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RE: Minutemen not protecting US citizens - 6/16/2009 12:45:27 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: blacksword404
The government has only half-assed secured the border. I saw Congress pass a bill to put up a fence only when it came time to fund it they voted not too. But I was expecting just that. People only remember them voting for the fence to be built. Not when they voted to strip the funding.

We had many other attempts before this one, going back to the 1970s.

And you are exactly right about the funding. As you said: "resources are limited." and "Choices have to be made." This border fence is such an unworkable monster that not even the richest nation on the planet earth - that's us - can afford it.

Which means, we are left with either tolerating illegal immigration as it is right now, or one of the other options I proposed.

(in reply to blacksword404)

RE: Minutemen not protecting US citizens - 6/16/2009 12:53:01 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic
Why are you assuming that avoiding violence is some sort of ultimate value?

Surely you jest. Wow. Wow wow wow. You mean, killing civilians is somehow a morally acceptable choice? Maybe you should emigrate to Rwanda. Or Darfur. Or Baghdad.

This kind of thinking has no place in a civilized country.

(in reply to TheHeretic)

RE: Minutemen not protecting US citizens - 6/16/2009 4:12:02 AM

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Joined: 9/21/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: cadenas

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic
Why are you assuming that avoiding violence is some sort of ultimate value?

Surely you jest. Wow. Wow wow wow. You mean, killing civilians is somehow a morally acceptable choice? Maybe you should emigrate to Rwanda. Or Darfur. Or Baghdad.

This kind of thinking has no place in a civilized country.

Is this an intentional misunderstanding of what was said?

Firm

_____________________________

Some people are just idiots.

(in reply to cadenas)

RE: Minutemen not protecting US citizens - 6/16/2009 5:33:06 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: cadenas

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic
Why are you assuming that avoiding violence is some sort of ultimate value?

Surely you jest. Wow. Wow wow wow. You mean, killing civilians is somehow a morally acceptable choice? Maybe you should emigrate to Rwanda. Or Darfur. Or Baghdad.

This kind of thinking has no place in a civilized country.

Is this an intentional misunderstanding of what was said?

I sure hope it was a misunderstanding, but it seemed pretty clear on the face of it. Maybe you can clarify what post #77 (in response to post #75) really means if not that he advocates using violence, even war.

(in reply to FirmhandKY)

RE: Minutemen not protecting US citizens - 6/16/2009 5:51:56 AM

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Sure it has it's place, when taken in the correct context. The government enforces the law, with deadly or brutal force if need be. Now I do not propose that in this situation, but your statement is completely inacurate.

quote:

ORIGINAL: cadenas

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic
Why are you assuming that avoiding violence is some sort of ultimate value?

Surely you jest. Wow. Wow wow wow. You mean, killing civilians is somehow a morally acceptable choice? Maybe you should emigrate to Rwanda. Or Darfur. Or Baghdad.

This kind of thinking has no place in a civilized country.

_____________________________

When speaking of slaves people always tend to ignore this definition "One who is abjectly subservient to a specified person or influence."

(in reply to cadenas)

RE: Minutemen not protecting US citizens - 6/16/2009 6:12:24 AM

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Well, this statement was in a very specific context, as was my response.

Plus, even when arresting a felon, avoiding violence IS a value; it is only used as a last resort.

quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

Sure it has it's place, when taken in the correct context. The government enforces the law, with deadly or brutal force if need be. Now I do not propose that in this situation, but your statement is completely inacurate.

quote:

ORIGINAL: cadenas

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic
Why are you assuming that avoiding violence is some sort of ultimate value?

Surely you jest. Wow. Wow wow wow. You mean, killing civilians is somehow a morally acceptable choice? Maybe you should emigrate to Rwanda. Or Darfur. Or Baghdad.

This kind of thinking has no place in a civilized country.

< Message edited by cadenas -- 6/16/2009 6:18:10 AM >

(in reply to OrionTheWolf)

RE: Minutemen not protecting US citizens - 6/16/2009 6:43:03 AM

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Avoiding violence should always be the last resort, but when all else fails it resolves the immediate issue. I recommend using qualifiers when indicating something in a specific context, as it will reduce miscommunication. No worries as we are all guilty of it from time to time.

