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RE: Opinions,please, on ethical behavior - 7/22/2009 3:43:54 AM

Posts: 226
Joined: 2/29/2008
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Thanks everyone for the input...just to point out that we both agreed that for now we would remain monogamous until we built the relationship to a firm foundation, then mutually we would bring in play partners. I would have no problem with him chatting online, as long as he was honest with the people he was conversing with and acknowledging the truth about our relationship. Also, if he would've told me he wanted to continue to train other subs, I would've been ok with it because at least he wasn't trying to hide anything. It would've signified trust to me, if that makes any sense.

When I initially told him about dishonesty being the catalyst for my decision to ever leave...I guess I should clarify that he never outright told me he wouldn't be honest (he said, "You need to trust me... you can't question me"), so I took that as a sign he would be truthful. He expressed no remorse about being caught. In retrospect, there was always something in the back of my mind that "bothered"me about him...but I was smitten with him and this being my first submissive experience I think I wanted to ignore all the red flags.

(in reply to GYPZYQUEEN)

RE: Opinions,please, on ethical behavior - 7/22/2009 3:46:19 AM

Posts: 4900
Joined: 2/9/2006
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If you cannot trust him, how can you call him "Master"? Relationships are based on trust, it is the foundation and once it crumbles what do you have left? Dust...I would suggest some inner reflection as to whether you want to be with someone who is dishonest, dishonest with you AND the people he is toying with online.

Sorry but I do not view this guy as a Dom or a Master, I see him as a player who uses the title to get what he wants for nothing.

Good luck,
~Lashra

_____________________________

“We can never judge the lives of others, because each person knows only their own pain and renunciation. It's one thing to feel that you are on the right path, but it's another to think that yours is the only path.”

(in reply to Goddess2002)

RE: Opinions,please, on ethical behavior - 7/22/2009 3:47:54 AM

RCdc

Posts: 8674
Status: offline

I find both of you, unethical.

the.dark.

_____________________________

RC&dc

love isnt gazing into each others eyes - it's looking forward in the same direction

(in reply to Goddess2002)

RE: Opinions,please, on ethical behavior - 7/22/2009 3:48:33 AM

Posts: 226
Joined: 2/29/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: GYPZYQUEEN

quote:

ORIGINAL: Goddess2002

when he has been telling me he wants ME for life for the past six months! ."
He may want you for life and he may want more on the buffet of life..but it should have been discussed......

I had told him before we began training that the only thing that would cause me to request being let go is dishonesty. I have to note that he never agreed to be honest...only that he would protect me and care for me.
YOU made it clear that the ONLY thing that is a deal breaker is dishonesty..and you also note he DID NOT agree...therefore I would imagine it was in the back of your mind.

His point was that he is a Dom, a KING, a Master, and has the right to do as he pleases without me questioning him.
DID he make this point BEFORE you began your relationship or after this incident??

Either way..before means you can make a choice as to if you wish to live that way or after...then you can decide if you want ot GO back on your deal breaker and also PREPARE for more unexpected shit to be dished out.

Does a Master have an absolute right to do as he pleases?
IF he thinks he does then he will.
We cannot say what his rights are.

This is something that comes up over and over in relationships that have NOT been throughly TALKED out...negotiated or many scenerios brought up....... AND
at times with those who think DOM means the sub has NO right to question.
IF that is a criteria for for interaction it MUST be clear in the beginning.

point that yes,he CAN do anything he wants, and as a sub, I have to like it.
NO you don't..you are a human being and there is a BILL OF RIGHTS for them and may I suggest you draw up your own to show the next DOM??

Any input would be appreciated. Thanks.

This is hard..this is a learning...you must ask yourself the following:

*What is my 50% in this happening?

*Will I use this as a growing catalyst or to shit on myself?

*Will I use this to stand in my power or another's?

*What actions will take me forward? what will take me backward?

* How can I use this for my own gain in personal power?

