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RE: Weakness or Benefit???? - 7/11/2009 6:59:24 AM   
nephandi


Posts: 4470
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From: Cold and magickal Norway in a town near Bergen!
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quote:

I would hate to make a blanket statement and imply that any Dominant who has not bottomed, is not a good Dominant, but generally speaking i have to say, in my own experience, it has been a Benefit.


Forgive me but that is like saying that a gay person who have never fucked someone of the opposite sex can not be a good gay lover. Being Dominant or submissive is more of a sexual orientation. I do not see why one have to have done both.

That being said I see no problem with serving someone as a sub who have been a sub them self. But I think I might find it a bit difficult to do so with a switch. Not that is is something wrong with switches, but for me, pure dominance is what attracts me, so while what someone have done in the past do not matter to me, what they do now is important, and I like Doms to be as dominant as possible.

I wish you all well


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RE: Weakness or Benefit???? - 7/11/2009 7:01:35 AM   
sirsholly


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quote:

my local BDSM community organization has a protocol which requires newbie Dom/mes to spend a brief period of time in service to another.
in that case, does the sub spend time as a Dom?

As to the OP's question...i cannot see how the Dom experiencing time as a sub would be detrimental, but i do not think it is necessary.


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RE: Weakness or Benefit???? - 7/11/2009 7:17:29 AM   
Mercnbeth


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quote:

The reason for this, was because the group found that many Dom/mes were unappreciative of, and even irresponsible for the power given to them by others.

How does one lead to the other?

Consider a D/s couple, and apply the same sensation. Bend them over a spanking bench and whack them with one of Simply Michael's paddles. The Dom will get up and punch you, the sub will squirm and raise their butt begging for another. You think the same sensation was processed the same way? The reason people want different things, some others would find "disgusting" is because they emotionally, and mentally process the exact same sensation differently.

But you're not addressing that, your group is trying to change a person's relationship skills. How does being submissive relate to appreciating someone who facilitates a sensation you enjoy? There is service involved; whether you are an 'ass' or appreciate a person who gave you the opportunity is contingent upon you as a person, not any prior experience.

Edited to add:
quote:

I really want the opinion of subs/slaves...


Just look how that worked out?

< Message edited by Mercnbeth -- 7/11/2009 7:20:12 AM >

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RE: Weakness or Benefit???? - 7/11/2009 7:55:50 AM   
lovingpet


Posts: 4270
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Status: offline 		It doesn't affect my opinion either way provided it was a choice rather than some show put on to gain acceptance. Some people start on one path only to discover they belong on another. What's the harm in self discovery? Further, past submission does NOT make one a switch automatically. If submitting is of absolutely no interest, then the person is unimodal. If there are still desires to indulge in both (whether it is acted upon or NEEDED or not), this is a switch. I also would respect the hell out of someone who could bottom without it dimishing their dominance (like for learning a new skill and experiencing it for themselves perhaps). They may not be processing the same, but they are interested enough in the well being of their partners and their expertise to place themselves in that positon.

Strength or weakness to me has more to do with character than position.

lovingpet

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RE: Weakness or Benefit???? - 7/11/2009 8:02:33 AM   
slavekal


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RE: Weakness or Benefit???? - 7/11/2009 8:12:35 AM   
IrishMist


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Status: offline 		I would have to say a weakness. I could never submit to a man who I knew had willingly submitted to another just for the fun, or sexual gratification of it. Sorry, but, in my eyes, that's not much of a man.

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RE: Weakness or Benefit???? - 7/11/2009 8:29:10 AM   
angelikaJ


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quote:

ORIGINAL: IrishMist

I would have to say a weakness. I could never submit to a man who I knew had willingly submitted to another just for the fun, or sexual gratification of it. Sorry, but, in my eyes, that's not much of a man.


People aren't supposed to evolve and grow?

It seems as though you are proposing a very static world.

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RE: Weakness or Benefit???? - 7/11/2009 8:34:19 AM   
IrishMist


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quote:

ORIGINAL: angelikaJ

quote:

ORIGINAL: IrishMist

I would have to say a weakness. I could never submit to a man who I knew had willingly submitted to another just for the fun, or sexual gratification of it. Sorry, but, in my eyes, that's not much of a man.


People aren't supposed to evolve and grow?