As far as immigration:

1) revise existing immigration laws
2) Improve border security
3) Special task force to go after organized crime related illigal immigrants
4) Special detention facilities for detained illegal immigrants
5) Severe penalities for employers that hire illegal immigrants

I believe that before any of this is done, we must get out own house in order so that guests can be received properly. This means that quotas should go down during times of economic hardships and go up during times of prosperity.

quote:

ORIGINAL: cadenas

Well, this statement was in a very specific context, as was my response.

Plus, even when arresting a felon, avoiding violence IS a value; it is only used as a last resort.

_____________________________

When speaking of slaves people always tend to ignore this definition "One who is abjectly subservient to a specified person or influence."

(in reply to cadenas)

RE: Minutemen not protecting US citizens - 6/16/2009 7:06:14 AM

Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: cadenas
there is no way to cut illegal immigration.

Utter nonsense and poppycock. What is lacking is the will. We don't need millions or billions of $ worth of fence and electronic sensors. If we want it to stop, we would need an official finding from POTUS that illegal border crossings present a clear threat to national security, and an order to randomly deploy sniper teams along the border. The word would spread very quickly, I'm sure. The cuts would be immediate

I'm not advocating such a course of action (I'm really very sympathetic to what brings people here), but don't say there is "no way," so we might as well just give up.

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.

(in reply to cadenas)

RE: Minutemen not protecting US citizens - 6/16/2009 7:09:51 AM

Posts: 19100
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From: California, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: cadenas

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic
Why are you assuming that avoiding violence is some sort of ultimate value?

Surely you jest. Wow. Wow wow wow. You mean, killing civilians is somehow a morally acceptable choice? Maybe you should emigrate to Rwanda. Or Darfur. Or Baghdad.

This kind of thinking has no place in a civilized country.

Is this an intentional misunderstanding of what was said?

Firm

That is the assumption I'm running on.

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.

(in reply to FirmhandKY)

RE: Minutemen not protecting US citizens - 6/16/2009 8:53:26 AM

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Joined: 5/13/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: cadenas
Nobody ever proposed otherwise.

You kinda did when you made the following statement:

quote:

ORIGINAL: cadenas
You obviously haven't been to Southern California. Here in San Diego, it's more like the Berlin Wall.

_____________________________

"'Till the roof comes off, 'till the lights go out
'Till my legs give out, can't shut my mouth."

(in reply to cadenas)

RE: Minutemen not protecting US citizens - 6/16/2009 8:55:00 AM

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Joined: 5/13/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: cadenas

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic
Why are you assuming that avoiding violence is some sort of ultimate value?

Surely you jest. Wow. Wow wow wow. You mean, killing civilians is somehow a morally acceptable choice? Maybe you should emigrate to Rwanda. Or Darfur. Or Baghdad.

This kind of thinking has no place in a civilized country.

What about the violence against citizens by the illegally immigrating aliens? The multi-national gangs coming over the border....the fact that LOTS of them like to drink and drive and killl a mother and her 7-year-old as they are leaving a dance class and minding their own businesss?

Or how about the escalating drug war and rash of kidnappings of U.S. citizens along the border?

< Message edited by Loki45 -- 6/16/2009 8:56:04 AM >

_____________________________

"'Till the roof comes off, 'till the lights go out
'Till my legs give out, can't shut my mouth."

(in reply to cadenas)

RE: Minutemen not protecting US citizens - 6/16/2009 1:36:42 PM

Posts: 517
Joined: 11/27/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf
As far as immigration:

1) revise existing immigration laws
2) Improve border security
3) Special task force to go after organized crime related illigal immigrants
4) Special detention facilities for detained illegal immigrants
5) Severe penalities for employers that hire illegal immigrants

I believe that before any of this is done, we must get out own house in order so that guests can be received properly. This means that quotas should go down during times of economic hardships and go up during times of prosperity.

Now we are getting somewhere. Do you realize that ALL of these things are already current law?

