast majority of births (86% in California, 92% in Texas) were by Americans and documented aliens.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Loki45
When you add in the rest of the cost of the care they receive (for free) than the number would be truly staggering. And don't talk to me about who uses the ER more. I have only been to one a handful of times. I could count the folks who looked like citizens on one hand. The rest needed an interpreter.

First, "looks like a citizen" is not a good criterion (remember, Puerto Rico is part of the USA! And there also is a large Cuban population, as well as a large Hispanic population who has been in California or Texas since the days of Junipero Serra).

Ignoring that, the CDC disagrees with you. http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nhsr/nhsr007.pdf

In 2006, there were a total of 119.2 million ER visits - 103 million of them were by non-Hispanics Also, ER visits are primarily expensive for older people, 45-64, but illegal immigrants tend to be young and therefore cheap to treat.

(in reply to Loki45)

RE: Minutemen not protecting US citizens - 6/14/2009 9:13:14 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: cadenas
If you read carefully, it actually counts benefits to US citizens (falsely attributed to illegal immigrants) and is a mix of federal, state and local spending (not "LA County alone").

      Yeah. You have to read so carefully to find it, that it's right there in the sub-head of the link I posted. Welfare benefits paid for the children of illegal immigrants.

      You are correct about many different kinds of taxes going into the welfare pot. I used LA county as more of a geographic reference, but can understand where that could have been misinterpreted. It would have been more precise for me to say 'distributed' instead of 'spent.' Not that it really matters anyway, since we all get to pay all those different tax jurisdictions.



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RE: Minutemen not protecting US citizens - 6/14/2009 9:34:30 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Joenextdoor
Two people connected with the Minutemen break the law on their own time....What does that have to do with the mission of the Minutemen??...Not a thing.

Good point. This is just like the posts from that guy who has a chip on his shoulder about cops and any time one or a few cops steps out of line he lambastes law enforcement on the whole.

(in reply to Joenextdoor)

RE: Minutemen not protecting US citizens - 6/14/2009 3:35:38 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: cadenas
I wouldn't call this a "fact". That's a vague statement, and whoever told you that probably only picked that up from somewhere else and further distorted it. Did you ever play the "Telephone Game" where children sit in a circle. One child whispers something in his neighbor's ear. The neighbor then repeats it until it has gone around the circle. Usually, what comes out is hilariously funny but completely different from what goes in.

I may be misquoting the information, because it has been awhile. As it begins to come back to me, I think it was two stories I was quoting. In one, the Hospitals were saying it was $40 a month for illegal birts. And in the other story it was about how hospitals in bordertowns were going bankrupt and being forced to consider shutting down because they were not getting reimbursed for their expenses.

The underlying point is these people get free care, and access to our system, benefits, etc and pay nothing into the system. They come here waving the flag of a "better life" but they fail to mention that the "better life" they are seeking is "back home" in their home country. They don't consider themselves citizens and many have no desire to be. They are here living in squalor while they funnel their money back "home."

So not only are they not paying taxes on their earnings, but the notion some make that they are contributing to our economy is also false as most of their money goes back to their "home" and never sees circulation in the American economy.

_____________________________

"'Till the roof comes off, 'till the lights go out
'Till my legs give out, can't shut my mouth."

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RE: Minutemen not protecting US citizens - 6/15/2009 6:08:27 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Loki45

quote:

ORIGINAL: cadenas
I wouldn't call this a "fact". That's a vague statement, and whoever told you that probably only picked that up from somewhere else and further distorted it. Did you ever play the "Telephone Game" where children sit in a circle. One child whispers something in his neighbor's ear. The neighbor then repeats it until it has gone around the circle. Usually, what comes out is hilariously funny but completely different from what goes in.

I may be misquoting the information, because it has been awhile. As it begins to come back to me, I think it was two stories I was quoting. In one, the Hospitals were saying it was $40 a month for illegal birts. And in the other story it was about how hospitals in bordertowns were going bankrupt and being forced to consider shutting down because they were not getting reimbursed for their expenses.

