RE: Medicare as a shining example

Join Our Community

Collarchat.com

Home Login Search

RE: Medicare as a shining example

View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest

All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Dungeon of Political and Religious Discussion >> RE: Medicare as a shining example

Page: << < prev 1 2 [3] 4 5 next > >>

Login

Message

<< Older Topic Newer Topic >>

RE: Medicare as a shining example - 8/18/2009 8:23:25 PM

Posts: 22039
Joined: 6/14/2006
From: Nampa, Idaho USA
Status: offline

I never said companies didn't operate for profit, where did you get that? Of course companies operate for a profit. Profit is what makes the real world go around! Profit is what makes people get up off of their asses and work, it's why companies compete for your dollar, for your business.

Profit is good, profit is your friend...

Without someone somewhere working and sweating and thinking about a profit even the (precious precious shiny precious) bureaucracies would cease operations - because SOMEBODY'S got to pay the bills!

< Message edited by Sanity -- 8/18/2009 8:26:19 PM >

_____________________________

Inside Every Liberal Is A Totalitarian Screaming To Get Out

(in reply to Louve00)

RE: Medicare as a shining example - 8/19/2009 12:17:44 AM

ThatDamnedPanda

Posts: 6060
Joined: 1/26/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: gift4mistress

quote:

ORIGINAL: elegantcdgoddess

i dont think that is medicare issue. The problem is in healthcare. Why dont we have physicians with regular home visits in US?

I know it might sound harsh, but there is nothing wrong with medicare decision. Elderly, ill patients should see physician and be evaluated, rather then medicated blindly. That is actually great concept. The problem is in healthcare system who cannot organize themself to serve the patient.

That is absolutely the dumbest thing I have ever herd. Our health care is the best in the world though our system isn't.

And that's one of the silliest things I've ever heard. It makes absolutely no sense at all. It's like telling a German to stop whining about not having a car, because after all Germany has the best cars in the world.

_____________________________

Panda, panda, burning bright
In the forest of the night
What immortal hand or eye
Made you all black and white and roly-poly like that?

(in reply to gift4mistress)

RE: Medicare as a shining example - 8/19/2009 2:08:56 AM

Posts: 1879
Joined: 4/2/2008
Status: offline

You know what I think is the funniest and also the most sad. Is listening to some of these elderly folks, and some young folks saying at town hall meetings "I don't want the government involved in my medicare, leave my health insurance alone" and the stunned look on their faces and the silence of the crowd when it is explained to them that medicare is government run health care.

Huh...turns out these end of life conversations are better for the people who are terminal

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090818/ap_on_he_me/us_med_end_of_life

< Message edited by housesub4you -- 8/19/2009 2:52:25 AM >

(in reply to ThatDamnedPanda)

RE: Medicare as a shining example - 8/19/2009 3:37:04 AM

Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline

Well Orion, as you know me better than your comments would indicate, there's not much point in adding anything. I understand that you are angry and frustrated at the situation, especially as it involves a chronic problem involving a loved one.

Where we differ in particular is that I've long ago tired of simply ranting. I prefer looking for the reason for the problem. I don't see that as accepting mediocrity. Rather, I don't see the point of continuing to insist everyone is corrupt and inept when that "solution" isn't achieving anything. When something isn't working, I change what I'm doing--but not by randomly trashing it.

Problems are usually buried in systems, and blaming people misses those problems. I'll give you an example. I was commissioned a few years back to survey faculty about completely revamping a college writing curriculum (to make it relevant for modern demands). The study was purposely open-ended, as it was stressed to me repeatedly that they really wanted a clear and complete picture (which we did--highest compliance rate ever in the university). Among the interesting points uncovered--and the one relevant to this discussion--is that almost all (high 90s) faculty insisted that faculty development/training was a critical need. And almost all (again, high 90s) stated the reason was that other faculty had to be brought up to speed. Every individual believes s/he is doing a great job, and the data for disappointing department results is the fault of other faculty. Obviously, that's impossible--but it's a firmly entrenched belief, and a cultural change like the one needed would take commitment, funds, an atmosphere of trust and a good five year consistent effort to bring it around. They don't want to do it. Why? Administration also thinks it's a faculty problem, and that everything administration does is gold.

There's an interesting discussion of system thinking in Peter Senge's The Fifth Discipline, incidentally. Because each individual sees only one part, that individual makes logical decisions. Problems are seen, yes, but since the individual made logical decisions (based on the part observable), the problems are clearly the fault of the other people in the system. Now, we could throw out all the people in the system and get new ones. However, that SAME problems would manifest, because the problem is in the system, not the people. Imagine trying to adjust the hot/cold water in the shower with a 20 second delay. You'd go nuts! Here, the metaphorical "delays" are longer and larger. That's what needs trimming.