We have tried revising current immigration laws countless times. The one thing we never addressed is that the quotas are far too low and the categories too restrictive; that's what leads to the up to 25 year wait, and pushes people to immigrate illegally in the first place. I hear you on wanting a limit on immigration - but unfortunately that is the heart of the problem.

We have tried improving border security - to the point where we couldn't afford any more.

We already have special task forces going after immigration-related organized crime.

We already have special detention facilities for detained illegal immigrants; even children are kept in these facilities for months separate from their parents.

We already have severe penalties for employers, even prison terms. There is not enough political will to enforce them, though - and that's not going to change.

(in reply to OrionTheWolf)

RE: Minutemen not protecting US citizens - 6/16/2009 2:03:12 PM

Posts: 517
Joined: 11/27/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic
Utter nonsense and poppycock. What is lacking is the will. We don't need millions or billions of $ worth of fence and electronic sensors. If we want it to stop, we would need an official finding from POTUS that illegal border crossings present a clear threat to national security, and an order to randomly deploy sniper teams along the border. The word would spread very quickly, I'm sure. The cuts would be immediate

I'm not advocating such a course of action (I'm really very sympathetic to what brings people here), but don't say there is "no way," so we might as well just give up.

I'm glad you are clarifying that, because otherwise it does sound as if you were advocating it.

Quite frankly, moral considerations aside, that approach wouldn't even work for any number of reasons. First, SCOTUS would overturn that on Constitutional grounds. A shoot-to-kill order would require an imminent danger from that specific person.

Second, these people already are risking their lives in the desert, and they are aware of that. They also already risk being shot at by drug smugglers and the like. What's the risk from a few bullets to them?

And where would you get all the snipers? With the 3000 mile border, you'd be looking at close to 400,000 snipers - which is nearly the entire US Army. Or of course you could only cover parts of the border, or only for a few hours per day. But then it becomes a simple matter of figuring out the schedule and finding an unprotected part of the border. Or immigrant smuggling would simply take a different route, over the ocean, flying, building tunnels could come back again, bribing immigration officials, ...

Finally, when we start shooting Mexican citizens, Mexico would be forced to get involved. Such as, by placing tanks along the border and shooting sniper positions. At that point, we'd have an all-out war.

So even the moral and legal issues aside, it's not even doable.

(in reply to TheHeretic)

RE: Minutemen not protecting US citizens - 6/16/2009 2:04:57 PM

Posts: 1073
Joined: 5/4/2008
From: Tempe, AZ
Status: offline

One at a time:

quote:

ORIGINAL: Loki45

What about the violence against citizens by the illegally immigrating aliens?

Most of this is gang-related, which is drug-related. This problem can be solved economically much easier than it can be solved violently.

quote:

The multi-national gangs coming over the border....

See above, re: drugs -> economic solution.

quote:

the fact that LOTS of them like to drink and drive and killl a mother and her 7-year-old as they are leaving a dance class and minding their own businesss?

That's pretty specific. If I was that mother, I'd probably start talking to God the fifth time I got killed by a Mexican drunk driver.

Or are these five seperate mothers with seven-year olds, being hit by five seperate Mexicans? If so, then maybe we should do some research on whether there's some weird anomaly of quantum mechanics, that causes mothers within a certain proximity of their seven-year-olds to attract Mexican drivers specifically.

As far as the statistics go, most of the drunk drivers I'm personally aware of have been white college kids, not mexicans. In fact, I can't recall a mexican drunk driver in the past 15 drunk driving-related accidents I've seen this year, and I'm in a southern state with a lot of immigration (Arizona).

quote:

Or how about the escalating drug war and rash of kidnappings of U.S. citizens along the border?

See above, re: drugs -> economic solution.

(in reply to Loki45)

RE: Minutemen not protecting US citizens - 6/16/2009 2:15:35 PM

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Joined: 5/13/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ialdabaoth
Most of this is gang-related, which is drug-related. This problem can be solved economically much easier than it can be solved violently.

Exactly. We have our own gangs killing innocent bystanders. We don't need to import them. Economics won't help when you have a gun to your face.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ialdabaoth
Or are these five seperate mothers with seven-year olds, being hit by five seperate Mexicans? If so, then maybe we should do some research on whether there's some weird anomaly of quantum mechanics, that causes mothers within a certain proximity of their seven-year-olds to attract Mexican drivers specifically.

