RE: War for Oil?

Join Our Community

Collarchat.com

Home Login Search

RE: War for Oil?

View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest

All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Dungeon of Political and Religious Discussion >> RE: War for Oil?

Page: << < prev 1 2 [3] 4 5 next > >>

Login

Message

<< Older Topic Newer Topic >>

RE: War for Oil? - 7/1/2009 7:17:20 PM

Posts: 2068
Joined: 1/4/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

quote:

ORIGINAL: blacksword404

Whether you oppose the decision or not, you are responsible. The government speaks for you. Saying you opposed a decision does not take away your responsibility in it. Unless you are not a citizen. In which case they don't speak for you.

How so ? Im sure all the right wingers here wont be too happy to hear they are responsibile for President Obamas decisions. Although I love the irony of that thought.

We vote a government into power, they are then responsible for what they do. If they do the wrong thing we vote them out, or at least we should.

They speak for you.

The government gets into agreements with other countries and entities. If there is money owed it is the people ultimately that owe.

_____________________________

Don't fight him. Embrace your inner asshole.

Tu fellas magnus penum meum...iterum

Genuine catnip/kryptonite.
Ego sum erus.

The capacity to learn is a gift, the ability to learn a skill, the willingness to learn a choice. Dune HH

(in reply to Politesub53)

RE: War for Oil? - 7/1/2009 7:31:39 PM

Posts: 2068
Joined: 1/4/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

The rules of warfare and aquiring power have not changed in thousands of years. The same strategies and tactics described by Sun Tzu, can be applied on any battlefield. Nations still bully with impunity, they just do it a little more selectively.

quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy
The battlefield has changed. The old rules no longer wholly apply. Nations used to be able to bully with impunity if their military was capable enough......that is changing too.

He who wishes to fight must first count the cost. When you engage in actual fighting, if victory is long in coming, then men's weapons will grow dull and their ardor will be dampened. If you lay siege to a town, you will exhaust your strength. Again, if the campaign is protracted, the resources of the State will not be equal to the strain. Now, when your weapons are dulled, your ardor dampened, your strength exhausted and your treasure spent, other chieftains will spring up to take advantage of your extremity. Then no man, however wise, will be able to avert the consequences that must ensue... In war, then, let your great object be victory, not lengthy campaigns.
-Sun Tzu, the Art of War

The Iraq war would have went much better had The Art of War been followed more. Those borders should have been sealed first. We need to increase our ability to change with the lay of the land.

27. All men can see the tactics whereby I conquer, but what none can see is the strategy out of which

victory is evolved.

28. Do not repeat the tactics which have gained you one victory, but let your methods be regulated by

the infinite variety of circumstances.

29. Military tactics are like unto water; for water in its natural course runs away from high places and

hastens downwards.

30. So in war, the way is to avoid what is strong and to strike at what is weak.

31. Water shapes its course according to the nature of the ground over which it flows; the soldier

works out his victory in relation to the foe whom he is facing.

32. Therefore, just as water retains no constant shape, so in warfare there are no constant conditions.

33. He who can modify his tactics in relation to his opponent and thereby succeed in winning, may be

called a heaven-born captain.

_____________________________

Don't fight him. Embrace your inner asshole.

Tu fellas magnus penum meum...iterum

Genuine catnip/kryptonite.
Ego sum erus.

The capacity to learn is a gift, the ability to learn a skill, the willingness to learn a choice. Dune HH

(in reply to OrionTheWolf)

RE: War for Oil? - 7/2/2009 1:15:36 AM

Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: blacksword404

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

quote:

ORIGINAL: blacksword404

They speak for you.

The government gets into agreements with other countries and entities. If there is money owed it is the people ultimately that owe.

Just because they represent me, it doesnt mean they speak for me.

(in reply to blacksword404)

RE: War for Oil? - 7/2/2009 5:31:25 AM

Posts: 724
Joined: 6/7/2009
Status: offline

No invading Russia to steal it's gas would result in a third world war polite sub so the loss would far exceed the gain. The reason that we could no longer simply keep paying for it was because oil reserves are running out, Saddam had under his control some of the largest deposts of crude oil left in the world under his direct control and presumably it was decided that he was not a leader that the west wanted enjoying such power over us.