YOU will need time for grief work...this is a loss..
if you want to message on the other side I can help...
maybe take the above questions and journal...??

xxxxx GQ

Coincidentally, Gypzyqueen, I had shown him your jewelry website (beauuutiful!) and he told me when we had our formal collaring ceremony he was going to contact you to "commission" pieces for the ceremony that sadly, now will never take place.

(in reply to GYPZYQUEEN)

RE: Opinions,please, on ethical behavior - 7/22/2009 4:08:03 AM

Posts: 226
Joined: 2/29/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

I find both of you, unethical.

the.dark.

Couldyou elaborate? I appreciate all input and am trying to use this as a learning experience. That means looking at my part in this as well.

(in reply to RCdc)

RE: Opinions,please, on ethical behavior - 7/22/2009 5:11:51 AM

RCdc

Posts: 8674
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Goddess2002

quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

I find both of you, unethical.

the.dark.

Couldyou elaborate? I appreciate all input and am trying to use this as a learning experience. That means looking at my part in this as well.

You read his mail.
Whether it was in plain view or not, unless he instructed you to read them, then I find it unethical to have read through them at all. If Masters mail is open the immediate thought from me is to inform him that his account is still active and he then has the choice to close it or inform me to close it or to just keep it open. Regardless, I would not read through it anyway and just open another window. Your actions are just as unethical as his. Reading personal mail without permission is rude, nosey and impolite and sends up red flags for me as well as his actions.

While the actions of this man are insincere and unethical, your actions are equally so, IMO.

the.dark.

_____________________________

RC&dc

love isnt gazing into each others eyes - it's looking forward in the same direction

(in reply to Goddess2002)

RE: Opinions,please, on ethical behavior - 7/22/2009 5:18:52 AM

Posts: 2078
Joined: 2/16/2004
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There is nothing wrong with him reserving the right to do as he pleases without his actions being questioned by his slave. I do. However, if he does reserve that right he should have said so up front, rather than negotiating with you. If he chooses to negotiate something other than your absolute submission (i.e. by making a bargain about when he would or wouldn't "play" with others), then he needs to honor the bargain, and re-negotiate if he wants to alter it. All he's showing you is that he isn't someone who can be bargained with, because it's not his character to honor his bargains.

As to what he did, specifically, well, for men, finding a decent slave online is just a massive, grinding, numbers game. Of 100 you write to, you'll only engage with a handfull. Most of those will be flakes or fakes. A few more will be grabbed up by someone else along the way. You'll be lucky to ever actually meet 1 or 2, of which maybe 1 will be suitable. If you're lucky. So the fact that he's writing many women doesn't suprise me. The fact that he would continue to since it sounds like you haven't been permanently collared yet doesn't suprise me either. In his mind, he's far along toward having a slave with you, but not there yet, so he keeps the search process going. It would be easy enough for him to tell these other women that he has collared someone if and when he does collar you.

His response to you when you questioned him about it, though, is pretty weak, and certainly smacks of making up a story on the spot to try to appease you. When you submit yourself to a man, you're putting yourself in his hands. A fundamental question you always have to ask before doing that is whether he has sufficient strength of character to make doing so a good idea.

_____________________________

Take care of yourself

Leonidas

(in reply to Goddess2002)

RE: Opinions,please, on ethical behavior - 7/22/2009 5:33:31 AM

Posts: 167
Joined: 5/20/2009
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zaphira will be in the minority here, but she agrees with your owner here.

You should not have read his email, no matter that it was left open or not.
You should not have questioned him. As an owner, he has the right to do as he pleases, he does not need your permission to do so.

of course, the other side of the coin is that you have the right to leave if he is not what you wanted in the first place.

(of course, this is just zaphira's thoughts on the issue discussed )

quote:

Does a Master have an absolute right to do as he pleases?

In zaphira's relationship, yes, he does.

_____________________________

Drakontos
zaphira

Live with honor; serve with grace and beauty

(in reply to Goddess2002)

RE: Opinions,please, on ethical behavior - 7/22/2009 5:38:38 AM

Posts: 538
Joined: 10/24/2004
Status: offline

It sounds like neither of you have actually been honest with each other.
Contrary to what you represented, you have more causes to leave than his dishonesty.
You obviously have a hard limit on an unrestricted poly / "family" / or harem situation.

