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Cap and Trade for Dummies/ Cap and Trade 101 - 6/30/2009 10:31:15 PM

MzMia

Posts: 5333
Joined: 7/30/2004
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Okay, many of us don't really understand what all this "Cap and Trade" is about.
I found this website from the EPA that has a section called Cap and Trade 101, I am
finding it very informative.
I have to admit, I will need to read more before I fully understand the ramifications of Cap and Trade.

Cap and Trade 101 | Cap and Trade | US EPA

Since, the bill has passed, how do you think this will affect us here in America?

_____________________________

Namaste'
To Each His/Her Own
"DENIAL ain't just a river in Egypt." Mark Twain

What's your favorite fetish?
"My partner's whisper"--bloomswell

Post #: 1

RE: Cap and Trade for Dummies/ Cap and Trade 101 - 6/30/2009 11:17:16 PM

DomKen

Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline

Air pollution will decrease. Forward thinking utilities will make more profits. A lot of whining will be done by the coal industry.

(in reply to MzMia)

Post #: 2

RE: Cap and Trade for Dummies/ Cap and Trade 101 - 7/1/2009 1:12:33 AM

DemonKia

Posts: 5521
Joined: 10/13/2007
From: Chico, Nor-Cali
Status: offline

FR, after read thru

Kinda tangential to the topic, maybe, but I find it interesting how various businesses expect / are expected to be 'perpetual & unchanging' in a world of change. Like the Big 3 US automakers, a sense of entitlement to stasis & incredulity that things won't stay the same forever. Individuals can get tossed by the winds of change, but businesses have some kind of immunity?

As to the OP:

Short answer: cap & trade is the 'inferior' alternative to carbon taxes offered up by the business sector to step around carbon taxes. Carbon taxes were the preference of the enviros, but they're politically unpalatable, so industry came up with cap & trade. Or, at least, that's my sum up. I'm interested in seeing where this thread goes.

I don't expect much change in the short run. & given our foot-dragging over moving into the future, I expect we may lose our head-of-the-pack thing when it comes to cutting edge tech . . .. ..

< Message edited by DemonKia -- 7/1/2009 1:14:33 AM >

_____________________________

Snarko ergo sum.

The Verbossinator

(in reply to DomKen)

Post #: 3

RE: Cap and Trade for Dummies/ Cap and Trade 101 - 7/1/2009 4:50:24 AM

servantforuse

Posts: 6363
Joined: 3/8/2006
Status: offline

This bill has not yet passed. It hasn't gone to the Senate. I predict that it won't make it through there. That will be a good thing.

(in reply to DemonKia)

Post #: 4

RE: Cap and Trade for Dummies/ Cap and Trade 101 - 7/1/2009 5:10:17 AM

xBullx

Posts: 4206
Joined: 10/8/2005
Status: offline

It is the beginning of you being charged to breathing.

We need less government, not more.

I heard an interesting satistic, every ton of carbon not put up by US industry is two tons elsewhere. US industry will leave. That and you end up paying the extra anyway and Sam I am ends up with a larger budget to waste yet more of our money.

A Contitutionalist says this.

If you people want more government Europe is very lax on immigrations...

_____________________________

Live well,

Bull

I'm not an asshole; I'm simply resolute...

"A Republic, If You Can Keep It."

Caution: My humor is a bit skewed.

(in reply to servantforuse)

Post #: 5

RE: Cap and Trade for Dummies/ Cap and Trade 101 - 7/1/2009 5:28:12 AM

Sanity

Posts: 22039
Joined: 6/14/2006
From: Nampa, Idaho USA
Status: offline

If by coal industry you mean a lot of poor people who depend on coal for jobs and affordable power and manufactured goods, you may have a point.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Air pollution will decrease. Forward thinking utilities will make more profits. A lot of whining will be done by the coal industry.

_____________________________

Inside Every Liberal Is A Totalitarian Screaming To Get Out

(in reply to DomKen)

Post #: 6

RE: Cap and Trade for Dummies/ Cap and Trade 101 - 7/1/2009 6:41:10 AM

rulemylife

Posts: 14614
Joined: 8/23/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: xBullx

It is the beginning of you being charged to breathing.

I think that began a long time ago, if you take health care costs into consideration.

America's Most Polluted Cities - Forbes.com

The annual report--State of the Air 2009--found that six in 10 Americans live in counties where ozone or particle pollution has reached dangerous levels.