(in reply to Politesub53)

RE: War for Oil? - 7/2/2009 6:37:07 AM

Posts: 2068
Joined: 1/4/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Just because they represent me, it doesnt mean they speak for me.

Yea they do. Maybe not you personal view. But your collective national view. When another country wants to know what your countrymen think about a particular subject the ask you representatives. They don't run around and ask people of the street. They ask your representatives because they speak for you.

If you say no they don't. Then who does speak for you and your countrymen? What person or group of people have you selected to be your voice?

_____________________________

Don't fight him. Embrace your inner asshole.

Tu fellas magnus penum meum...iterum

Genuine catnip/kryptonite.
Ego sum erus.

The capacity to learn is a gift, the ability to learn a skill, the willingness to learn a choice. Dune HH

(in reply to Politesub53)

RE: War for Oil? - 7/2/2009 9:54:24 AM

Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: blacksword404

If you say no they don't. Then who does speak for you and your countrymen? What person or group of people have you selected to be your voice?

They dont speak for me, because I didnt vote for them in either of the last two UK elections. By your logic, if a racist group got into power in the US, they would speak for you. Are you okay with that ?

Starbuck, so we can steal from weaker nations....Way to go with that bullshit.

Defending Kuwait from Iraq was one thing, going to war over Iraqi oil is quite another. Iran has more oil than Iraq, So im guessing you are happy to invade there next.

(in reply to blacksword404)

RE: War for Oil? - 7/2/2009 10:22:21 AM

Posts: 724
Joined: 6/7/2009
Status: offline

We do steal from weaker nations constantly polite sub. Defending Kuwait from Iraq to safeguard oil is simply an extension of that. I'm not ''happy'' to invade anywhere certainly not Iran but if it's the difference between us controlling a global commodity/neccesity or a regime that is openly hostile then I will back us every time.

(in reply to Politesub53)

RE: War for Oil? - 7/2/2009 10:24:07 AM

Posts: 724
Joined: 6/7/2009
Status: offline

Re blacksword's point, polite sub if a rascist party got into power then they would speak for you democracy means that you accept you live with majority rule not you accept the leadership when they condone your personal beliefs only. your choice then would be either accept democracy or leave the country.

(in reply to Starbuck09)

RE: War for Oil? - 7/2/2009 10:42:12 AM

Posts: 14614
Joined: 8/23/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: blacksword404

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Just because they represent me, it doesnt mean they speak for me.

Yea they do. Maybe not you personal view. But your collective national view. When another country wants to know what your countrymen think about a particular subject the ask you representatives. They don't run around and ask people of the street. They ask your representatives because they speak for you.

If you say no they don't. Then who does speak for you and your countrymen? What person or group of people have you selected to be your voice?

So then what you are saying is we have no individual voice other than our vote.

If we happen to be born in a certain country with a particular political system then our government is our voice and we need to abide by that?

Which then brings us to the question of how you feel about the events in Iran.

(in reply to blacksword404)

RE: War for Oil? - 7/2/2009 10:44:22 AM

Posts: 724
Joined: 6/7/2009
Status: offline

Not if you are born into any country rule my life only if you are born into a democracy.

(in reply to rulemylife)

RE: War for Oil? - 7/2/2009 10:46:43 AM

Posts: 14614
Joined: 8/23/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Starbuck09

Re blacksword's point, polite sub if a rascist party got into power then they would speak for you democracy means that you accept you live with majority rule not you accept the leadership when they condone your personal beliefs only. your choice then would be either accept democracy or leave the country.

I'm not sure I agree with that definition of democracy, in that it does not require conformity and in fact encourages the opposite.

(in reply to Starbuck09)

RE: War for Oil? - 7/2/2009 10:49:55 AM

Posts: 724
Joined: 6/7/2009
Status: offline

Sorry I don't quite understand rule my life are you saying democracy doesn't require conformity or that my definition encourages it? Democracy flourishes when lots of different viewpoints are debated and on offer for the public to vote for [one of the problems democracy in Bitain faces at the moment] but you still accept by choosing to live in a democracy that you live by majority rule whether you agree with the majority or not.