You ABSOLUTELY 100% have the right to establish hard limits, to assert them, and to question their violation.

Trust is more often misplaced than it is breached. Gain confidence through experience. Two weeks is very little time. Patience is a virtue.

The rights of every person are the same. Maintaining awareness of one's power to choose is THE key element. Surrender is not giving away power, it is sharing the authority to exercise or not exercise the power one always has.

It is your choice, for which you and only you must accept responsibility, whether you authorize your partner to do whatever they please.

He can do whatever he pleases. And, so can you. The question is whether you will choose to be included in his course of action.

Communicate more, assume less, and honor your own power to choose.

(in reply to GYPZYQUEEN)

RE: Opinions,please, on ethical behavior - 7/22/2009 6:12:07 AM

Posts: 226
Joined: 2/29/2008
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I appreciate everyone's honest feedback...which was the basis of my ethical dilemma to begin with. Yes..it was wrong for me to read his messages...hands down. Yes, it was wrong for him to lie. So what does one do in a situation like that? We were both wrong. Another element to this is that recently when he gives me permission to speak freely to express a concern, etc, I am punished if I say something he doesn't like. So in a way I felt trapped because I had no venue to communicate with him. Keep in mind I was at the time a sub, not a slave. Although my heart misses him terribly, my head tells me it's time to move on.

(in reply to aldompdx)

RE: Opinions,please, on ethical behavior - 7/22/2009 10:15:58 AM

crouchingtigress

Posts: 4387
Joined: 3/19/2006
From: Maui
Status: offline

Yay I am glad you made that decision, I felt deeply that a liar could easily give you more then a broken heart, and this guy is not worth a lifelong disease.

_____________________________

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This is him

"Its none of my buisness what other people think of me."

(in reply to Goddess2002)

RE: Opinions,please, on ethical behavior - 7/22/2009 10:23:08 AM

Posts: 8098
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: DeEtte

I had something similar happen with my last Dom, he wanted exclusivity, then I find he is online chatting up other subs.

Doesn't matter what the intent on either side was, the trust was gone. End of relationship.

Mr. Geekfreak couldn't be more right!

Join that club, when mr. busy was too busy to chat despite his "view" that we would have made a good start and kept making empty promises but had still time chatting with other subs/slaves, which yahoo.msn did show ...dito, trust was gone and the end was there. I don't wait for a bloke in a shelf like a doll just because he can't make up his mind and "might come back later as his last reserve."

I don't see a reason why he should do that with other girls without intension and if it would be just to "fool around" would I want a bloke who gets off with such games??? Nope.

_____________________________

RIP 08-09-07

The PAST is history, the FUTURE a mystery, NOW is a gift - that's why it's called the PRESENT

www.butyoudontlooksick.com/navigation/BYDLS-TheSpoonTheory.pdf

(in reply to DeEtte)

RE: Opinions,please, on ethical behavior - 7/22/2009 10:30:46 AM

Posts: 9008
Joined: 6/19/2005
From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
Status: offline

For me the answer is simple. If you are a sub, then you can renegotiate if you want or just walk away. If however you are a slave, then the Master can do no wrong (within reason) and a slave has no right to question his actions unless they place her in danger. A slave however can and should ask permission to speak freely and to discuss the matter with her Master. The slave also has the right to either walk away or to beg for release. It does sound without having his side of the story that you are better off without him. I see, with what little evidence presented here, that you are both incompatible. Just my views on this matter, no more, no less.

_____________________________

Iron Bear

Master of Bruin Cottage

http://www.bruincottage.org

Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F.

(in reply to Goddess2002)

RE: Opinions,please, on ethical behavior - 7/22/2009 10:41:04 AM

Posts: 2201
Joined: 4/28/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

quote:

ORIGINAL: Goddess2002

quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

I find both of you, unethical.

the.dark.

Couldyou elaborate? I appreciate all input and am trying to use this as a learning experience. That means looking at my part in this as well.

