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RE: On addiction and D/s - 7/2/2009 5:41:33 AM

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Joined: 7/1/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

From my POV( and like I have said before, we all read and perceive things differently), I saw some people debating that if someone wants to do it - it's up to them - and no amount of being told it's 'wrong' or 'not fine' will make a blind bit for difference. And that sometimes, an act is fine - just because you (generic term) don't agree with it, doesn't make it not fine. See, this is where consent get all fucked up for me. Apparently its not 'consent' if someone gets so high they can't see the floor (that's an analagy, but I hope you get what I mean) - but in that case, if someone decides to tell that person over and over that they are 'wrong' - and they don't consent to wanting to hear that but someone has such a need to tell another person that they are wrong that they ignore their wishes - then which nonconsent is 'worse'?

quote:

Can we agree that if someone gets so addicted to drugs, that it actually makes sense to be a prostitute (to get another fix), that they have crossed some threshold out of being able to judge clearly? If that is true - and I don't see how someone can argue it isn't - is it possible that the same basic idea can apply to some here?

I honestly cannot agree with you because I don't see things/actions as blanket 'good or bad' or 'right or wrong'. I look at an individual, rather than the action they are performing - I find that a vital part of any judgement call. Things aren't always black and white, experience and time have taught me that.

the.dark.

I don't think that either non-consent is particularly good.

I think you misunderstood me about the addicted woman who becomes a prostitute though. I was not saying she is a bad person. I think she is not in a place that "sees the floor." I do think that the man who buys her, if he understands why she is there, and he would have to be blind not to, is completely evil. There is really nothing nice anyone can say to defend him.

(in reply to RCdc)

RE: On addiction and D/s - 7/2/2009 5:42:52 AM

RCdc

Posts: 8674
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sarahsubmits
Where did the OP say that everyone should interfere with everyone else? I'm just asking. The closest thing I saw to that was saying that you don't let your drunk friends drive. Then there was a lot of snarking about the constitution. I know why he did it, but it detracted from the argument.

I think you are right about slogans... Did you see my post about my NRA ex?

It didn't. But the impression that occured during the further discussions that insued gave me at least the impression that 'common morals' should be adhered to and if not, then sanity of people would be questioned. Personally I believe that the whole post went way off tilt when the OP and others started trying to discuss irellevant topics that didn't really have anything to do with BDSM or Ds relationships like drink driving and drug addiction. It's like comparing apples to tomatoes and still coming up with watermelons - which is why I was vocal in that I refused to partake in discussing the shock tactics like that in a thread that was allegedly about addicition and Ds.

And yes I did see your comment, I was just clarifying my personal position on the use of buzz words.

the.dark.

_____________________________

RC&dc

love isnt gazing into each others eyes - it's looking forward in the same direction

(in reply to Sarahsubmits)

RE: On addiction and D/s - 7/2/2009 5:48:18 AM

RCdc

Posts: 8674
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sarahsubmits
I don't think that either non-consent is particularly good.

I think you misunderstood me about the addicted woman who becomes a prostitute though. I was not saying she is a bad person. I think she is not in a place that "sees the floor." I do think that the man who buys her, if he understands why she is there, and he would have to be blind not to, is completely evil. There is really nothing nice anyone can say to defend him.

I guess I am still focused on the OPs insistance of the whole moral fibre of 'people'. For me, what you are suggesting this isn't a moral issue(as such), but one of ethics. And that is considering that the man actually knows the prostitutes situation in the first place. But regardless, it's still a questions of ethics, nor morals - IMO.

the.dark.

_____________________________

RC&dc

love isnt gazing into each others eyes - it's looking forward in the same direction

(in reply to Sarahsubmits)

RE: On addiction and D/s - 7/2/2009 5:53:02 AM

CallaFirestormBW

Posts: 3651
Joined: 6/29/2008
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quote:

If someone forced a drunk person to sign a contract, wouldn't there be some taking of advantage?

If someone put a date rape drug in a girl's drink, did she consent?

If someone is clearly impaired, can they consent in a way that has meaning?