Both types of pollution can be deadly and have been linked to worsening respiratory conditions like asthma, emphysema and bronchitis, and there is evidence that particle pollution increases risk of heart attacks and strokes.

(in reply to xBullx)

Post #: 7

RE: Cap and Trade for Dummies/ Cap and Trade 101 - 7/1/2009 7:12:21 AM

Sanity

Posts: 22039
Joined: 6/14/2006
From: Nampa, Idaho USA
Status: offline

You misunderstand. By "breathe" he meant freedom, and I'm pretty sure Bull was once an avid Obama believer.

This could mean trouble for the Democrat party...

_____________________________

Inside Every Liberal Is A Totalitarian Screaming To Get Out

(in reply to rulemylife)

Post #: 8

RE: Cap and Trade for Dummies/ Cap and Trade 101 - 7/1/2009 7:23:32 AM

rulemylife

Posts: 14614
Joined: 8/23/2004
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I may have, but he'll have to elaborate on that if I did.

It seems to me his argument was much the same as yours, that short-term economic benefits outweigh the long term effects to the environment and the subsequent economic costs those effects will have.

(in reply to Sanity)

Post #: 9

RE: Cap and Trade for Dummies/ Cap and Trade 101 - 7/1/2009 7:30:53 AM

MzMia

Posts: 5333
Joined: 7/30/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: servantforuse

This bill has not yet passed. It hasn't gone to the Senate. I predict that it won't make it through there. That will be a good thing.

I stand corrected then, I am not sure HOW I feel about this bill, not sure if I want it to pass or not.
I am all for cleaner air, but how much will this really change things?

_____________________________

Namaste'
To Each His/Her Own
"DENIAL ain't just a river in Egypt." Mark Twain

What's your favorite fetish?
"My partner's whisper"--bloomswell

(in reply to servantforuse)

Post #: 10

RE: Cap and Trade for Dummies/ Cap and Trade 101 - 7/1/2009 8:30:41 AM

pahunkboy

Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MzMia

quote:

ORIGINAL: servantforuse

This bill has not yet passed. It hasn't gone to the Senate. I predict that it won't make it through there. That will be a good thing.

I stand corrected then, I am not sure HOW I feel about this bill, not sure if I want it to pass or not.
I am all for cleaner air, but how much will this really change things?

Check out the movie end game.

Cap and trade is a tool to extract money out of people. Nothing will be cleaner... just more expensive. It is a global tax on us, which wrecks our sovereignty.

Cap and trades means EUGENICS.     Some peoples life has value -and other lifes do not have value. ALOT of people are going to die before 2013.   and it is presumptuous for YOU to conclude that you will be among those chosen to live.

Everything they are doing- points to the massive human blood that will be spilled - to fertile the earth to give the rulers even MORE power.

The point that the environment might be less polluted is a distraction.    Life IS carbon. Carbon is now contraband- which renders life itself to be contraband.

(in reply to MzMia)

Post #: 11

RE: Cap and Trade for Dummies/ Cap and Trade 101 - 7/1/2009 8:31:36 AM

mastrcmmdr

Posts: 66
Joined: 4/8/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MzMia

Okay, many of us don't really understand what all this "Cap and Trade" is about.
I found this website from the EPA that has a section called Cap and Trade 101, I am
finding it very informative.
I have to admit, I will need to read more before I fully understand the ramifications of Cap and Trade.

Cap and Trade 101 | Cap and Trade | US EPA

Since, the bill has passed, how do you think this will affect us here in America?

Its very simple, you dont need EPA PR. Its a tax, nothing more, nothing less. A tax that will hit every single thing you buy. whether you make >250k or less than 25k.

(in reply to MzMia)

Post #: 12

RE: Cap and Trade for Dummies/ Cap and Trade 101 - 7/1/2009 8:57:57 AM

MarsBonfire

Posts: 1034
Joined: 3/6/2005
Status: offline

We need lees government, Bull? Really?

We need less regulation of the Wall Street, you think? So that the conniving brokers there can keep trading "ghost derivatives"?

Do we need less in the way of emergency services? That way we can ignore the NEXT American city that faces disaster too?

What utter bullshit that GOP catchphrase is!

(in reply to pahunkboy)

Post #: 13

RE: Cap and Trade for Dummies/ Cap and Trade 101 - 7/1/2009 9:07:26 AM

pahunkboy

Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline

I agree with Bull. We need less government.

The government is incompetent to solve any problem. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L_7mPS6TzEA

No one has killed more people over the course of history then governments!!!