You read his mail.
Whether it was in plain view or not, unless he instructed you to read them, then I find it unethical to have read through them at all. If Masters mail is open the immediate thought from me is to inform him that his account is still active and he then has the choice to close it or inform me to close it or to just keep it open. Regardless, I would not read through it anyway and just open another window. Your actions are just as unethical as his. Reading personal mail without permission is rude, nosey and impolite and sends up red flags for me as well as his actions.

While the actions of this man are insincere and unethical, your actions are equally so, IMO.

the.dark.

Perfectly said, the.dark. My thoughts exactly.

_____________________________

Member: Lance's Fag Hags.

"That's not just a chip on her shoulder, that's the whole potato!" ~Lady Angelika~

In lowering yourself to talking behind my back, you're perfectly positioned to kiss my ass.

An it harm none, do what ye wilt.

(in reply to RCdc)

RE: Opinions,please, on ethical behavior - 7/22/2009 11:24:08 AM

Posts: 7229
Joined: 1/7/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark
If Masters mail is open the immediate thought from me is to inform him that his account is still active and he then has the choice to close it or inform me to close it or to just keep it open. the.dark.

That is a wonderful way of being, one I can greatly respect. It does however allow someone the chance to say "he doesn't trust me to view his email, now I get to decide if that is an issue or not"

quote:

Your actions are just as unethical as his. Reading personal mail without permission is rude, nosey and impolite and sends up red flags for me as well as his actions.

I agree that it is rude, nosey, and impolite. HOWEVER, NONE of those things ranks up their with lying to other women about not having a partner, a HORRIBLE breach of integrity.

Frankly, I can't imagine having someone I considered a serious partner who I wouldn't share my passwords with. I either trust them with my life or I don't.

(in reply to RCdc)

RE: Opinions,please, on ethical behavior - 7/22/2009 11:29:45 AM

LillyoftheVally

Posts: 1826
Joined: 7/22/2009
Status: offline

Hmm having had a bloke who hacked all my accounts then made mountains out of molehills, I cant abide by people who feel the need to snoop.

_____________________________

'My doctor says that I have a malformed public-duty gland and a natural deficiency in moral fibre, and that I am therefore excused from saving Universes.'

Nah I am not happy to see you either

(in reply to SimplyMichael)

RE: Opinions,please, on ethical behavior - 7/22/2009 2:08:07 PM

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Joined: 4/18/2005
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I'd rather be thought of as unethical than to let someone shit on me and fuck up my life again. I'm with you, Goddess, better to know now than later, and save a future, "I was such a good little slave and trusted him but he was doing this bad stuff the whole time...." thread. Which is a much more realistic scenario. Much less romantic, but much more realistic.

_____________________________

You know it's going to be a GOOD blow job when she puts a Breathe Right strip on first.

Pick-up artists and garbage men should trade names.

(in reply to LillyoftheVally)

RE: Opinions,please, on ethical behavior - 7/22/2009 2:13:51 PM

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Joined: 5/14/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: antipode

quote:

Does a Master have an absolute right to do as he pleases? Part of me believes that he left the messages open on purpose to prove the point that yes,he CAN do anything he wants, and as a sub, I have to like it.

Ah. A dom who is sub to a dom. Unless I am missing something, you reap what you sow.

Yeah... People who either switch, don't update their profiles, or misclick on stuff on the internet deserve this kind of treatment. Don't be a jerk.

_____________________________

The Loving Owner of HisHeavan

... You've waited your whole life for this moment...

(in reply to antipode)

RE: Opinions,please, on ethical behavior - 7/22/2009 2:23:16 PM

Posts: 1254
Joined: 5/14/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Goddess2002

Thanks everyone for the input...just to point out that we both agreed that for now we would remain monogamous until we built the relationship to a firm foundation, then mutually we would bring in play partners. I would have no problem with him chatting online, as long as he was honest with the people he was conversing with and acknowledging the truth about our relationship. Also, if he would've told me he wanted to continue to train other subs, I would've been ok with it because at least he wasn't trying to hide anything. It would've signified trust to me, if that makes any sense.

