On addiction and D/s

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QuixoticErrant -> On addiction and D/s (6/23/2009 1:57:29 PM)
I just read a profile that got me thinking. It's been a while since I have written in my "kink journal" but then again, I didn't have anything particularly profound to add to it until recently. The profile that got me thinking was from a pretty young (teenage actually) girl who desperately "needs" to find a vampire Domme. Her kink is to find some woman who wants to drink her blood. I'm not writing this to go off on why I think that is a medically dangerous proposition, and I really don't care to hear vampire manifestos from those who masturbate to Anne Rice books. I really, really don't want to hear from those whiny, goth, pierced people who consider themselves to be "true vampires" and that Anne Rice is for "wannabes." If you like blood play then fine... knock yourself out, be clan Ventru or whatever, just don't try to hijack my thread and convince me it is a good idea. That's not the point of this anyway. No, what I picked up on was the word "need." Do I "need" D/s to feel complete or to feel loving? Actually no. I love D/s, it is why I am here after all, but I do not need it. Much like ice cream is something I adore, I will certainly enjoy it, but I don't need it to feel complete or to be anything. What I am proposing in this entry is the notion that the difference between healthy D/s and unhealthy D/s is much like the definition of an addiction. If you want a drink and you enjoy a drink, then by all means... If you NEED a drink, then you are an alcoholic. I am writing this about the difference between enjoying and needing a thing. I would suggest that if you need D/s to be part of your self definition then you are likely in need of the ability to self generate worth. If on the other hand, you enjoy doing it, but could still feel normal if you weren't, then that is another thing. Certainly, there are those who have been in very long and committed D/s relationships and they will quickly write how they could not imagine not being with so and so. Fair enough. A perfectly vanilla husband may feel that way about his wife too. Let's not confuse the relationship with the trappings of the relationship. Needing a person whom you love is perhaps one addiction I will not say is bad. However, needing to whip or be whipped because otherwise you are "just not you" is an issue. As with all addictions, it can lead to very self destructive behavior, like needing to have your blood drunk in order to feel complete, or needing that beating that is just a little more over the top, or needing whatever sort of more and more extreme play until we are talking about real dangers.

RCdc -> RE: On addiction and D/s (6/23/2009 2:04:25 PM)
I don't disagree with you 100%, but I don't believe that your post exercises any real comprehension of certain conditions and it certainly doesn't cover the whole needing opposites to make something an actuality. (As in - you need to meet someone who is submissive to you before you can be dominant over someone). the.dark.

QuixoticErrant -> RE: On addiction and D/s (6/23/2009 2:08:20 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark I don't disagree with you 100%, but I don't believe that your post exercises any real comprehension of certain conditions and it certainly doesn't cover the whole needing opposites to make something an actuality. (As in - you need to meet someone who is submissive to you before you can be dominant over someone). the.dark. You certainly need to have a submissive partner if you want to practice as a Dominant. As with all semantic discussions, there are many different uses of words. The point here is the use of the word need as a psychological factor rather than as a practical one. You may need a sub if you want to Dom, but you don't need a sub in front of you to know you are a top. You may need wine for certain religious functions, but you don't need wine to feel religious. I am sure you get my point.

DesFIP -> RE: On addiction and D/s (6/23/2009 2:10:50 PM)
It isn;t that I would be unable to live outside the structure of a d/s dynamic, it's that I wouldn't live as well, be as happy. Yes I could live without ever again having an ice cream, but I wouldn't be happy about spending the next 35 years forever watching other people eating it and being forbid it myself for no reason. So from that point, yes I do need it. I could live without a strong healthy relationship in my life but I wouldn't as happy all alone as I am with the right someone.

QuixoticErrant -> RE: On addiction and D/s (6/23/2009 2:15:26 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DesFIP It isn;t that I would be unable to live outside the structure of a d/s dynamic, it's that I wouldn't live as well, be as happy. Yes I could live without ever again having an ice cream, but I wouldn't be happy about spending the next 35 years forever watching other people eating it and being forbid it myself for no reason. So from that point, yes I do need it. I could live without a strong healthy relationship in my life but I wouldn't as happy all alone as I am with the right someone. And I would agree 100% Much like alcohol, I certainly would live if I never had a good scotch again. However, I would not want that to happen. Nowhere did I say that it was wrong to want BDSM or to enjoy it! Not at all. I'm saying that I am still me, even if I am doing vanilla, and I wouldn't wither away and die without D/s - even if really enjoy and want to do D/s.

