Gift? Or Something Else?

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TheLadyIsADomme -> Gift? Or Something Else? (8/4/2009 5:40:17 PM)
So the current thread on gifts got me to thinking about the "gift of submission" that some people talk about. I have encountered some who think that their submission is a gift they give to the dominant, or that that dominant accepts. Others see it as a natural progression and others may see it entirely differently. I did a search and didn't really see any recent thread that talked about this, but if I missed one, feel free to direct me to that instead. For me, I sort of see it as a giving of themselves, something that is special and unique and something not given lightly or easily. Perhaps that explains my preference for confident, alpha types. If someone easily submits to to the world, then their submission to me is not particularly meaningful. How do others see it? I also want to say on a side note, how much I appreciate this forum to express my thoughts and read about others'. I spend a lot of time thinking about these types of things and haven't really had any other women to bounce things off of, so it is so refreshing to read/hear others' perspectives. Thanks!

MoGa -> RE: Gift? Or Something Else? (8/4/2009 5:49:43 PM)
I see a gift as something that is given with no expectations of anything in return. So if submission is a gift, is there nothing expected in return? I have never chosen a submissive who didn't want anything in return from me, nor would I. To me, both of us must have our needs met, we both must get something out of the relationship, or it just will not work for us. This is one of those questions where there will be many different answers. YMMV MoGa

MsStarlett -> RE: Gift? Or Something Else? (8/4/2009 5:56:48 PM)
I most value the gift of friendship. The rest tends to flow naturally from that point.

LadyPact -> RE: Gift? Or Something Else? (8/4/2009 6:36:45 PM)
I tend to see everyone who brings positive things to My life as gifts. They enrich My life in all kinds of ways. Love, friendship, etc, so of course I'm going to see My submissive that way. I tend to think it's gifts between each other, not a one way thing.

ignoreme -> RE: Gift? Or Something Else? (8/4/2009 6:37:40 PM)
Exactly, if submission is a gift then dominance is one too...

LadyAngel1 -> RE: Gift? Or Something Else? (8/4/2009 9:09:12 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ignoreme Exactly, if submission is a gift then dominance is one too... Yes, yes, yes! I have enlightened many males on this issue. Many submissives equate the tangible gifts (presents) or the acts of service they do as giving a lot to a relationship (and it very often is), yet they often forget about the gift that Dominants give in return. To me, just being responsible for another human being's physical and mental well-being is a huge responsibility to take on... and a gift of a very special kind.

SylvereApLeanan -> RE: Gift? Or Something Else? (8/4/2009 9:15:36 PM)
If it's a gift, can I exchange it for a color I like better? Or maybe just return it and get the money back. Can it be regifted? And does it come with a money back guarantee if it breaks or just doesn't work? No? Then it's not a gift.

LadyAngel1 -> RE: Gift? Or Something Else? (8/4/2009 9:26:52 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SylvereApLeanan If it's a gift, can I exchange it for a color I like better? Or maybe just return it and get the money back. Can it be regifted? And does it come with a money back guarantee if it breaks or just doesn't work? No? Then it's not a gift. A gift can be defined (by dictionary) as something voluntarily transferred from one person to another without compensation. Giving of one's time, talent, service, or unconditional love can certainly be a gift, in my opinion. No money back guarantee necessary.

darchChylde -> RE: Gift? Or Something Else? (8/4/2009 10:02:35 PM)
Somewhere around January of last year I posted the following response to this particular subject, I haven't looked for the thread it was originally in as I had transferred it as a blog on another social networking (never thought I'd ever actually use that word, lol) site. ______________________________ My submission to someone is not a gift, or a right; it's closer to a prize, though that isn't exactly it either. Ma'am has earned my submission, not by dominating me or any type of sex or scene; but by simply being who She is and making me feel safe and secure and loved. She didn't take control or demand it, i freely offered it with a trust that She'll do what is best for me, to guide and train me to be better not as a submissive, but as a man. i know that many of the things that She does or has me do will be unpleasant, but i love Her and trust Her that in the end it will make me stronger and make us work better as a family, will bring us closer. ______________________________

MistressRouge -> RE: Gift? Or Something Else? (8/5/2009 10:15:12 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: darchChylde Somewhere around January of last year I posted the following response to this particular subject, I haven't looked for the thread it was originally in as I had transferred it as a blog on another social networking (never thought I'd ever actually use that word, lol) site. ______________________________ My submission to someone is not a gift, or a right; it's closer to a prize, though that isn't exactly it either. Ma'am has earned my submission, not by dominating me or any type of sex or scene; but by simply being who She is and making me feel safe and secure and loved. She didn't take control or demand it, i freely offered it with a trust that She'll do what is best for me, to guide and train me to be better not as a submissive, but as a man. i know that many of the things that She does or has me do will be unpleasant, but i love Her and trust Her that in the end it will make me stronger and make us work better as a family, will bring us closer. ______________________________ Now that is beautiful, and I say here here. I dont see Dominance, or submission as a gift.