It can be done, and in a government agency. Years ago, the NYS DMV was the most inept, frustrating, depressing, time wasting, obnoxiously unhelpful agency you can imagine. Damn bureaucrats just didn't give a fuck. A new director, a few years times, and the place is clean, quick, efficient, and almost friendly--office after office. I don't know what he did, as I haven't studied it--but I'm confident he didn't send around memos stating "Be friendly and efficient or you're fired."

It takes a work culture change, not a crack of the whip. Somethings are like that. I can yell at my orchard...it doesn't care. I have to address it on the nature of an orchard. People and systems aren't different. They are what they are according to their nature, and getting good results means working with that nature.

It will take time, money and patience. You say we haven't had a politician try that approach, so who knows. Well, they haven't tried it because people pretty clearly indicate they won't tolerate it. After all, they DO consistently favor whomever promises them tax cuts, even when those cuts are ill-advised and counterproductive. I'd vote for those who did try. And I try to talk to other people and gradually change minds.

Or we can continue to yell at the situation. How's that working out?

Two cents.

Tim

< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 8/19/2009 3:40:50 AM >

(in reply to OrionTheWolf)

RE: Medicare as a shining example - 8/19/2009 3:50:22 AM

Posts: 22039
Joined: 6/14/2006
From: Nampa, Idaho USA
Status: offline

That was one of the DNC talking points that went out, yes. Democrats have been instructed to try to make elderly people who voice concerns about Obamacare look stupid, and even Obama himself can't resist getting in on the act:

http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/2009/07/obama-pokes-fun-at-dont-touch-my-medicare-people.php

But seniors' worries that Obamacarewill raid Medicare are legitimate concerns because because they're rooted in Obama's own stated ideology.

"Does grandma really need that new hip, if she's just gonna die anyway?"

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601070&sid=aGrKbfWkzTqc

What's sad is how this administration tries so hard to demonize or mischaracterize anyone who tries to ask serious questions.

Medicare is going broke, that's a fact - shouldn't we figure out how to fix that problem before we add everyone in the country to it?

http://blog.thehill.com/2009/07/07/raiding-medicare-for-another-insolvent-government-run-health-care-plan-sen-mitch-mcconnell/

So, yeah - here's a shining example of what you might find at the very top level of government bureaucracy: "Hah hah hah, aren't those stupid, confused old people cute? Let's ignore them, and move on."

quote:

ORIGINAL: housesub4you

You know what I think is the funniest and also the most sad. Is listening to some of these elderly folks, and some young folks saying at town hall meetings "I don't want the government involved in my medicare, leave my health insurance alone" and the stunned look on their faces and the silence of the crowd when it is explained to them that medicare is government run health care.

Huh...turns out these end of life conversations are better for the people who are terminal

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090818/ap_on_he_me/us_med_end_of_life

< Message edited by Sanity -- 8/19/2009 4:39:21 AM >

_____________________________

Inside Every Liberal Is A Totalitarian Screaming To Get Out

(in reply to housesub4you)

RE: Medicare as a shining example - 8/19/2009 5:40:45 AM

Posts: 7803
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline

Yeah I think simple ranting is pointless.

So what do you believe the reason for these problems are? The specific problem I spoke of is the ridiculous rule that when new equipment is issued that there must be a Doctors visit to get a new Certificate of Medical Necessity. This should be an easy one, as Medicare should have a small panel of Doctors review certain conditions/diseases and say "These are the exception since they are incurable or degenerative." I wonder how much will be saved right there from unnecessary Doctors visits?

The second suggestion I made in my letter was that equipment for long term care was purchased outright and the manufacturer held to their warranties. In combination with this, seperate service agreements could be established with the Medical Supply companies that are making huge profits renting equipment. These should be reviewed and the service contracts would be a fraction of what is being paid as rentals.

Those two right there would save huge amounts of money, and not reduce the quality of medical care.

Last night I watched a program on MSNBC about the healthcare crisis and Medicare. Someone mentioned that Medicare spends more per patient on healthcare than any insurance company, and this keeps the quality up. Now examine that statement. Medicare spends more per patient because that system is set up with no incentives to reduce expenses. Now look into how well Medicare is doing with it's budget.