It seems as though you are proposing a very static world.

It's my world though. I don't tell you how to perceive yours, now do I?

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Profile   Post #: 28
RE: Weakness or Benefit???? - 7/11/2009 8:39:17 AM   
SimplyMichael


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Status: offline 		If it is a "requirement" to join the group, it isn't submitting to anything, no more than I "submit" to a cop who pulls me over and I don't tell him what an asshole I think he is.

While I can see the merits of the idea ONLY in that it would weed out SOME of those with overly large ego's, it wouldn't weed out all the nuts.

Not only that, it is like a pyramid scheme, just I want to be the FIRST one in the group so everyone new has to submit to me...what a fucking scam.

And as a few have pointed out, do the subs start out as dominants?

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Profile   Post #: 29
RE: Weakness or Benefit???? - 7/11/2009 8:45:20 AM   
SimplyMichael


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quote:

ORIGINAL: IrishMist

I would have to say a weakness. I could never submit to a man who I knew had willingly submitted to another just for the fun, or sexual gratification of it. Sorry, but, in my eyes, that's not much of a man.


Male children submit to their parents, to teachers and whatever else.  Do you really believe if they have submitted somewhere they are not much of a man?  So they can't be ex military, cause well they submit to higher authority, frankly I think it is a bit pathalogical if someone doesn't submit to anything, social structure, some form of morality, etc.

I can see not wanting a switch but take me, when I was new, I bottomed to someone because of social pressure more than anything else, it didn't do anything for me.  Do you really see me as "not much of a man" because of that?  Don't sugar coat your words, I am really curious about your honest opinion.

How do you feel about a dominant exposing their vulnerable sides, admitting weaknesses and the like, same view? 

(in reply to IrishMist)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: Weakness or Benefit???? - 7/11/2009 8:51:24 AM   
CarrieO


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quote:

ORIGINAL: angelikaJ

quote:

ORIGINAL: IrishMist

I would have to say a weakness. I could never submit to a man who I knew had willingly submitted to another just for the fun, or sexual gratification of it. Sorry, but, in my eyes, that's not much of a man.


People aren't supposed to evolve and grow?

It seems as though you are proposing a very static world.


These two statements caught my eye.  I agree with IrishMist, I would have little respect for a man that chose to submit to another just for fun or, in the case of the OP, to be part of a group.

As a switch, I love angelikaJ's statement..."People aren't suppose to evolve and grow?"  My journey through WIITWD has been nothing but evolving, growing and changing.  However, that was my choice...my path.
To make a dominant experience submission because "it'll be good for you to walk in another's shoes" or in order to be part of a group is false submission, IMO, and I'm not sure where the value of the experience would be found.

If, however, it was their choice to submit in order to grow/evolve...that's a horse of a different color and one I would be interested in!

< Message edited by CarrieO -- 7/11/2009 8:53:19 AM >

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RE: Weakness or Benefit???? - 7/11/2009 9:06:14 AM   
barelynangel


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quote:

take me, when I was new, I bottomed to someone because of social pressure more than anything else, it didn't do anything for me.  Do you really see me as "not much of a man" because of that? 


In the sense submitting is being spoken about here and where i am coming from with regard to my understanding of M/s (not D/s) --- yeah, that knowledge for me would tell me you would most likely be incapable of mastering and enslaving women like me,  because you cave in ignorance to social pressure rather than seek knowledge before doing anything and remaining true to who you believe yourself to be.  The fact that you caved to social pressure because of your ignorance tells me you are more of a follower in general than a leader.  Which again, would tell me you would not be capable of reaching the expectations i have for Men whom i see in the light of which is being spoken about in this thraed. So in the sense that is being spoken about --- you would be in the larger playing field of Men who can be a dominant man i presume, you would simply be off my radar as insignificant,  you would not reach my playing field due to the fact you are malleable as well as capable of being manipulated so to speak when it comes to being accepted.  And Men like that grins, i instinctively take advantage of unless i have a stronger force such as a Master to set the expectations and standards of slavery for me. 

Some women are willing to accept what you did in the name of being part of something, some women would not.  What you would be outside of the sense we are speaking -- i have no clue.  You have to understand, there are a couple types of Men in a woman's life, ones who are friends and that is all they can be, and Men who are capable of being her Master or Dom in this case. 