kccuckoldmist -> RE: Gift? Or Something Else? (8/5/2009 10:57:16 AM)
I think answer range based on context. In my personal opinion world there are three line of thoughts. 1) The old if it is something I cherish and unconditional then it is a gift. 2) How many in this life use the phrase to suck up to submissives or submissives try to control a new relationship or keep a wall up from them and their dominant. That often is some justification why they are not willing to do what they stated they are looking for despite expressing feelings and enough time has passed that it would be time to do. 3) For the OP, there are people who will ACT submissive to anyone at the drop of a hat out of lust, horniness or delusion of fantasy. Then there is a time when a submissive truly gives their submission over to their one because they want and need to. That to me is my personal thought when the gift of submission happens. They submit to all of me and not just what my defined title in power exchange is about.

sweetsub1957 -> RE: Gift? Or Something Else? (8/5/2009 11:47:57 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyPact I tend to see everyone who brings positive things to My life as gifts. They enrich My life in all kinds of ways. Love, friendship, etc, so of course I'm going to see My submissive that way. I tend to think it's gifts between each other, not a one way thing. quote: ORIGINAL: ignoreme Exactly, if submission is a gift then dominance is one too... I don't so much see my submission as a gift as I see His Dominance as a gift to me. I am so grateful and thankful to Sir that He chose me, out of all the submissives out there, to be His. He could have picked anybody, but He picked me. I love Him with all my heart and soul and will do anything for Him. I feel truly blessed.

PeonForHer -> RE: Gift? Or Something Else? (8/5/2009 12:05:06 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ignoreme Exactly, if submission is a gift then dominance is one too... My position too. Funny thing, really - on the face of it, there isn't really a bigger gift that you can give than love (of whatever sort, D/s included). But the moment you start to think of the love you're giving as a gift - it's not love any longer. I wish that didn't read like something out of Reader's Digest - but, well, there we are.

SylvereApLeanan -> RE: Gift? Or Something Else? (8/5/2009 8:37:09 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyAngel1 quote: ORIGINAL: SylvereApLeanan If it's a gift, can I exchange it for a color I like better? Or maybe just return it and get the money back. Can it be regifted? And does it come with a money back guarantee if it breaks or just doesn't work? No? Then it's not a gift. A gift can be defined (by dictionary) as something voluntarily transferred from one person to another without compensation. Giving of one's time, talent, service, or unconditional love can certainly be a gift, in my opinion. No money back guarantee necessary. Irony FAIL. Let's see if I can put this in clearer terms for you. I wrote this a few months ago as a journal entry. It seems appropriate for the thread. Submission is not a gift. From my observation, there are two dominant (pardon the pun) schools of thought regarding the significance of submission. The first is comprised of those who believe submission is a gift and should be treasured for the mere fact of its existence. The second is made up of those who feel submission is owed to the dominant by the mere fact of his/her dominance. As one of the rarest of rare birds when it comes to how I view the world, I fall into neither camp. I can say with conviction that I do not believe I am owed anything by anyone. Certainly not by a submissive person with whom I've not so much as exchanged email. When I walk into a room, I don't expect the subs to fall to their knees and make obeisance to me as I sweep past. That's just silly. However, I also don't accept that submission is a gift. I've noticed a lot of submissive women wield the romantic, if misguided, notion of their submission as a holy grail, which they will only bestow upon the most worthy of dominants after said dominant has slain the dragon of the submissive's emotional baggage. Let's be realistic, shall we? A gift is something given without expectation of receiving anything in return. This does not describe submission in the context of a BDSM relationship. In truth, the submissive has very high expectations. She expects to be treated as well (or as poorly) as needed to fulfill her fantasies. She expects to be bound, beaten, and buggered. Or she expects to be grabbed by the hair and forced to her knees where she will scrub floors naked, her ankles chained, until it's time to serve her master his pre-dinner cocktail. Or she expects to be cuddled, coddled, and treated like Daddy's baby girl. At the end of the day, she expects to be cared for, to be valued (if simultaneously degraded and humilated), and to have her physical and emotional needs met by the dominant she has chosen. I believe it is safe to say she does not submit without a single, fleeting thought for her own needs and desires. She expects something in return for her service. Therefore, her submission is not a gift. If you expect to get something of value from your submission -- to have your fantasies fulfilled, to achieve sexual gratification, to establish an emotional connection of any sort with a dominant -- neither is yours. Don't delude yourself into thinking otherwise. I view the Mistress/slave dynamic as a partnership. We both give and we both receive something of value. Submission is not a gift -- it is one half of a symbiotic relationship.

tazzygirl -> RE: Gift? Or Something Else? (8/5/2009 8:42:53 PM)
dont know about others, but, every relationship takes hard work. i dont consider something two people have to work at as being a gift. a gift is easily given, and sometimes easily forgotten. something you work hard at tends to have a better chance of sticking around.

