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RE: Define God - 8/17/2009 12:45:54 AM   
GotSteel


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Thanks for the response and sorry that Esinn sometimes has trouble interacting at the non asshat level.



quote:

ORIGINAL: VanIsleKnight
Little difficult to explain why.  I suppose you could say that it was what I was taught, but as I got older and more aware of the world around me, I of course started to question things for validity.  Essentially it came down to personal experiences, beliefs, and choices that I continue to believe in God and Christianity.



I’d encourage you to continue questioning things for validity and to find a good secular scientific  resource to get your information from. In order to find out a little more about various scientific theories and the evidence for them.  That way you won’t be subject to some of the misinformation that’s floating around the various Christian communities.  

quote:

ORIGINAL: VanIsleKnight
The idea that everything happened because of nothing spontaneously and randomly becoming doesn't make sense to me.  The idea that an omnipotent being created everything does make sense to me. 


quote:

ORIGINAL: VanIsleKnight
I don't know who created the Creator, but I feel extremely confident that we and everything we know exists because God made it and not because of random causality. 



There are more than just those two options, the way you’ve presented this is a false dichotomy. You don’t have to pick either spontaneous random poof or Yahweh. There are other ideas and other gods that explain the universe. Furthermore, it could be that none of those explanations are right, past a certain point we don’t have any evidence so we don’t know what happened. I know that “we don‘t know” doesn’t feel as comforting as Jesus, but whether or not something is factually true really doesn’t have anything to do with how emotionally appealing it feels. But maybe I’m reading too much into your “I feel extremely confident” and the use of feel was just an unfortunate word choice and you hold a different position.


quote:

ORIGINAL: VanIsleKnight
So, answer is, I don't know. 


That’s a valid answer.

quote:

ORIGINAL: VanIsleKnight
Life and matter is exceedingly complex, it doesn't "just happen".


I doubt you’ll find any physicist or biologist who would state that *poof* matter and life just happened. Scientists have put forth very detailed theories for both of those events. Whereas intelligent design more closely resembles the idea of  it just happened (at the whim of some omnipotent being who just exists). Have you heard about abiotic genesis? Even if you dismiss it how do you get from deism to Christianity?



quote:

ORIGINAL: VanIsleKnight
I don't believe however that humans evolved from apes,



You shouldn’t believe that because we didn’t.

Humans did not evolve from monkeys. Humans are more closely related to modern apes than to monkeys, but we didn't evolve from apes, either. Humans share a common ancestor with modern African apes, like gorillas and chimpanzees. Scientists believe this common ancestor existed
5 to 8 million years ago. Shortly thereafter, the species diverged into two separate lineages. One of these lineages ultimately evolved into gorillas and chimps, and the other evolved into early human ancestors called hominids.








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RE: Define God - 8/17/2009 12:45:06 PM   
Ialdabaoth


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

Humans did not evolve from monkeys. Humans are more closely related to modern apes than to monkeys, but we didn't evolve from apes, either. Humans share a common ancestor with modern African apes, like gorillas and chimpanzees. Scientists believe this common ancestor existed
5 to 8 million years ago. Shortly thereafter, the species diverged into two separate lineages. One of these lineages ultimately evolved into gorillas and chimps, and the other evolved into early human ancestors called hominids.




Er, that's not precisely true. We did not evolve from any modern species of ape, but our most recent common ancestor was assuredly an ape - as are we.

We didn't evolve from apes; we are apes. And actually, the lineage that gorillas evolved from split off before the lineage that chimpanzees evolved from; humans and chimpanzees came from the branch that didn't produce gorillas.

But, seriously - humans are a type of ape. Just like humans are a type of mammal. Just like humans are a type of animal. Just like humans are a type of material object. All of these statements are physiologically, biologically and genetically irrefutable.


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RE: Define God - 8/17/2009 1:48:33 PM   
kittinSol


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ialdabaoth

But, seriously - humans are a type of ape. Just like humans are a type of mammal. Just like humans are a type of animal. Just like humans are a type of material object. All of these statements are physiologically, biologically and genetically irrefutable.



Yes, and all of these facts are irrefutably independent from the idea of God - only the ignorant wish to link biology to religion. Deliberate idiocy is a religion to some people.

< Message edited by kittinSol -- 8/17/2009 1:55:01 PM >


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RE: Define God - 8/17/2009 2:43:32 PM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ialdabaoth

Er, that's not precisely true. We did not evolve from any modern species of ape, but our most recent common ancestor was assuredly an ape - as are we.

We didn't evolve from apes; we are apes. And actually, the lineage that gorillas evolved from split off before the lineage that chimpanzees evolved from; humans and chimpanzees came from the branch that didn't produce gorillas.

But, seriously - humans are a type of ape. Just like humans are a type of mammal. Just like humans are a type of animal. Just like humans are a type of material object. All of these statements are physiologically, biologically and genetically irrefutable.




Your correct, though according to the definition of ape your using I don't think putting the word modern in would be enough of a disclaimer. Thing is I don't think the poster I was talking to is using the same definition of ape as you. Telling a Christian who has doubts about evolution that yes they came from apes because the definition of ape has been changed to include humans is about as useful as a Christian telling a scientist that we can be sure that the bible is true because the bible says it's true. I was making a semantic argument, messed up and posted without finishing or putting a disclaimer on it. It was 3:45am, all I can say is my bad.

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RE: Define God - 8/26/2009 10:16:28 PM   
Esinn


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This thread was started on 8/2/2009

I discussed the rules of logic then quoted them.