A Dem Congrassman said last night "I will not vote for any measure that does not have some kind of cost control built into, period. Medicare is close to bankrupt, we do not want another program that while doing good for the people, drains this country of money it does not have. We have to look at cost control first." He was shouted down by several other Dems for taking the side of the Reps. To me it seemed like a good idea.

If we want a solution, or to make things better, then write your Senator and Representative and tell them you want a review and audit of Medicare and it's guidelines to find areas that are causing unnecessary expenses. Then it is not just simple ranting.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Where we differ in particular is that I've long ago tired of simply ranting. I prefer looking for the reason for the problem. I don't see that as accepting mediocrity. Rather, I don't see the point of continuing to insist everyone is corrupt and inept when that "solution" isn't achieving anything. When something isn't working, I change what I'm doing--but not by randomly trashing it.

_____________________________

When speaking of slaves people always tend to ignore this definition "One who is abjectly subservient to a specified person or influence."

(in reply to Musicmystery)

RE: Medicare as a shining example - 8/19/2009 8:16:35 AM

Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity
Who was the last Senator who you fired, anyway? I'm curious to know.

Norm Coleman

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30

(in reply to Sanity)

RE: Medicare as a shining example - 8/19/2009 9:31:52 AM

Posts: 1674
Joined: 2/1/2009
Status: offline

I saw that on MSNBC too, as well I learned some interesting facts on CNN, on that Campbell Brown show (cant remember the name of her show, but I like it lol).

If you are engaging in proactive measurements, here are three bills from Ron Paul on Health and Gov't Reform that you may find worth your while.

http://www.lef.org/featured-articles/Health-Government-Reform-Bills-by-Ron-Paul.htm

_____________________________

For the great majority of mankind are satisfied with appearance, as though they were realities and are often more influenced by the things that seem than by those that are. - Niccolo Machiavelli

(in reply to OrionTheWolf)

RE: Medicare as a shining example - 8/19/2009 9:58:13 AM

Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline

You think HR 3395, the erroneously titled Health Freedom Act, is a good idea? This would allow anyone to make any claim they want in regards to whether a substance treats a condition and the FDA would only be allowed to act if it had clear and convincing evidence that the claim is false and that the producers know it to be false. IOW A 'supplement' maker could put out anything labeled as anything for the treatment of anything and as long as they studiously avoid writing down that they know they that they're commiting fraud they couldn't be prosecuted or stopped, no matter how many die or sicken as a result.

Think about that, the manufacturer would be safe from prosecution even in a case where he knowinglu distributed arsenic by saying that he was not convinced that the studies on the health effects of arsenic were reliable.

(in reply to Louve00)

RE: Medicare as a shining example - 8/19/2009 10:11:25 AM

Posts: 1674
Joined: 2/1/2009
Status: offline

I would assume they would still have to file an ANDA with the FDA.

_____________________________

For the great majority of mankind are satisfied with appearance, as though they were realities and are often more influenced by the things that seem than by those that are. - Niccolo Machiavelli

(in reply to DomKen)

RE: Medicare as a shining example - 8/19/2009 10:59:40 AM

Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline

ANDA's have never been required of 'supplements.'

(in reply to Louve00)

RE: Medicare as a shining example - 8/19/2009 11:14:06 AM

Posts: 1674
Joined: 2/1/2009
Status: offline

What this bill is proposing is to stop hiding pertinent information on people who could and should make determinations for themselves. As it is today, the pharmaceuticals have a corner on this market, censoring information people should know, information that is out there but being kept from the public for the personal gain of the pharmaceutical company. In other words....the pharma's would just as soon make it illegal to say taking an aspirin is beneficial to your heart, because people might use that information to their good, and it could result in the pharma's not making as much money as they could if that information was kept from the public. Its about freedom of speech.

Your claims that someone would want to market arsenic or some other substance that could lead to serious danger (not to mention, serious financial loss to them), is a scare tactic as diabolical as the ones being passed around now.

_____________________________

For the great majority of mankind are satisfied with appearance, as though they were realities and are often more influenced by the things that seem than by those that are. - Niccolo Machiavelli

(in reply to DomKen)

RE: Medicare as a shining example - 8/19/2009 11:18:21 AM

Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline

The bill has nothing to do with pharmaceutical companies. Its all about 'supplement' makers and their desire to make unsupported claims. Your own link says so.