Prinsexx -> RE: On addiction and D/s (6/23/2009 2:44:42 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: QuixoticErrant Needing a person whom you love is perhaps one addiction I will not say is bad. However, needing to whip or be whipped because otherwise you are "just not you" is an issue. As with all addictions, it can lead to very self destructive behavior, like needing to have your blood drunk in order to feel complete, or needing that beating that is just a little more over the top, or needing whatever sort of more and more extreme play until we are talking about real dangers. If it was limited to whipping then it would be an easy thing to arrange for any night of the week but my bdsm serves far more than that for me. It is about sensation: different and varying degrees of pain, restraint, cutting, electro sensation, choking. It is about the rise and fall of sub frenzy to sub drop and the need for a change of mindset. It is about relinquishing authority, power and responsibility. It is about emotional humiliation and the art of resilience. It is about protocol and respect. It is about love, loss and honour. Many of those things which I have listed above are missing in my relationships to my clients, or students or UM's. As the whether I need or want those things? I think it's far too fine a point to differnetiate and needs and wants are for me on a continuum. At one end is desire (extreme want) and at the other life giving need fulfillment. I do admit yes, that at times my need for restraint, let's day, or for pain, is addictive to the point of being obsessive. But I also know that when sensation is over, it's over for a while. I don't know whether it's a need I have to serve or not as I have never not been me and been able to get out of this skin, of a person who just serves, whether it be making daily bread or kneeling to suck cock. At the moment if i were to put it in addict-speak I would say I'm a recovering slave. Lol as they say: I made myself giggle over that one.

Apocalypso -> RE: On addiction and D/s (6/23/2009 2:48:55 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: QuixoticErrant Needing a person whom you love is perhaps one addiction I will not say is bad. However, needing to whip or be whipped because otherwise you are "just not you" is an issue. So what specific conditions would make a need bad or not bad for you? That seems to be crucial in terms of what you're arguing.

variation30 -> RE: On addiction and D/s (6/23/2009 3:03:32 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: QuixoticErrant No, what I picked up on was the word "need." Do I "need" D/s to feel complete or to feel loving? Actually no. I love D/s, it is why I am here after all, but I do not need it. Much like ice cream is something I adore, I will certainly enjoy it, but I don't need it to feel complete or to be anything. humans don't 'need' anything. value is subjective, even when regarding life sustaining actions. for instance, we don't 'need' food as there are plenty of individuals who forfeit food for something they value as greater because of hunger strikes, dieting, etc. we don't 'need' air as there are more than a few people who think breath play is worth forfeiting a supply of oxygen to the brain. hell, we don't even 'need' to live, as every suicide tells us that even this is not a universal need. in summary, as value is subjective, there are no needs, be they universal human needs or individual needs. we only have wants and desires. quote: What I am proposing in this entry is the notion that the difference between healthy D/s and unhealthy D/s is much like the definition of an addiction. If you want a drink and you enjoy a drink, then by all means... If you NEED a drink, then you are an alcoholic. I would suggest that addiction doesn't exist (I'm referring especially to the disease models of addiction). quote: Needing a person whom you love is perhaps one addiction I will not say is bad. However, needing to whip or be whipped because otherwise you are "just not you" is an issue. As with all addictions, it can lead to very self destructive behavior, like needing to have your blood drunk in order to feel complete, or needing that beating that is just a little more over the top, or needing whatever sort of more and more extreme play until we are talking about real dangers. who cares if others engage in risky or unhealthy behavior? not I? if they want my advice, I'll give it to them, but it is not my role to babysit the rest of humanity. and no, it is not your role to do so either. and no, it is ESPECIALLY not the role of a government to do such. and while stigmatizing such behaviors as 'unhealthy' is relatively innocuous compared to say, making moves that would eventually lead to barring those individuals to act in such a way, it is a step in that direction. any distinctions about what behavior is or is not healthy (within the realm of bdsm or not) are wholly arbitrary. one must ask oneself only one question about behaviors you view as risky or dangerous: 'is it consensual?' if the answer is yes, then it is none of your business.

LaTigresse -> RE: On addiction and D/s (6/23/2009 3:08:13 PM)
I think there are varying degrees of need. Some things humans need to live. Some things humans need to live happily. In between and beyond there, is a whole varying mixture of wants and needs. While you may not need a M/s dynamic to live, you may need it to have a happy and fullfilling relationship. I don't see that as an addiction at all.