So to me, yes, if i had that knowledge of you, my brain would catagorize you accordingly.  Right or wrong, submission and slavery is a survival reaction and instinct in many women, therefore all knowledge gets inputed into the whole and to know a Man is capable of caving when the going gets tough or in your case social pressure -- she will measure that against what she seeks and judge you accordingly and seek what she needs -- many times its not a Man willing and able to cave to a stronger force but one who stands for what he believes and she knows by placing herself under him -- she will have a better chance at surviving because it will take a great force to strip her from him.  This may not be the case for all women who submit to a will greater than their own.  You asked "Don't sugar coat your words, I am really curious about your honest opinion"  And that's all i can give you. 

angel

< Message edited by barelynangel -- 7/11/2009 9:10:21 AM >

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RE: Weakness or Benefit???? - 7/11/2009 9:08:33 AM   
nephandi


Posts: 4470
Joined: 9/23/2005
From: Cold and magickal Norway in a town near Bergen!
Status: offline 		Greetings

quote:

in that case, does the sub spend time as a Dom?

As to the OP's question...i cannot see how the Dom experiencing time as a sub would be detrimental, but i do not think it is necessary.


I do see it as detrimental. It is like I have said before like asking a straight person to have a gay relationship for a while or a gay person to have a straight relationship for a while, just to find out if they really are straight or gay. Being Dominant or submissive is not a hobby, it is a part of the personality, how the hell would it benefit a Dominant to go against his or her own nature to be a sub for a while, he or she will not get the same feeling of joy from serving or experience anything the same way as a submissive do. At best they would just go through the motions and accept what they have to do to gain entrance to club that was talked about, at worst it makes them feel like, like a lesbian having to take a big hunk of man meat up her privates to learn how it is to be straight before she can be a good lesbian.

I imagine this club would loose allot of good Dominants not willing to go through lying to them self and pretending to be subs to gain entrance. The whole myth that Dominants have to have been subs one to be able to be good Doms is in my mind rubbish and we should get the Mythbusters over here to burst it at once.

I wish you well


_____________________________

Whatever you think you can do or believe you can do, begin it. Action has magic, grace and power in it.--Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

Futon torpedoes, make love not war!--Aswad


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Profile   Post #: 33
RE: Weakness or Benefit???? - 7/11/2009 9:16:57 AM   
vasha


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Joined: 2/20/2009
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quote:

As a sub/slave, do you find it to be a weakness or a benefit for a Dom/me to have served as a sub/slave in the past?


a Strength.  definatly. and a big one.  She will truely know  and will be able to get inside the sub/slaves head very much easier.  for some,  the training to become a dom, starts from being a slave.  now, this defaintly isnt for all, and sticks in the proverbal craw of many/most dominants, but it IS highly effective in makeing a "good" dom.  they know what its like being on the other side... even if they dont like it.

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Profile   Post #: 34
RE: Weakness or Benefit???? - 7/11/2009 9:18:06 AM   
IrishMist


Posts: 7480
Joined: 11/17/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

quote:

ORIGINAL: IrishMist

I would have to say a weakness. I could never submit to a man who I knew had willingly submitted to another just for the fun, or sexual gratification of it. Sorry, but, in my eyes, that's not much of a man.


Male children submit to their parents, to teachers and whatever else.  Do you really believe if they have submitted somewhere they are not much of a man?  So they can't be ex military, cause well they submit to higher authority, frankly I think it is a bit pathalogical if someone doesn't submit to anything, social structure, some form of morality, etc.

I can see not wanting a switch but take me, when I was new, I bottomed to someone because of social pressure more than anything else, it didn't do anything for me.  Do you really see me as "not much of a man" because of that?  Don't sugar coat your words, I am really curious about your honest opinion.

How do you feel about a dominant exposing their vulnerable sides, admitting weaknesses and the like, same view? 


use any argument you wish, it will not change how I see things. I don't care how others feel about it. I was asked how I feel. I have given my answer. Live with it.

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RE: Weakness or Benefit???? - 7/11/2009 9:32:18 AM   
beargonewild


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vasha

quote:

As a sub/slave, do you find it to be a weakness or a benefit for a Dom/me to have served as a sub/slave in the past?


a Strength.  definatly. and a big one.  She will truely know  and will be able to get inside the sub/slaves head very much easier.  for some,  the training to become a dom, starts from being a slave.  now, this definitely isn't for all, and sticks in the proverbial craw of many/most dominants, but it IS highly effective in makeing a "good" dom.  they know what its like being on the other side... even if they dont like it.