[For those who don't know, I use the gender-neuter pronouns 'hir' and 'xhe' in my writing -- just letting folks know so it doesn't side-track/derail the discussion]

I had been attempting to hold off on responding to any of these prior to reading through existing commentary, but this one... UGH! This one just chapped my delicate posterior!

1. An individual who is FORCED to do anything has not -consented-. Consent is a VOLUNTARY PROCESS by which an individual agrees to something, of hir own free will. FORCED=COERSION, CONSENT=AGREEMENT... get it?

2. Date rape drug=Coersion unless both parties have agreed to use it -beforehand-... in which case it becomes consensual and nobody else gets to judge.

3. Who gets to decide what is "clearly impaired"? See, for me, I get to decide. If I am considering scening with someone, I get to decide whether I think playing with that person is in my best interests, and if I have an issue with hir state of impairment, I GET TO SAY NO! If xhe wants to go out and find someone -else- to play with, and can get someone ELSE to consent, hey, that's all on hir... but I take responsibility for MY choices, and the only other people whose choices I get to make are those who are subject to my authority BY THEIR OWN WILL. Now, you'll hear from some folks here that I'm a bitch and a half when it comes to the issue of consent. I don't do fantasy roleplay where people can say "Oh.... no...no.. no more.... no..more.....no.... more..... more... more..." The minute that first "no" comes out, that's it for me. But I refuse to acknowledge that you have any more right to decide who can and can't consent than the individuals involved in the direct negotiation, regardless of the issue up for discussion.

Dame Calla

_____________________________

***
Said to me recently: "Look, I know you're the "voice of reason"... but dammit, I LIKE being unreasonable!!!!"

"Your mind is more interested in the challenge of becoming than the challenge of doing." Jon Benson, Bodybuilder/Trainer

(in reply to Sarahsubmits)

RE: On addiction and D/s - 7/2/2009 5:55:11 AM

Posts: 37
Joined: 7/1/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sarahsubmits
I don't think that either non-consent is particularly good.

I think you misunderstood me about the addicted woman who becomes a prostitute though. I was not saying she is a bad person. I think she is not in a place that "sees the floor." I do think that the man who buys her, if he understands why she is there, and he would have to be blind not to, is completely evil. There is really nothing nice anyone can say to defend him.

I guess I am still focused on the OPs insistance of the whole moral fibre of 'people'. For me, what you are suggesting this isn't a moral issue(as such), but one of ethics. And that is considering that the man actually knows the prostitutes situation in the first place. But regardless, it's still a questions of ethics, nor morals - IMO.

the.dark.

I don't think the OP was calling her immoral either. Though, it is not just a question of ethics to me. When I said that the man who buys that girl is evil, I was saying that he is a moral slime ball.

(in reply to RCdc)

RE: On addiction and D/s - 7/2/2009 5:58:20 AM

Posts: 6062
Joined: 12/12/2007
From: I miss Shore, New Jersey
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sarahsubmits

quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sarahsubmits
I don't think that either non-consent is particularly good.

I think you misunderstood me about the addicted woman who becomes a prostitute though. I was not saying she is a bad person. I think she is not in a place that "sees the floor." I do think that the man who buys her, if he understands why she is there, and he would have to be blind not to, is completely evil. There is really nothing nice anyone can say to defend him.

I guess I am still focused on the OPs insistance of the whole moral fibre of 'people'. For me, what you are suggesting this isn't a moral issue(as such), but one of ethics. And that is considering that the man actually knows the prostitutes situation in the first place. But regardless, it's still a questions of ethics, nor morals - IMO.

the.dark.

I don't think the OP was calling her immoral either. Though, it is not just a question of ethics to me. When I said that the man who buys that girl is evil, I was saying that he is a moral slime ball.

Woah....just a tad judgemental, aren't you.

_____________________________

(in reply to Sarahsubmits)

RE: On addiction and D/s - 7/2/2009 6:01:11 AM

Posts: 37
Joined: 7/1/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: CallaFirestormBW

quote:

If someone forced a drunk person to sign a contract, wouldn't there be some taking of advantage?