When I initially told him about dishonesty being the catalyst for my decision to ever leave...I guess I should clarify that he never outright told me he wouldn't be honest (he said, "You need to trust me... you can't question me"), so I took that as a sign he would be truthful. He expressed no remorse about being caught. In retrospect, there was always something in the back of my mind that "bothered"me about him...but I was smitten with him and this being my first submissive experience I think I wanted to ignore all the red flags.

Regarding the ethics of submission, I maintain all bottoms (including all s-types) ALWAYS retain the right to leave a relationship. Even the TPE, 100%, my body belongs to you type. It's consensual slavery. With this in mind, if the dominant wishes to keep the submissive, they must act in a manner which will not trigger the slave's desire to leave.

Whether written or unwritten, spoken or unspoken, there is a certain contract you make when dealing with others. The contract is basically "If can't meet my needs (needs, not wants) I'm out of here."

Your need was honesty/openness. You had even discussed it formally. He did not fulfill his side of the contract: To be "good enough" for you not to leave him.

Meanwhile, did he do anything wrong? I'm not so certain. What if one of those girls said "Sure, sir, come over for a quickie." Would he have? We can never know. I can understand the urge to flirt for sport... As I do it sometimes... But keeping it secret is rather questionable. It is hard to tell someone you're with "Sweetheart, I want to set up dates with other women and not go to them." Namely because men are trained to believe women will go all sit-com on us for that... In the real world, who knows - Maybe you'd be into it...

In short, Goddess, I don't think you've done anything wrong. I think your decision to leave was/is fully justified. I know that doesn't lessen the pain, but it might remove some guilt. If you admit to yourself "my consent is essential to my being with someone" then you must also acknowledge that your consent can be withdrawn, for whatever reasons you see fit.

Again, I feel for you... Maybe he deserves a second chance - I'm not too convinced. I would only trust him now if he offered 100% transparency. But remember, you can only expect/desire/require 100% transparency if you're willing to not judge someone for the truth.

_____________________________

The Loving Owner of HisHeavan

... You've waited your whole life for this moment...

(in reply to Goddess2002)

RE: Opinions,please, on ethical behavior - 7/22/2009 2:33:19 PM

Posts: 1254
Joined: 5/14/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: sweetsub1957

quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

quote:

ORIGINAL: Goddess2002

quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

I find both of you, unethical.

the.dark.

Couldyou elaborate? I appreciate all input and am trying to use this as a learning experience. That means looking at my part in this as well.

You read his mail.
Whether it was in plain view or not, unless he instructed you to read them, then I find it unethical to have read through them at all. If Masters mail is open the immediate thought from me is to inform him that his account is still active and he then has the choice to close it or inform me to close it or to just keep it open. Regardless, I would not read through it anyway and just open another window. Your actions are just as unethical as his. Reading personal mail without permission is rude, nosey and impolite and sends up red flags for me as well as his actions.

While the actions of this man are insincere and unethical, your actions are equally so, IMO.

the.dark.

Perfectly said, the.dark. My thoughts exactly.

I disagree. An open email browser has zero expectation of privacy. It's like leaving a pink perfumed letter from his mistress on his desk. It invites speculation, most notably so if -without clicking- one is able to see the names of other women. No human adult can stop themselves from automatically reading words, why are they to blame for reading words put in front of them?

In honest, the.dark (and Sweetsub) if you glanced at the screen and saw "fuck my brains out" would you be able to completely ignore such a sentence. What about other phrases?

"Hyatt Hotel, 7:30 p.m."
"Bring condoms."
"put you on your back."
"suck your cock."
"kiss you all over."
"lick you."
"my mouth..."
"rub your..."

These phrases, and infinite others, warrant suspicion. I don't know what Goddess saw... or how far she clicked... or if she noticed he was logged in so she purposefully snooped... That information could change how I feel. This is my stance assuming the information was, truly, in plain view.

_____________________________

The Loving Owner of HisHeavan

... You've waited your whole life for this moment...

(in reply to sweetsub1957)

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