(in reply to Louve00)

RE: Medicare as a shining example - 8/19/2009 11:20:15 AM

Posts: 1674
Joined: 2/1/2009
Status: offline

_____________________________

For the great majority of mankind are satisfied with appearance, as though they were realities and are often more influenced by the things that seem than by those that are. - Niccolo Machiavelli

(in reply to DomKen)

RE: Medicare as a shining example - 8/19/2009 11:31:23 AM

Posts: 1674
Joined: 2/1/2009
Status: offline

This bill removes FDA’s power of prior restraint over all nutrient-disease relationship claims. Under the bill, the FDA may not prohibit any statement concerning a nutrient affecting a disease (including treatment effects) from being made in the market and may only act against a statement once made if it possesses clear and convincing evidence that the statement is false. Presently the FDA blocks an enormous quantity of truthful information concerning the effects of nutrients and foods on disease from reaching consumers. That barrier is removed by the Health Freedom Act, but the Act preserves the power of the government to prosecute those who communicate falsehood. The essential purpose of the First Amendment is to disarm the federal government of the power to impose a prior restraint on speech. The FDA has imposed a prior restraint for decades to the health detriment of the public. Passage of the Health Freedom Act will restore constitutional governance by reasserting the supremacy of the First Amendment over the Food and Drug Administration.

That is what was in the link I posted. No talk of manufacturing supplements. What did you read? Last time you and I got into a discussion about health, you were telling me supplements were useless and nutrients in food were the better choice. According to that claim, you have nothing to worry about.....except, of course, what might be being kept from you to eat a good, healthy, solid diet.

_____________________________

For the great majority of mankind are satisfied with appearance, as though they were realities and are often more influenced by the things that seem than by those that are. - Niccolo Machiavelli

(in reply to Louve00)

RE: Medicare as a shining example - 8/19/2009 11:31:26 AM

Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline

From your own link:

quote:

This bill removes FDA’s power of prior restraint over all nutrient-disease relationship claims. Under the bill, the FDA may not prohibit any statement concerning a nutrient affecting a disease (including treatment effects) from being made in the market and may only act against a statement once made if it possesses clear and convincing evidence that the statement is false.

http://www.lef.org/featured-articles/Health-Government-Reform-Bills-by-Ron-Paul.htm

This is a pro supplement bill being pushed on a pro supplement website.

(in reply to Louve00)

RE: Medicare as a shining example - 8/19/2009 11:34:41 AM

Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Louve00
That is what was in the link I posted. No talk of manufacturing supplements. What did you read? Last time you and I got into a discussion about health, you were telling me supplements were useless and nutrients in food were the better choice. According to that claim, you have nothing to worry about.....except, of course, what might be being kept from you to eat a good, healthy, solid diet.

The law is all about supplements. What other nutrients are manufactured and advertised as having health benefits that are monitored by the FDA?

Bringing up the previous discussion when you didn't know what oxidation was and thought supplements cured cancer seems an unusually bad idea.

(in reply to Louve00)

RE: Medicare as a shining example - 8/19/2009 1:14:03 PM

Posts: 1674
Joined: 2/1/2009
Status: offline

Ummm...I'm sure not going to spend my day arguing with you over what I am confident about, whether you want to believe it, or believe something else. I never ever claimed supplements cured cancer. You're putting words in my mouth. That you want to tell me what is and isnt a good idea is good for you, but you sure won't convince me!

_____________________________

For the great majority of mankind are satisfied with appearance, as though they were realities and are often more influenced by the things that seem than by those that are. - Niccolo Machiavelli

(in reply to DomKen)

RE: Medicare as a shining example - 8/19/2009 2:16:13 PM

Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

No - companies can and do downsize, split, merge, fail, and so on.

1) Certain companies have been deemed to be too big to fail - and consequently they have been given a fair old hand out at the expense of the tax payer who by the way did not get a vote on the matter.

2) Certain industries (let's call them narrow economic interests) hold court in the sphere of political power which goes a long way to explain why you end up in wars that many people do not want.

Yeah in principle and in the land of fairies and elves the invisible hand of the free market ensures all interests are served. In practice modern history tells us that certain industries have effectively formed an unelected government with the express purpose of serving their advancement.

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to Sanity)

RE: Medicare as a shining example - 8/19/2009 2:22:45 PM

Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline

See, NG? If I cudda spoken english, I'd'a fuckin' said that.

Ron

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30

(in reply to NorthernGent)

Page: << < prev 1 2 [3] 4 5 next > >>

All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Dungeon of Political and Religious Discussion >> RE: Medicare as a shining example

Page: << < prev 1 2 [3] 4 5 next > >>

Jump to:

New Messages	No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages	Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages	Locked w/o New Messages

Post New Thread

Reply to Message

Post New Poll

Submit Vote

Delete My Own Post

Delete My Own Thread

Rate Posts

Collarchat.com © 2024

Terms of Service

0.102