The outcome of government power- can only ever be- in the end- as a threat to any lesser group of people.

The liberals did not "win", the liberals are merely a tool for the all seeing eye to grab all the power.

Our government has done more death and suffering then many governments. It is NOT the government that makes a country great- it is the people themself.

Obama IS George Bushes 3rd term.

anyhow- start by reading these bills. I sure wont sign anything I haven't read.

(in reply to MarsBonfire)

Post #: 14

RE: Cap and Trade for Dummies/ Cap and Trade 101 - 7/1/2009 11:20:04 AM

Sanity

Posts: 22039
Joined: 6/14/2006
From: Nampa, Idaho USA
Status: offline

As has been pointed out on multiple occasions now, cap and tax will have a deleterious effect on the environment.

One of the reasons I write that is Obama's cap and tax plan will push industry away from the relatively clean and tightly regulated United States and into countries like China and Mexico where they can literally burn tires or recycled computer parts to generate steam turbine power. Anything goes in many of those places...

If you're really that concerned about the environment you may want to take a closer look at cap and tax.

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

I may have, but he'll have to elaborate on that if I did.

It seems to me his argument was much the same as yours, that short-term economic benefits outweigh the long term effects to the environment and the subsequent economic costs those effects will have.

_____________________________

Inside Every Liberal Is A Totalitarian Screaming To Get Out

(in reply to rulemylife)

Post #: 15

RE: Cap and Trade for Dummies/ Cap and Trade 101 - 7/1/2009 12:11:23 PM

rfd1

Posts: 53
Joined: 2/26/2009
Status: offline

The easiest way to preserve the American ecological system is to IMMEDIATELY HALT ALL IMMIGRATION into our nation.
Simple, effective, but they won't do it, they want it this way.
It will be a Pyrrhic victory.

(in reply to Sanity)

Post #: 16

RE: Cap and Trade for Dummies/ Cap and Trade 101 - 7/1/2009 12:30:40 PM

ThatDamnedPanda

Posts: 6060
Joined: 1/26/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: rfd1

The easiest way to preserve the American ecological system is to IMMEDIATELY HALT ALL IMMIGRATION into our nation.
Simple, effective, but they won't do it, they want it this way.
It will be a Pyrrhic victory.

What does that have to do with the environment? You think they're throwing too many taco wrappers out the windows of their pickup trucks?

_____________________________

Panda, panda, burning bright
In the forest of the night
What immortal hand or eye
Made you all black and white and roly-poly like that?

(in reply to rfd1)

Post #: 17

RE: Cap and Trade for Dummies/ Cap and Trade 101 - 7/1/2009 12:33:12 PM

pahunkboy

Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: rfd1

The easiest way to preserve the American ecological system is to IMMEDIATELY HALT ALL IMMIGRATION into our nation.
Simple, effective, but they won't do it, they want it this way.
It will be a Pyrrhic victory.

except for the migration is out of America, no longer to America. Recall that Mexico broke with Spain for some of the same reasons the America broke with England. Also- we were involved in making Mexico bad. They would have done fine with out us. Our banks get MX deep in debt- and the country was gutted in the 80s. So- the "them" and "us" only goes so far. (google Mexico 80s, default) US banks don't loan other countries money to be nice. Not any more then they loan us 29% credit cards... to be nice.

However everything is planned for us by the elite. So of course, some will say close the borders.

(in reply to rfd1)

Post #: 18

RE: Cap and Trade for Dummies/ Cap and Trade 101 - 7/1/2009 10:56:24 PM

popeye1250

Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MarsBonfire

We need lees government, Bull? Really?

We need less regulation of the Wall Street, you think? So that the conniving brokers there can keep trading "ghost derivatives"?

Do we need less in the way of emergency services? That way we can ignore the NEXT American city that faces disaster too?

What utter bullshit that GOP catchphrase is!

Gee Mars, "the govt" didn't do a very good job watching over Wall St or the bankers or the insurance companies, so far did they?
They can't even secure our borders or enforce our immigration laws.

_____________________________

"But Your Honor, this is not a Jury of my Peers, these people are all decent, honest, law-abiding citizens!"

(in reply to MarsBonfire)

Post #: 19

RE: Cap and Trade for Dummies/ Cap and Trade 101 - 7/2/2009 4:10:37 AM

housesub4you

Posts: 1879
Joined: 4/2/2008
Status: offline

Actually religion has cause more deaths than governements

(in reply to pahunkboy)

Post #: 20

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