If someone put a date rape drug in a girl's drink, did she consent?

If someone is clearly impaired, can they consent in a way that has meaning?

[For those who don't know, I use the gender-neuter pronouns 'hir' and 'xhe' in my writing -- just letting folks know so it doesn't side-track/derail the discussion]

I had been attempting to hold off on responding to any of these prior to reading through existing commentary, but this one... UGH! This one just chapped my delicate posterior!

1. An individual who is FORCED to do anything has not -consented-. Consent is a VOLUNTARY PROCESS by which an individual agrees to something, of hir own free will. FORCED=COERSION, CONSENT=AGREEMENT... get it?

2. Date rape drug=Coersion unless both parties have agreed to use it -beforehand-... in which case it becomes consensual and nobody else gets to judge.

3. Who gets to decide what is "clearly impaired"? See, for me, I get to decide. If I am considering scening with someone, I get to decide whether I think playing with that person is in my best interests, and if I have an issue with hir state of impairment, I GET TO SAY NO! If xhe wants to go out and find someone -else- to play with, and can get someone ELSE to consent, hey, that's all on hir... but I take responsibility for MY choices, and the only other people whose choices I get to make are those who are subject to my authority BY THEIR OWN WILL. Now, you'll hear from some folks here that I'm a bitch and a half when it comes to the issue of consent. I don't do fantasy roleplay where people can say "Oh.... no...no.. no more.... no..more.....no.... more..... more... more..." The minute that first "no" comes out, that's it for me. But I refuse to acknowledge that you have any more right to decide who can and can't consent than the individuals involved in the direct negotiation, regardless of the issue up for discussion.

Dame Calla

But with the first example, if someone forced a drunk person to sign a contract... You go on very clearly that would be coercion. I agree!

So if a submissive is in a place where she can't see clearly, don't doms make demands all the time that they are expected to obey? If he knows she is not doing so well, isn't that coercion by your own definition. Isn't he forcing her?

(in reply to CallaFirestormBW)

RE: On addiction and D/s - 7/2/2009 6:03:17 AM

Posts: 37
Joined: 7/1/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aileen1968

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sarahsubmits

I don't think the OP was calling her immoral either. Though, it is not just a question of ethics to me. When I said that the man who buys that girl is evil, I was saying that he is a moral slime ball.

Woah....just a tad judgemental, aren't you.

Wait! Are you saying that a guy who knowingly picks up an addicted prostitute isn't a slime ball? Are you really saying that?

(in reply to Aileen1968)

RE: On addiction and D/s - 7/2/2009 6:05:55 AM

CallaFirestormBW

Posts: 3651
Joined: 6/29/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sarahsubmits

She wants me to be the one who gets pregnant for her master, because she is desperate to please him. Yes, that is crazy to ask someone?

In my 15 years as a midwife, I had the -great- good fortune to care for several women who were surrogate mothers. How is this any different? Or, perhaps, all those who choose surrogacy to have babies are insane by your standard???? Is it crazy to ask someone to be a surrogate? Is it crazy to want to -be- a surrogate?

Consent.... consent.... consent.... You don't consent to being the surrogate for this man and his girl. Cool. That's your right, but that doesn't make what they're seeking WRONG... get it?

The thing is, YOU get to decide whether or not you're interested in being someone's surrogate. Your emailer isn't looking specifically for -you-... she's looking for a surrogate mother for her Master's baby. Knee-jerk reactions. Sheesh.

Dame Calla

_____________________________

***
Said to me recently: "Look, I know you're the "voice of reason"... but dammit, I LIKE being unreasonable!!!!"

"Your mind is more interested in the challenge of becoming than the challenge of doing." Jon Benson, Bodybuilder/Trainer

(in reply to Sarahsubmits)

RE: On addiction and D/s - 7/2/2009 6:07:30 AM

Posts: 6062
Joined: 12/12/2007
From: I miss Shore, New Jersey
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sarahsubmits

So if a submissive is in a place where she can't see clearly, don't doms make demands all the time that they are expected to obey? If he knows she is not doing so well, isn't that coercion by your own definition. Isn't he forcing her?