For some this may be true though I can't see it applying to everyone who identifies as a dominant. How I see it, a dominant person is more than just taking on the role of a submissive even if it's temporary. I know a couple dominants who started out as subs and now identify as a dom, I also know a few doms who have always identified as a dominant person and in both cases, neither has more respect than the other. That respect they garner is because of their strength of character, personal integrity, honesty and a host of other positive traits which makes them who they are: people who I call friends and ones who I will address as "Sir"


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RE: Weakness or Benefit???? - 7/11/2009 10:27:47 AM   
Mercnbeth


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Status: offline
quote:

I ask because my local BDSM community organization has a protocol which requires newbie Dom/mes to spend a brief period of time in service to another
My compliments to the organization for coming up with such a wonderful scheme.

Imagine, an entire organization of "Dom/mes" who, by their membership, have submitted to all the Dominant bottom sensation seekers. I've met a bunch of bottoms who would see this as utopia. You set the hurdles, and after getting people to jump over them, sit back and say "do me!"; boggles the mind!

One of the biggest mistakes people make when attending a play party or club event for the first time is picking the wrong end of the flogger when assuming who is the Dominant in the scene they are watching.

The world I knew is turning upside-down!

Are there really people so desperate for an experience that they would agree to something like that? Were I starting an organization, I'd use that as a test for any potential "Dom/mes" member. If they'd agree to it - they wouldn't be allowed in as a member for reasons of fraud.

(in reply to LdyWintershade)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: Weakness or Benefit???? - 7/11/2009 10:43:07 AM   
Toppingfrmbottom


Posts: 6528
Joined: 6/7/2009
Status: offline 		I see it as neither. I personally do not believe a dom can be a better dom by having served someone first, Nor do I really believe all doms should try out toys on themselves before trying it out on others to understand how the toy feels, because  we all percieve things differently and what may be a fuck no holy  shit no fucking way may be my nirvana.   Honestly I think it's kind of a silly idea that you'll be a better dom if you sub first. Being apreciative of the things you should be apreciative may come from subbing to another or  it may not. but I wouldn't think any one was weaker for having done so.
quote:

ORIGINAL: LdyWintershade

I have been discussing this issue with several Dominant peers and associates, when I realized I really want the opinion of subs/slaves...

As a sub/slave, do you find it to be a weakness or a benefit for a Dom/me to have served as a sub/slave in the past?

I ask because my local BDSM community organization has a protocol which requires newbie Dom/mes to spend a brief period of time in service to another.  The reason for this, was because the group found that many Dom/mes were unappreciative of, and even irresponsible for the power given to them by others.  As a result, some rather dangerous situations popped up and serious abuses of power.  The group felt that serving for a brief period prior to taking on a sub/slave would encourage a respect for the power they would wield over others, and potentially make them better Dominants.

Would you agree with this reasoning, or would you consider a Master/Mistress that has served another as weak?
 - I disagree with what you say, but will defend to the death, your right to say it.


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Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Weakness or Benefit???? - 7/11/2009 11:30:52 AM   
SimplyMichael


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Joined: 1/7/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: IrishMist


quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

use any argument you wish, it will not change how I see things. I don't care how others feel about it. I was asked how I feel. I have given my answer. Live with it.


I was trying to get a more complete view of how you view things, but if you just want to be overly sensitive, be my guest. 

(in reply to IrishMist)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Weakness or Benefit???? - 7/11/2009 11:44:04 AM   
nephandi


Posts: 4470
Joined: 9/23/2005
From: Cold and magickal Norway in a town near Bergen!
Status: offline 		Greetings

quote:

Are there really people so desperate for an experience that they would agree to something like that? Were I starting an organization, I'd use that as a test for any potential "Dom/mes" member. If they'd agree to it - they wouldn't be allowed in as a member for reasons of fraud.


Best reply in this whole tread. Cheers :D

I wish you well


_____________________________

Whatever you think you can do or believe you can do, begin it. Action has magic, grace and power in it.--Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

Futon torpedoes, make love not war!--Aswad


(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 40
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