Hospitals all throughout the country are going bankrupt because for the average family, health insurance has become more expensive than mortgage payments. ERs are closing down left and right because uninsured Americans have no other place to go for health care and hospitals can't afford to subsidize them. Southern California is hard hit because of the overall economy. It's got nothing to do with illegal immigration.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Loki45
The underlying point is these people get free care, and access to our system, benefits, etc and pay nothing into the system.

Actually, that's pretty much an urban legend. For one, illegal immigrants generally do pay taxes. Obviously sales taxes, but also income taxes - in fact, more income taxes than Americans because they don't file for a refund. In fact, they pay so much in taxes that the Social Security Administration considers it a substantial factor in keeping Social Security viable for many decades.

And on the other end of the equation, they aren't eligible for most benefits that are available to you and me.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Loki45
They come here waving the flag of a "better life" but they fail to mention that the "better life" they are seeking is "back home" in their home country. They don't consider themselves citizens and many have no desire to be. They are here living in squalor while they funnel their money back "home."

Um.... You may want to do some fact-checking here. It used to be true in the 1970s that most illegal "immigrants" came for harvest season and returned home. That changed since we built the border wall.

Today, most WANT to become citizens, but there is no legal way to do it. Those who can do it (mostly those legalized through the 1980s amnesty) have swamped immigration offices with citizenship applications to the point that USCIS all but broke down. For a while, citizenship applications took three years or more to complete (normal is about three months).

quote:

ORIGINAL: Loki45
So not only are they not paying taxes on their earnings, but the notion some make that they are contributing to our economy is also false as most of their money goes back to their "home" and never sees circulation in the American economy.

Re taxes: see above. Re contributing to the economy: money isn't something that gets used up; it circulates. What do you think somebody in Guadalajara or Acapulco does with the dollars he receives from his US relative? He spends it. And because it's a US dollar, he MUST spend it on American goods (or he uses it for groceries, and then the grocer buys American goods). If that was not the case, the dollar would just be a piece of paper with green ink on it.

It plain doesn't matter if the money crosses the border at some point, because it has to cross back.

(in reply to Loki45)

RE: Minutemen not protecting US citizens - 6/15/2009 6:31:07 AM

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Care to back any of those assertions up, Cadena? I'm particularly curious about the notion that American dollars can only be spent on American goods. Please, elaborate on that. I'm fascinated.

Or are you just going to attack the messenger again, as you did with my earlier link in the thread?

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.

(in reply to cadenas)

RE: Minutemen not protecting US citizens - 6/15/2009 7:41:11 AM

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Some more interesting data that I think plays into the debate:

Migrant Remittances from the US to Latin American countries:

The Inter American Development Bank (IDB) projects that remittances to Latin America and the Caribbean will grow by 1.5% in 2008, reaching 67.5 billion dollars.

Latin America: Remittance Drops:

In terms of sheer volume, Mexico heads the pack in the region, followed by Brazil (7.2 billion dollars), Colombia (4.8 billion), Guatemala (4.3 billion), El Salvador (3.8 billion), the Dominican Republic (3.1 billion), Peru (2.9 billion), Ecuador (2.8 billion), and Honduras (2.7 billion), according to the IDB.

Firm

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RE: Minutemen not protecting US citizens - 6/15/2009 9:46:26 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

Care to back any of those assertions up, Cadena? I'm particularly curious about the notion that American dollars can only be spent on American goods. Please, elaborate on that. I'm fascinated.

As am I. I seriously doubt the plethora of countries who accept the dollar use it only for American goods. They sure didn't in the countries I visited.

_____________________________

"'Till the roof comes off, 'till the lights go out
'Till my legs give out, can't shut my mouth."

(in reply to TheHeretic)

RE: Minutemen not protecting US citizens - 6/15/2009 9:51:01 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: cadenas
Hospitals all throughout the country are going bankrupt because for the average family, health insurance has become more expensive than mortgage payments. ERs are closing down left and right because uninsured Americans have no other place to go for health care and hospitals can't afford to subsidize them. Southern California is hard hit because of the overall economy. It's got nothing to do with illegal immigration.

You're fooling yourself here.

quote:

ORIGINAL: cadenas
Actually, that's pretty much an urban legend. For one, illegal immigrants generally do pay taxes. Obviously sales taxes, but also income taxes - in fact, more income taxes than Americans because they don't file for a refund. In fact, they pay so much in taxes that the Social Security Administration considers it a substantial factor in keeping Social Security viable for many decades.