When I entered into my relationship, I did so knowing that I was giving up certain rights. I picked someone who I trust completely to make the proper choices for me when my mind is not fully functional. He isn't forcing me to do anything. He's acting on the power that I've happily handed over to him. I'm addicted to him too. Does that make me insane? Or unable to make proper choices? Or unable to consent? Nope.

_____________________________

(in reply to Sarahsubmits)

RE: On addiction and D/s - 7/2/2009 6:09:13 AM

Posts: 6062
Joined: 12/12/2007
From: I miss Shore, New Jersey
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sarahsubmits

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aileen1968

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sarahsubmits

I don't think the OP was calling her immoral either. Though, it is not just a question of ethics to me. When I said that the man who buys that girl is evil, I was saying that he is a moral slime ball.

Woah....just a tad judgemental, aren't you.

Wait! Are you saying that a guy who knowingly picks up an addicted prostitute isn't a slime ball? Are you really saying that?

You don't know his reasons. He could be the nicest guy in the world who just needs to get laid. He walks away with a smile and she gets money. Who are you to judge?

_____________________________

(in reply to Sarahsubmits)

RE: On addiction and D/s - 7/2/2009 6:09:40 AM

RCdc

Posts: 8674
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sarahsubmits
I don't think the OP was calling her immoral either. Though, it is not just a question of ethics to me. When I said that the man who buys that girl is evil, I was saying that he is a moral slime ball.

Then I would ask you this.
A man has the ability to spend a couple of hours with a female prostitute or pro dom/sub. He is fully aware of her situation.
The female in question has a great home, has no addiction, disease free, might even have a family whom are aware of what she does and are comfortable with it. She prostitutes or pros because she gets great income from it and is damn good at it.

Is the man a moral slimeball?

A man has the ability to spend a couple of hours with a female prostitute or pro dom/sub. He is fully aware of her situation. The female in question has a house that need to be paid for that she will lose otherwise. She is bloody good at her job and comfortable with it - it pays the bills and she earns far more than she could working at a minimart or in a secretarial position.

Is the man a moral slimeball?

A man has the ability to spend a couple of hours with a female prostitute or pro dom/sub. He is fully aware of her situation. The female in question has an addiction and she funds it by prostitution or being a pro dom/sub.

Is the man a moral slimeball?

I simply wish to see your take on the three scenarios.

the.dark.

_____________________________

RC&dc

love isnt gazing into each others eyes - it's looking forward in the same direction

(in reply to Sarahsubmits)

RE: On addiction and D/s - 7/2/2009 6:09:55 AM

Posts: 37
Joined: 7/1/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: CallaFirestormBW

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sarahsubmits

She wants me to be the one who gets pregnant for her master, because she is desperate to please him. Yes, that is crazy to ask someone?

In my 15 years as a midwife, I had the -great- good fortune to care for several women who were surrogate mothers. How is this any different? Or, perhaps, all those who choose surrogacy to have babies are insane by your standard???? Is it crazy to ask someone to be a surrogate? Is it crazy to want to -be- a surrogate?

Consent.... consent.... consent.... You don't consent to being the surrogate for this man and his girl. Cool. That's your right, but that doesn't make what they're seeking WRONG... get it?

The thing is, YOU get to decide whether or not you're interested in being someone's surrogate. Your emailer isn't looking specifically for -you-... she's looking for a surrogate mother for her Master's baby. Knee-jerk reactions. Sheesh.

Dame Calla

Context context context. I think there is nothing wrong with being a surrogate mother. NO one reads here. There is a lot wrong with thinking that asking a strange woman to be one, over the net, who you don't know at all to be one and to tell her it is to please her master because you will be replacing her as his.

Knee jerk reactions Jeeesh :)

< Message edited by Sarahsubmits -- 7/2/2009 6:12:16 AM >

(in reply to CallaFirestormBW)

RE: On addiction and D/s - 7/2/2009 6:16:03 AM

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The first case is not something I would do, but I can't call it evil either.

Neither would I with the second case.

In both of those cases, she is of clear mind and consents in a meaningful way.