ThatDamnedPanda -> RE: On addiction and D/s (6/23/2009 3:11:23 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: QuixoticErrant No, what I picked up on was the word "need." Do I "need" D/s to feel complete or to feel loving? Actually no. I love D/s, it is why I am here after all, but I do not need it. Your definition of the word "need" seems to shift about within your post, which has a couple of effects. First, I think it illustrates how broadly the word can be interpreted by different people in different contexts, and second, it makes it difficult to frame a relevant reply. Because it's hard to know which definition of "need" we're addressing. But if I were to pick out this specific context, my answer would be yes, absolutely. Because a D/s dynamic is the only way in which i am able to fully express romantic love in a relationship, and because I don't believe I'm truly complete as a human being unless I'm in a loving relationship, then yes - I do need D/s to feel complete and to feel loving. Do I need it in the sense that I absolutely have to have it in order to live? Obviously not, considering how many years I've been single. Do I need it in the sense that it's essential for me to achieve certain personal goals without it? Yes, absolutely. There's need, and then there's need. YMMV. To each their own. quote: ORIGINAL: QuixoticErrant What I am proposing in this entry is the notion that the difference between healthy D/s and unhealthy D/s is much like the definition of an addiction. If you want a drink and you enjoy a drink, then by all means... If you NEED a drink, then you are an alcoholic. I am writing this about the difference between enjoying and needing a thing. I would suggest that if you need D/s to be part of your self definition then you are likely in need the ability to self generate worth. If on the other hand, you enjoy doing it, but could still feel normal if you weren't, then that is another thing. I know you didn't mean any offense by that, but it does come across as pretty judgmental. I have no problem at all with any issues of self-worth, yet I'm one who believes that he needs D/s in order to be fully self-actualized. Again, we seem to be getting stuck on vague and vastly different definitons of the word "need." You seem to be arguing from a pretty narrow frame of personal reference, and assuming that anyone living in a way that you don't think is healthy for you, is living in a way that is unhealthy period. quote: ORIGINAL: QuixoticErrant Needing a person whom you love is perhaps one addiction I will not say is bad. However, needing to whip or be whipped because otherwise you are "just not you" is an issue. As with all addictions, it can lead to very self destructive behavior, like needing to have your blood drunk in order to feel complete, or needing that beating that is just a little more over the top, or needing whatever sort of more and more extreme play until we are talking about real dangers. Again, what exactly are we talking about? D/s or SM? Physical sensation, or a psychological dynamic? I'm just not following you. It's clear (in a general sense) what you're going for, but the argument you're using to get there seems to be kinda wandering back and forth a bit. Which makes it difficult to track it to the exact destination.

QuixoticErrant -> RE: On addiction and D/s (6/23/2009 3:11:24 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Apocalypso quote: ORIGINAL: QuixoticErrant Needing a person whom you love is perhaps one addiction I will not say is bad. However, needing to whip or be whipped because otherwise you are "just not you" is an issue. So what specific conditions would make a need bad or not bad for you? That seems to be crucial in terms of what you're arguing. Any time the perceived "need" replaces actual needs. For instance, you actually really do need to eat food to live. You may choose to spend all of your food money on heroine though because you feel you "need" that. That is a case meant to simply be an example to set up the principle. In terms of D/s, it is when you start craving a kink so badly that you behave in a completely self destructive manner and/or the kink itself becomes self destructive. A sure sign that one is not in danger of that is if one could walk away from it and one does not define themselves that way. These threads always get so bogged down in silly semantic arguments. So let's make this really clear for all of those who want to pull out every meaning in a dictionary that might be associated with the word "need." The distinction I am making is precisely the difference one would make between wanting a drink and needing a drink to feel that one can function even remotely normally.

ThatDamnedPanda -> RE: On addiction and D/s (6/23/2009 3:14:29 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: QuixoticErrant These threads always get so bogged down in silly semantic arguments. So let's make this really clear for all of those who want to pull out every meaning in a dictionary that might be associated with the word "need." The distinction I am making is precisely the difference one would make between wanting a drink and needing a drink to feel that one can function even remotely normally. OK then. Just how precise is that? And how - exactly - does that compare to BDSM?