XYisInferior -> RE: Gift? Or Something Else? (8/5/2009 9:59:50 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TheLadyIsADomme So the current thread on gifts got me to thinking about the "gift of submission" that some people talk about. I have encountered some who think that their submission is a gift they give to the dominant, or that that dominant accepts. Others see it as a natural progression and others may see it entirely differently. How do others see it? Gift: A thing given willingly to someone without payment. In that context, perhaps submission could be a gift, but it often seems that those who speak of the "gift of their submission" likewise see it as a gift that serves the giver. Better to just not talk about "gifting" one's loyalty and service in the first place; it smacks of a certain immodesty.

TheLadyIsADomme -> RE: Gift? Or Something Else? (8/5/2009 10:13:21 PM)
I really like the way you said this, Sylvere. I think I think along the same lines. The gift notion does get romanticized within the context of the BDSM relationship. Thanks!

CallaFirestormBW -> RE: Gift? Or Something Else? (8/6/2009 9:12:59 AM)
I would have to say "something else"... specifically, a dynamic (definition: A characteristic or manner of an interaction; a behavior). I am one of the more rare folks (I think, at least from following the "BDSM community" [whether or not there -is- a community is a whole nother debate] for several decades) in that I don't necessarily believe that either dominance or submission is completely tied to the personality NOR completely unchangeable once the dynamic has been set. Different times, different situations, and different people may evoke a completely different response on the dominance-submission scale from a given individual. Admittedly, there are some folks who lean more heavily towards one end or the other as a general rule of their own nature, and some who move freely between the polar points on the scale, and that has to be considered as well. It is also possible (and I know this because I've lived it) to orient much more strongly towards -one- end of the spectrum, but to acquiesce to expressing the -other- end of the spectrum out of either preference or necessity. For me, this was four years as a comprehensive-authority-dynamic servant, which was a requirement to earning my crop in the household which I am part of. The House's dominant members participate "from the bottom up", and that's just the way it is, and I sucked it up for 4 difficult years because I -had- to, in order to achieve what I was determined to achieve (and yes, I acknowlege that those years were -fully- as difficult for the Keepers at the time as they were for me! LOL). With that in mind, I'd have to say that whatever an individual's prevalent orientation of dominance and submission is, it is more an internal process than anything we can 'give away' to anyone. Truthfully, what a submissive individual offers isn't hir 'submission'. What xhe offers is hir -obedience- and hir fealty, through the -behavior- of submission... and with the expected return of any subject, which is that, in return for hir obedience and fealty, xhe will be commanded, and/or protected -- and that hir essential needs will be attended to by the one(s) whose authority xhe has accepted. Notice, too, that in order for obedience to take place, the submissive individual must -accept- something... the authority of the dominant individual -- so there is no way that this can be a one-sided transfer of anything -- it is a dynamic, and that is really all that can be said about it, all romanticism aside. Dame Calla

HarryVanWinkle -> RE: Gift? Or Something Else? (8/9/2009 8:11:47 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TheLadyIsADomme So the current thread on gifts got me to thinking about the "gift of submission" that some people talk about. I have encountered some who think that their submission is a gift they give to the dominant, or that that dominant accepts. Others see it as a natural progression and others may see it entirely differently. I did a search and didn't really see any recent thread that talked about this, but if I missed one, feel free to direct me to that instead. For me, I sort of see it as a giving of themselves, something that is special and unique and something not given lightly or easily. Perhaps that explains my preference for confident, alpha types. If someone easily submits to to the world, then their submission to me is not particularly meaningful. How do others see it? I also want to say on a side note, how much I appreciate this forum to express my thoughts and read about others'. I spend a lot of time thinking about these types of things and haven't really had any other women to bounce things off of, so it is so refreshing to read/hear others' perspectives. Thanks! Ma'am's slave never did buy into the "giving the gift of submission" line. he didn't give Ma'am any gift. She took his submission as if She owned it by right of birth. In claiming Her slave's submission, Ma'am gave him a gift, giving him his natural place in life after so many years.

MaamJay -> RE: Gift? Or Something Else? (8/9/2009 8:24:24 PM)
Let's not forget that an alternative meaning for "gift" is a talent. In which case, both submission and Dominance might be gifts. Maam Jay aka violet[A]

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