And here you're just plain mis-informed. Day laborers for example pay no income taxes at all, because they are paid in cash. And it doesn't matter that they pay sales taxes when they only get the bare minimum necessary to survive. This is why you see 10 of them living in one apartment designed for a small family (as I have frequently seen). They get just what they need to survive and the rest of their money goes south and is never seen here again.

quote:

ORIGINAL: cadenas
Today, most WANT to become citizens, but there is no legal way to do it.

So their answers is to break the laws and put undue stress on a country that's not theirs? By that logic I should go rob a bank. I would like a legal way to get more money, but I don't have much as it is so I should just go take it.

_____________________________

"'Till the roof comes off, 'till the lights go out
'Till my legs give out, can't shut my mouth."

(in reply to cadenas)

RE: Minutemen not protecting US citizens - 6/15/2009 10:30:10 AM

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Not only this, but several of my clients that use immigrants that may be illegal, have their exceptions in payroll set to 10 or more. This usually excludes them from FIT and SIT. Yes they still pay into SS and Medicare, but that is a very small portion compared to the Fed and State taxes they do not pay.

Yet another reason to move to the FairTax . As this would catch all of the illegal money moving around in the country, and promote people to save or invest.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Loki45

And here you're just plain mis-informed. Day laborers for example pay no income taxes at all, because they are paid in cash. And it doesn't matter that they pay sales taxes when they only get the bare minimum necessary to survive. This is why you see 10 of them living in one apartment designed for a small family (as I have frequently seen). They get just what they need to survive and the rest of their money goes south and is never seen here again.

_____________________________

When speaking of slaves people always tend to ignore this definition "One who is abjectly subservient to a specified person or influence."

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RE: Minutemen not protecting US citizens - 6/15/2009 10:39:58 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic
Care to back any of those assertions up, Cadena? I'm particularly curious about the notion that American dollars can only be spent on American goods.

That's not quite what I said. What I said is that the money circulates back to the USA. Sure, somebody in Mexico can use it to buy Mexican-grown corn (as I said in my post). What does the corn farmer do with the dollar? It may be spent a few more times within Mexico, but ultimately the dollar is only valuable to a Mexican because it allows access to US goods. Could be Ford trucks or whirlpool refrigerators or Boeing aircraft.

That aside - from an economic standpoint, it doesn't matter whether it's a Mexican living in the USA or a Mexican living in Mexico who spends the dollar.

(in reply to TheHeretic)

RE: Minutemen not protecting US citizens - 6/15/2009 10:44:00 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf
Not only this, but several of my clients that use immigrants that may be illegal, have their exceptions in payroll set to 10 or more. This usually excludes them from FIT and SIT. Yes they still pay into SS and Medicare, but that is a very small portion compared to the Fed and State taxes they do not pay.

I find that hard to believe because the IRS requires that W-4s with more than 9 exemptions be sent in with justification - not something you would want to do if you want to avoid detection.

(in reply to OrionTheWolf)

RE: Minutemen not protecting US citizens - 6/15/2009 11:13:55 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Loki45

quote:

ORIGINAL: cadenas
Actually, that's pretty much an urban legend. For one, illegal immigrants generally do pay taxes. Obviously sales taxes, but also income taxes - in fact, more income taxes than Americans because they don't file for a refund. In fact, they pay so much in taxes that the Social Security Administration considers it a substantial factor in keeping Social Security viable for many decades.

And here you're just plain mis-informed. Day laborers for example pay no income taxes at all, because they are paid in cash. And it doesn't matter that they pay sales taxes when they only get the bare minimum necessary to survive.

Day laborers are a very small percentage of illegal immigrants; the vast majority holds long-term jobs. Tyson Foods and Swift didn't use day laborers but permanent employees with W-2s and all. That is why employer sanctions are being discussed as part of immigration enforcement. According to the Public Policy Institute: The number of people who stand on street corners looking for work make up 0.02 percent of the state's [California's] total work force.