(in reply to rulemylife)

RE: War for Oil? - 7/2/2009 10:55:30 AM

Posts: 14614
Joined: 8/23/2004
Status: offline

Yes we do, by not starting violence or civil unrest, but since when has any party in either country not politically opposed the views of the majority party of the moment?

(in reply to Starbuck09)

RE: War for Oil? - 7/2/2009 10:58:36 AM

Posts: 724
Joined: 6/7/2009
Status: offline

It's allright to oppose those views and certainly they should be hotly debated but you still have to accept in a democracy that the ruling party speaks for you whether you agree with it or not. I didn't vote for labour but I choose to live in a democracy where it is part of the process that they can attain power so if they do I have to basically suck it up or move to a country where such a party cannot get into power. You can't only be for democracy when it's your views which are in power.

(in reply to rulemylife)

RE: War for Oil? - 7/2/2009 11:08:49 AM

Posts: 14614
Joined: 8/23/2004
Status: offline

While that's a good point, the reality lies somewhere in the middle.

Look at what happened with Enron, for example.

If I had been employed by them would I have shared in the responsibility for the fraud that took place, even if I had no knowledge of it, by sheer virtue of being a part of the company?

(in reply to Starbuck09)

RE: War for Oil? - 7/2/2009 11:18:28 AM

Posts: 724
Joined: 6/7/2009
Status: offline

No I don't hold anybody in Enron responsible but for those who directly knew about or participated in the fraud. Government though is different I only believe when a government is proved to have mislead it's people that there is any case for not being responsible for it's decisions. owever that only becomes an issue if a government's lies are exposed. Such a situation happened in Britain the labour government was proved to have taken us to war mendaciously and we had our chance to be responsible and throw them out of office. But we didn't we voted for them again so now we don't have a leg to stand on. Those who voted for them have to live with their choice and those who did'nt have a choice to make [or more accurately have made] to choose to live in a country with a government that has lied in which case again they have to accept that they are implicitly allowing this administration to speak for them or leave the country. I'm not saying that is an easy choice it is not but being free is hard it means that you and you alone are responsible for your actions you can't pass the buck to those in power. That is the both the benefit and the bane of not living under a tyranny.

(in reply to rulemylife)

RE: War for Oil? - 7/2/2009 11:28:58 AM

Posts: 14614
Joined: 8/23/2004
Status: offline

You keep bringing this back to the only choice being live with it or leave, which is not valid.

And also which is the beauty of the system.

Just like the weather, wait a little while and it will inevitably change.

(in reply to Starbuck09)

RE: War for Oil? - 7/2/2009 11:35:00 AM

Posts: 724
Joined: 6/7/2009
Status: offline

Oh absolutely it will change eventually and that is certainly the beauty but in the meantime you have to accept those in power speak for you whether you agree with them or not. That's the price of a democracy. The pay off like you say is that one day those in power might not only speak for you but you agree with what they are saying without any resort to bloodshed.

(in reply to rulemylife)

RE: War for Oil? - 7/2/2009 11:49:14 AM

Posts: 14614
Joined: 8/23/2004
Status: offline

So then, you are implying I have personal responsibility for Abu Ghraib and every other less than savory effort of my government in the history of its existence.

Which then means you must suffer greatly on a daily basis for the sins of British imperialism.

(in reply to Starbuck09)

RE: War for Oil? - 7/2/2009 12:04:09 PM

Posts: 724
Joined: 6/7/2009
Status: offline

I don't suffer for imperialism because it happened before I was born so it was beyond my ability to affect one way or another but I personally hold myself partially responsible for everything my government has done no matter how unsavoury I can't just cherry pick what I am and am not culpable in. And yes rule my life I also think that you personally are responsible [if only in a very small way] for Abu Ghraib

(in reply to rulemylife)

Page: << < prev 1 2 [3] 4 5 next > >>

All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Dungeon of Political and Religious Discussion >> RE: War for Oil?

Page: << < prev 1 2 [3] 4 5 next > >>

Jump to:

New Messages	No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages	Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages	Locked w/o New Messages

Post New Thread

Reply to Message

Post New Poll

Submit Vote

Delete My Own Post

Delete My Own Thread

Rate Posts

Collarchat.com © 2024

Terms of Service

0.094