QuixoticErrant -> RE: On addiction and D/s (6/23/2009 3:16:18 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: variation30 quote: ORIGINAL: QuixoticErrant No, what I picked up on was the word "need." Do I "need" D/s to feel complete or to feel loving? Actually no. I love D/s, it is why I am here after all, but I do not need it. Much like ice cream is something I adore, I will certainly enjoy it, but I don't need it to feel complete or to be anything. humans don't 'need' anything. value is subjective, even when regarding life sustaining actions. for instance, we don't 'need' food as there are plenty of individuals who forfeit food for something they value as greater because of hunger strikes, dieting, etc. we don't 'need' air as there are more than a few people who think breath play is worth forfeiting a supply of oxygen to the brain. hell, we don't even 'need' to live, as every suicide tells us that even this is not a universal need. in summary, as value is subjective, there are no needs, be they universal human needs or individual needs. we only have wants and desires. Really, I actually do need oxygen. I am pretty certain I need water and food and shelter too, in reality as well as in perception. The entire point of the thread is the ability to confuse an actual need with a perceived need. quote: What I am proposing in this entry is the notion that the difference between healthy D/s and unhealthy D/s is much like the definition of an addiction. If you want a drink and you enjoy a drink, then by all means... If you NEED a drink, then you are an alcoholic. I would suggest that addiction doesn't exist (I'm referring especially to the disease models of addiction). Really, want a smoke? Are junkies not addicted? quote: Needing a person whom you love is perhaps one addiction I will not say is bad. However, needing to whip or be whipped because otherwise you are "just not you" is an issue. As with all addictions, it can lead to very self destructive behavior, like needing to have your blood drunk in order to feel complete, or needing that beating that is just a little more over the top, or needing whatever sort of more and more extreme play until we are talking about real dangers. who cares if others engage in risky or unhealthy behavior? not I? if they want my advice, I'll give it to them, but it is not my role to babysit the rest of humanity. and no, it is not your role to do so either. and no, it is ESPECIALLY not the role of a government to do such. and while stigmatizing such behaviors as 'unhealthy' is relatively innocuous compared to say, making moves that would eventually lead to barring those individuals to act in such a way, it is a step in that direction. any distinctions about what behavior is or is not healthy (within the realm of bdsm or not) are wholly arbitrary. one must ask oneself only one question about behaviors you view as risky or dangerous: 'is it consensual?' if the answer is yes, then it is none of your business. And the inevitable "I have no personal responsibility to anyone, who are you to suggest I do?" argument... I do get sick of that one

QuixoticErrant -> RE: On addiction and D/s (6/23/2009 3:20:04 PM)
I am surprised we are getting so stuck here with semantics. If you can walk away from something and still feel normal (maybe not happy about it, but NORMAL) then you are not addicted. If on the other hand you can not walk away and feel normal, because you feel you need this thing to be normal then you are addicted.

oceanwinds -> RE: On addiction and D/s (6/23/2009 3:22:40 PM)
QuixoticErrant I find your post interesting, especially since this is where I am mentally, emotionally and physically in my life. At this point in my life, I am learning to need to be involved in my own life, more so then another. I am needing to search and discover what it means to be 100% involve with all emotions, sadness, frustration, elation, happiness, and the drive to live through myself. I have never given this concept of living life completely without a partner much thought, because in the past I felt I needed a _____ to feel whole. Now I know this has no truth for me, and doesn't hold any weight in my life. From here I can enjoy all parts of my life, which now is single. There is no need for me to go look for a ______ to fulfill me or me fulfilling their needs. Instead now I offer a different me one who isn't addicted to having someone in my life. One who is not scared to stand alone. One who doesn't think less of herself because she does stand alone. I am manifesting myself now and molding me as I see fit. With this being said, it is a difficult path, since there are not many 'mentors' out there who profess to enjoy not needing a D/s or any other type of relationship. I am a submissive and I submit all I am to the world daily, be it through my paid job, my writing, art, or sharing experiences with others. There does not need to be a Dominant in my life to make me feel submissive or to be an avenue for me to express it. I can still love, appreciate and honor someone who is in my life as well as those who come into my life, simply because these are all aspects within me. If there is no one, I am still whole. This is a path that I have been purposely taking this year, and though it is not an easy path, I would never want to avoid it. It has opened me to a greater depth of who lives in my shell-me. Thank you for creating this post and lending the opportunity for me to put my mental ideas into words.