From the Social Security Administration: "In its 2008 annual report, Social Security officials said undocumented immigrants actual benefit the Social Security trust fund. One reason is that many of them pay Social Security taxes but never collect benefits. In previously published reports, Social Security officials have said undocumented immigrants paid about $7 billion into the trust fund in 2005, the latest year for which numbers are available."

That's not day laborers either.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Loki45
This is why you see 10 of them living in one apartment designed for a small family (as I have frequently seen).

Actually, that is usually the result of American employers illegally housing farm workers in substandard conditions - often legal farm workers (with an H-2B visa) who return home after a few weeks of work.

For illegal immigrants, it's comparatively rare nowadays because since the border fence was built, illegal immigrants now tend to stay year-round, bring their families and move into homes of their own. It's one of the reasons the numbers of illegal immigrants have increased in recent years.

< Message edited by cadenas -- 6/15/2009 11:49:41 AM >

(in reply to Loki45)

RE: Minutemen not protecting US citizens - 6/15/2009 11:56:47 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: cadenas
Day laborers are a very small percentage of illegal immigrants; the vast majority holds long-term jobs. Tyson Foods and Swift didn't use day laborers but permanent employees with W-2s and all. That is why employer sanctions are being discussed as part of immigration enforcement. According to the Public Policy Institute: The number of people who stand on street corners looking for work make up 0.02 percent of the state's [California's] total work force.

And of course each and every one of them are using their own, legally obtained ID number, right? Instead of someone stolen SSN? Right. I believe that. Hey....I have this beach-front property you might be interested in....it's located in Idaho.....

quote:

ORIGINAL: cadenas
Actually, that is usually the result of American employers illegally housing farm workers in substandard conditions - often legal farm workers (with an H-2B visa) who return home after a few weeks of work.

Really? Because I live in a major city and the apartments across from where I used to live where designed for a family of no more than 3, yet at least 10 lived there.

quote:

ORIGINAL: cadenas
For illegal immigrants, it's comparatively rare nowadays because since the border fence was built, illegal immigrants now tend to stay year-round, bring their families and move into homes of their own. It's one of the reasons the numbers of illegal immigrants have increased in recent years.

Really? What fence are you talking about? Every time I hear about a border fence, it's a story on how it's NOT being built because X,Y, Z organization is suing. I haven't so much as seen a foot of it built yet. Not to mention that the oh-so-effective fence was only supposed to cover less than half the total border.

What dream world are you living in? I saw numerous articles at the start of our little "economic downturn" that said millions were faced with the choice between staying, where they couldn't make enough money to send "home" and actually returning home, knowing they wouldn't be able to come back easily.

_____________________________

"'Till the roof comes off, 'till the lights go out
'Till my legs give out, can't shut my mouth."

(in reply to cadenas)

RE: Minutemen not protecting US citizens - 6/15/2009 12:10:21 PM

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You can find it hard to believe if you wish, and yes I am quite familar with w-4's, I am a Business Consultant. The W-4 is sent in with a letter stating maintain a large family (over 9 exemptions) and that is all that is required. What do you think the IRS actually has the man power to follow up on these things? Now that is hard to believe.

quote:

ORIGINAL: cadenas

quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf
Not only this, but several of my clients that use immigrants that may be illegal, have their exceptions in payroll set to 10 or more. This usually excludes them from FIT and SIT. Yes they still pay into SS and Medicare, but that is a very small portion compared to the Fed and State taxes they do not pay.

I find that hard to believe because the IRS requires that W-4s with more than 9 exemptions be sent in with justification - not something you would want to do if you want to avoid detection.

_____________________________

When speaking of slaves people always tend to ignore this definition "One who is abjectly subservient to a specified person or influence."

(in reply to cadenas)

RE: Minutemen not protecting US citizens - 6/15/2009 2:01:09 PM

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I find it interesting that in US the only concern with massive illegal immigration is the possible loss in income and benefits for the individuals with legal residency. For Europeans the most important problem is that fast immigration produces large number of people who do not assimilate into nation based (having common language and culture) society and this way are threat to the quality of life and nation's stability. Perhaps there is some truth in US professor John Kozy opinion (www.jkozy.com):
"The United States of America does not have anything that an anthropologist would recognize as a true society. America consists of a mere cluster of people and groups with various and often opposing beliefs who often have little tolerance for the beliefs held by the others. It has been said that Americans do not live together, they merely live side by side. These individuals and groups openly seek to promote their own interests at the expense of the interests of all."