Where are you getting the number five from?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ialdabaoth
As far as the statistics go, most of the drunk drivers I'm personally aware of have been white college kids, not mexicans. In fact, I can't recall a mexican drunk driver in the past 15 drunk driving-related accidents I've seen this year, and I'm in a southern state with a lot of immigration (Arizona).

Well that's what you're personally aware of. I read/watch a variety of news sources daily and it happens often. Not only do they drink, drive and kill, but they run away because they don't have a license or insurance (since they're hear illegally and all).

_____________________________

"'Till the roof comes off, 'till the lights go out
'Till my legs give out, can't shut my mouth."

(in reply to Ialdabaoth)

RE: Minutemen not protecting US citizens - 6/16/2009 2:17:24 PM

Posts: 517
Joined: 11/27/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Loki45

quote:

ORIGINAL: cadenas

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic
Why are you assuming that avoiding violence is some sort of ultimate value?

Surely you jest. Wow. Wow wow wow. You mean, killing civilians is somehow a morally acceptable choice? Maybe you should emigrate to Rwanda. Or Darfur. Or Baghdad.

This kind of thinking has no place in a civilized country.

What about the violence against citizens by the illegally immigrating aliens? The multi-national gangs coming over the border....the fact that LOTS of them like to drink and drive and killl a mother and her 7-year-old as they are leaving a dance class and minding their own businesss?

Or how about the escalating drug war and rash of kidnappings of U.S. citizens along the border?

You are making less and less sense. Are you talking about the millions of illegal immigrants who come to the USA to work and earn a living? Or the few criminals? I'm all for cracking down on those. It seems to me that we got our priorities backwards. Having ICE try to go after the millions of tomato pickers and roofers does absolutely nothing to deal with gang members.

The kidnappings, drug war etc. are done by Mexicans doing what you say you want them to do: live in Mexico.

And of course I have never heard of Americans drinking and driving.

(in reply to Loki45)

RE: Minutemen not protecting US citizens - 6/16/2009 2:20:40 PM

Posts: 1073
Joined: 5/4/2008
From: Tempe, AZ
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Loki45

Where are you getting the number five from?

It seemed reliably on the low end of "LOTS".

(in reply to Loki45)

RE: Minutemen not protecting US citizens - 6/16/2009 2:29:36 PM

Posts: 517
Joined: 11/27/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Loki45

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ialdabaoth
As far as the statistics go, most of the drunk drivers I'm personally aware of have been white college kids, not mexicans. In fact, I can't recall a mexican drunk driver in the past 15 drunk driving-related accidents I've seen this year, and I'm in a southern state with a lot of immigration (Arizona).

Well that's what you're personally aware of. I read/watch a variety of news sources daily and it happens often. Not only do they drink, drive and kill, but they run away because they don't have a license or insurance (since they're hear illegally and all).

It happens "often" - how often? Twice? Ten times? The problem with news sources is that they report individual incidents but say nothing about how often they actually occur. In fact, common events - such as a college kid driving drunk - are simply not newsworthy enough. As a result, you may see three reports about a drunk-driving accident involving an illegal immigrant, and fifty involving college-age kids may have ended up on the cutting room floor.

So when you see it on the news, that's actually evidence that it is very RARE.

That's why we need statistics, not anecdotal evidence.

(in reply to Loki45)

RE: Minutemen not protecting US citizens - 6/16/2009 3:07:14 PM

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People get the government they deserve.

quote:

ORIGINAL: cadenas

We already have severe penalties for employers, even prison terms. There is not enough political will to enforce them, though - and that's not going to change.

_____________________________

When speaking of slaves people always tend to ignore this definition "One who is abjectly subservient to a specified person or influence."

(in reply to cadenas)

RE: Minutemen not protecting US citizens - 6/16/2009 6:27:36 PM

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Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

People get the government they deserve.

In a democracy, this is very true.

_____________________________

(in reply to OrionTheWolf)

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