If god exists it can be defined.

If god is a rational concept it can be defined without contradiction the laws of logic.

If god is a meaningless concept it can not be defined without violating the laws of logic.

X = X not P


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RE: Define God - 8/26/2009 10:27:19 PM   
Esinn


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quote:

coacervates
quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

quote:

coacervate

A coacervate is a collection of biochemical molecules that self-assemble into a spherical structure, oftentimes with osmotic properties. Say membrane sacks without content. Reminiscent of micelles, I suppose. I learned about these structures decades ago, but never knew they were named coacervates.


3 billion years before these molecules assembled what was god within?

You still have not explained how it is possible for god to be in heaven, be Jesus(who is in heaven I assume - after he rose from the dead he flew off on a cloud) and be the holy spirit?

I am still very confused to what, "god within means"

Let's disregard that for now and address
quote:

You still have not explained how it is possible for god to be in heaven, be Jesus(who is in heaven I assume - after he rose from the dead he flew off on a cloud) and be the holy spirit?


If god is anything more than a lingustic place holder like grey matter than it is material.  If it is not material what is it and how do you know?

How does a material remain in every particle at every second?  Explain how the mechanism which allows this material known as god to be omniscient works.

I am not asking trick questions.


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RE: Define God - 8/26/2009 10:43:44 PM   
rightwinghippie


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"This thread was started on 8/2/2009

I discussed the rules of logic then quoted them.

If god exists it can be defined.

If god is a rational concept it can be defined without contradiction the laws of logic.

If god is a meaningless concept it can not be defined without violating the laws of logic.

X = X not P "

Yet 22 days later its still nonsense. And nothing but a personal opinion taking the false form of logic. Everything but the first line is incorrect. You should take an actuall course in logic. Its quite interesting.

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Profile   Post #: 667
RE: Define God - 8/26/2009 11:11:40 PM   
Esinn


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rightwinghippie

"This thread was started on 8/2/2009

I discussed the rules of logic then quoted them.

If god exists it can be defined.

If god is a rational concept it can be defined without contradiction the laws of logic.

If god is a meaningless concept it can not be defined without violating the laws of logic.

X = X not P "

Yet 22 days later its still nonsense. And nothing but a personal opinion taking the false form of logic. Everything but the first line is incorrect. You should take an actuall course in logic. Its quite interesting.


So, you are saying things which exist are undefinable?  Like what?  Can you give a few examples so we can discuss them.  Are you suggestion if something violates the 3 laws of logic it is not a meaningless contradiction?  Explain


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RE: Define God - 8/26/2009 11:13:06 PM   
Esinn


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Joined: 6/23/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: rightwinghippie

"This thread was started on 8/2/2009

I discussed the rules of logic then quoted them.

If god exists it can be defined.

If god is a rational concept it can be defined without contradiction the laws of logic.

If god is a meaningless concept it can not be defined without violating the laws of logic.

X = X not P "

Yet 22 days later its still nonsense. And nothing but a personal opinion taking the false form of logic. Everything but the first line is incorrect. You should take an actuall course in logic. Its quite interesting.


You very clearly said in another thread about 15 minutes ago your definition of god has not been discussed.  I can cut and paste the thread over here to job your memory.


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RE: Define God - 8/26/2009 11:16:45 PM   
Esinn


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Joined: 6/23/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ialdabaoth

But, seriously - humans are a type of ape. Just like humans are a type of mammal. Just like humans are a type of animal. Just like humans are a type of material object. All of these statements are physiologically, biologically and genetically irrefutable.



Yes, and all of these facts are irrefutably independent from the idea of God - only the ignorant wish to link biology to religion. Deliberate idiocy is a religion to some people.


You know how YIM has a smiley face that claps excitedly?

Hmmm
[claps][claps][claps][claps]

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RE: Define God - 8/26/2009 11:19:31 PM   
Ialdabaoth


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Joined: 5/4/2008
From: Tempe, AZ
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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel
Your correct, though according to the definition of ape your using I don't think putting the word modern in would be enough of a disclaimer. Thing is I don't think the poster I was talking to is using the same definition of ape as you. Telling a Christian who has doubts about evolution that yes they came from apes because the definition of ape has been changed to include humans is about as useful as a Christian telling a scientist that we can be sure that the bible is true because the bible says it's true. I was making a semantic argument, messed up and posted without finishing or putting a disclaimer on it. It was 3:45am, all I can say is my bad.



Erm, well, it's not that the definition of ape was changed to include humans, it's that the definition of ape always very clearly included humans, but for social reasons a lot of people refused to acknowledge that fact for a long time.

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RE: Define God - 8/26/2009 11:27:11 PM   
Brain


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Great website, I love PBS. I didn't know they had that section on evolution, thank you.

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RE: Define God - 8/27/2009 1:17:21 AM   
knees2you


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I guess Supertramp said it best.
 
"Said a boat without an anchor, and a ship without a sea. Said the devil is my Saviour and I don't pay no heed."
 
Always, Ant

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Profile   Post #: 673
RE: Define God - 8/27/2009 4:48:31 AM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ialdabaoth
Erm, well, it's not that the definition of ape was changed to include humans, it's that the definition of ape always very clearly included humans, but for social reasons a lot of people refused to acknowledge that fact for a long time.


Dictionaries to this day don't necessarily agree with you on that: http://www.thefreedictionary.com/ape

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Profile   Post #: 674
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