(in reply to OrionTheWolf)

RE: Minutemen not protecting US citizens - 6/15/2009 2:45:11 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Loki45

quote:

ORIGINAL: cadenas
Day laborers are a very small percentage of illegal immigrants; the vast majority holds long-term jobs. Tyson Foods and Swift didn't use day laborers but permanent employees with W-2s and all. That is why employer sanctions are being discussed as part of immigration enforcement. According to the Public Policy Institute: The number of people who stand on street corners looking for work make up 0.02 percent of the state's [California's] total work force.

And of course each and every one of them are using their own, legally obtained ID number, right? Instead of someone stolen SSN?

What does that have to do with paying taxes? It only has to do with claiming a refund. In any case - if that really is your main concern, there is an easy solution: return to the system we had until the mid 1990s and issue SSNs to anybody just for the asking.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Loki45

quote:

ORIGINAL: cadenas
For illegal immigrants, it's comparatively rare nowadays because since the border fence was built, illegal immigrants now tend to stay year-round, bring their families and move into homes of their own. It's one of the reasons the numbers of illegal immigrants have increased in recent years.

Really? What fence are you talking about? Every time I hear about a border fence, it's a story on how it's NOT being built because X,Y, Z organization is suing. I haven't so much as seen a foot of it built yet. Not to mention that the oh-so-effective fence was only supposed to cover less than half the total border.

You obviously haven't been to Southern California. Here in San Diego, it's more like the Berlin Wall. http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/00DAgBs9SL0st/610x.jpg http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/017obUq7cCeev/610x.jpg http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/02/US-Mexico_border_fence.jpg

You ARE entitled to your own opinion. You aren't entitled to your own facts.

(in reply to Loki45)

RE: Minutemen not protecting US citizens - 6/15/2009 2:55:04 PM

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Illegal immigration is on balance bad for the citizens in the US as it increases competition for jobs, not just in agriculture but in construction, meatpacking etc., which used to have better wages. The Democrat party leaders win by getting greater numbers of congressional seats assigned to their district, and eventually may get votes from the offspring or from the illegal aliens if they're amnestied. Businesses of course get cheap labor. The average citizen, especially lower income folks, gets hosed due to the competition for jobs. Plus illegals aliens take out more from the system than they pay in since they're paying taxes(if they're paying taxes at all) on lower wages, not to mention their birth rates are much higher, thus we have to pick up the tab for hospital bills, education etc. Not to mention the diminished quality of life we all experience due to overpopulation, traffic etc.

(in reply to cadenas)

RE: Minutemen not protecting US citizens - 6/15/2009 2:57:20 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: awmslave
I find it interesting that in US the only concern with massive illegal immigration is the possible loss in income and benefits for the individuals with legal residency. For Europeans the most important problem is that fast immigration produces large number of people who do not assimilate into nation based (having common language and culture) society and this way are threat to the quality of life and nation's stability.

Actually, historically, the USA has always objected to whatever current wave of immigrants came - doesn't matter if it was legal or illegal. When I was in high school in the 1980s, it was against the Vietnamese. And at other points of the 19th and 20th centuries, it was against the Chinese (which led to the Chinese Exclusion Act), the Irish, the Polish, the Italians, the Germans, the Jews, ... Currently, it is the Mexicans, but that is already being supplanted by a fear of Indian immigrants. So this whole "illegal immigration" concern may simply disappear into thin air fairly soon.

It's not even really about income and benefits, or at least not the way it is made out to be. There is a pattern with all immigrants (with the exception of African Americans): those who arrive, and their children, succeed. And, yes, that includes illegal immigrants from Mexico once they are legalized. Those legalized with the 1980s amnesty (who actually had to wait until 2005 for their paperwork) have rapidly climbed the economic ladder, and now have the proverbial house with picket fence, 2.1 children and SUV in the driveway. That's hardly surprising if you think about it. People who leave their home country do so because they are willing to work hard and take chances. The exact qualities you need to be successful.

And subconsciously that may actually be the bigger threat to many Americans: being surpassed by more successful newcomers.

(in reply to awmslave)

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