Apocalypso -> RE: On addiction and D/s (6/23/2009 3:22:57 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: QuixoticErrant Any time the perceived "need" replaces actual needs. Then you'd have to include the need to be loved in your category of destructive addictions, surely?

QuixoticErrant -> RE: On addiction and D/s (6/23/2009 3:31:03 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: oceanwinds QuixoticErrant I find your post interesting, especially since this is where I am mentally, emotionally and physically in my life. At this point in my life, I am learning to need to be involved in my own life, more so then another. I am needing to search and discover what it means to be 100% involve with all emotions, sadness, frustration, elation, happiness, and the drive to live through myself. I have never given this concept of living life completely without a partner much thought, because in the past I felt I needed a _____ to feel whole. Now I know this has no truth for me, and doesn't hold any weight in my life. From here I can enjoy all parts of my life, which now is single. There is no need for me to go look for a ______ to fulfill me or me fulfilling their needs. Instead now I offer a different me one who isn't addicted to having someone in my life. One who is not scared to stand alone. One who doesn't think less of herself because she does stand alone. I am manifesting myself now and molding me as I see fit. With this being said, it is a difficult path, since there are not many 'mentors' out there who profess to enjoy not needing a D/s or any other type of relationship. I am a submissive and I submit all I am to the world daily, be it through my paid job, my writing, art, or sharing experiences with others. There does not need to be a Dominant in my life to make me feel submissive or to be an avenue for me to express it. I can still love, appreciate and honor someone who is in my life as well as those who come into my life, simply because these are all aspects within me. If there is no one, I am still whole. This is a path that I have been purposely taking this year, and though it is not an easy path, I would never want to avoid it. It has opened me to a greater depth of who lives in my shell-me. Thank you for creating this post and lending the opportunity for me to put my mental ideas into words. Thank you so much for writing what you did. It was precisely for someone who feels like you that I wrote this. It is so easy for a dominant to become the focus of his submissive's life in all sorts of ways that she completely negates herself. I am of the school that submission takes stregnth. I am of the school that says it must come from inside her and not be imposed by me. In a broader context there is such a thing as a deficit mentality. That means feeling "I am nothing without ____". Perhaps "____" would really make you happy, but you must see that you are still SOMETHING without it. Even broader than that is the whole definition of destructive addiction. It's really very simple. Ann addiction is destructive if it leads to self destructive behavior. Smoking is a destructive addiction. BDSM becomes a destructive addiction when one starts being self destructive with it, and can not "feel right" doing anything else.

Kalista07 -> RE: On addiction and D/s (6/23/2009 3:31:05 PM)
quote: What I am proposing in this entry is the notion that the difference between healthy D/s and unhealthy D/s is much like the definition of an addiction. If you want a drink and you enjoy a drink, then by all means... If you NEED a drink, then you are an alcoholic. My problem is that your definition of 'addiction' is not an accurate portrayal of addiction. Google the American society of addiction medicine. Kali

ThatDamnedPanda -> RE: On addiction and D/s (6/23/2009 3:31:24 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: QuixoticErrant I am surprised we are getting so stuck here with semantics. If you can walk away from something and still feel normal (maybe not happy about it, but NORMAL) then you are not addicted. If on the other hand you can not walk away and feel normal, because you feel you need this thing to be normal then you are addicted. I think the problem is it's just not as black and white as you seem to be trying to make it. It's just not that simple. There are different degrees of "need", varying widely from one person to another. There are different definitions of "normal", again varying widely from one to another. And to make it more complicated, you're comparing physical addiction, physical dependence on a drug, to a pattern of behavior. There just is no valid comparison between a physical addiction and a behavioral pattern. The physical effects of heroin withdrawal have nothing at all in common with a self-destructive way of thinking, other than that they both often lead to bad outcomes. Again, I see the general direction you're trying to go with this, but it's not just holding together.

QuixoticErrant -> RE: On addiction and D/s (6/23/2009 3:32:20 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Kalista07 quote: What I am proposing in this entry is the notion that the difference between healthy D/s and unhealthy D/s is much like the definition of an addiction. If you want a drink and you enjoy a drink, then by all means... If you NEED a drink, then you are an alcoholic. My problem is that your definition of 'addiction' is not an accurate portrayal of addiction. Google the American society of addiction medicine. Kali My problem is with everyone who clearly sees my point and nonetheless needs to turn this into highschool debate club over silly semantics.

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