In the third case, I can't see how that is not taking advantage of her condition.

(in reply to RCdc)

RE: On addiction and D/s - 7/2/2009 6:17:37 AM

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Joined: 7/1/2009
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Algebra and cats

(in reply to Aileen1968)

RE: On addiction and D/s - 7/2/2009 6:18:58 AM

RCdc

Posts: 8674
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sarahsubmits

The first case is not something I would do, but I can't call it evil either.

Neither would I with the second case.

In both of those cases, she is of clear mind and consents in a meaningful way.

In the third case, I can't see how that is not taking advantage of her condition.

I understand that it's not what you would do - I was asking your thoughts on whether he was a slimeball or not. And honestly it's not a trick question.

the.dark.

_____________________________

RC&dc

love isnt gazing into each others eyes - it's looking forward in the same direction

(in reply to Sarahsubmits)

RE: On addiction and D/s - 7/2/2009 6:19:17 AM

Posts: 6062
Joined: 12/12/2007
From: I miss Shore, New Jersey
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sarahsubmits

Algebra and cats

meow squared.

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(in reply to Sarahsubmits)

RE: On addiction and D/s - 7/2/2009 6:19:17 AM

CallaFirestormBW

Posts: 3651
Joined: 6/29/2008
Status: offline

quote:

So if a submissive is in a place where she can't see clearly, don't doms make demands all the time that they are expected to obey? If he knows she is not doing so well, isn't that coercion by your own definition. Isn't he forcing her?

If a person enters into a relationship where xhe agrees, at the outset, to obey in all things, then it isn't -force-... it is honoring a pre-agreed-upon contract. It is CONSENT.

I don't get to decide what is consent and what isn't for any situation but one that I am participating in. If someone tells me they consent, then it is my -ethical obligation- to believe that they are consenting. Likewise, if they tell me they do -not- consent, I have no grounds to move forward, regardless of whether or not it appears to be socially acceptable or societally imperative that I do so.

I am going to comment more here, and I strongly suspect that you' won't like it, as I'm about to go after one of those societal "sacred cows" - I've been a ministerial counselor for over 30 years. In that time, I've seen a LOT of people who have been in what I perceived to be domestic violence situations. Some of them have come to me for help, and I've helped them find their way out, helped them put their lives back together, and for more than 80% of them, had to watch them -choose- to return to the person who they claimed, just a few hours, days, or weeks before, was battering them. I've called the cops on individuals that I believed were in domestic-abuse situations when they wouldn't leave on their own... and, over the years, have had several commit suicide because the person who was abusing them was incarcerated and they couldn't "go home". Those experiences absolved me of any sense of being able to understand -why- people choose certain relationships and stripped away any illusion I might have of what it means to do something "in someone else's best interests". How the -hell- are we supposed to know what is in another grown adult's best interests???

*shakes my head*
Dame Calla

_____________________________

***
Said to me recently: "Look, I know you're the "voice of reason"... but dammit, I LIKE being unreasonable!!!!"

"Your mind is more interested in the challenge of becoming than the challenge of doing." Jon Benson, Bodybuilder/Trainer

(in reply to Sarahsubmits)

RE: On addiction and D/s - 7/2/2009 6:22:56 AM

Posts: 6062
Joined: 12/12/2007
From: I miss Shore, New Jersey
Status: offline

Have you actually ever had a bdsm relationship or experience at all? I have a feeling you haven't and I think your opinions might just change slightly about consent once you have.

_____________________________

(in reply to Sarahsubmits)

RE: On addiction and D/s - 7/2/2009 6:23:34 AM

Posts: 37
Joined: 7/1/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sarahsubmits

The first case is not something I would do, but I can't call it evil either.

Neither would I with the second case.

In both of those cases, she is of clear mind and consents in a meaningful way.

In the third case, I can't see how that is not taking advantage of her condition.

I understand that it's not what you would do - I was asking your thoughts on whether he was a slimeball or not. And honestly it's not a trick question.

the.dark.

IN the third case he is. He is taking advantage.

(in reply to RCdc)

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