Could we kindly cut the nazi/communist crap?

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Could we kindly cut the nazi/communist crap? - 8/29/2009 12:09:05 PM

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This has gotten past the point of amusement. It is becoming a distraction to any rational discussion or debate that can take place. This is as true in these threads as it is in the town hall meetings.

Can we please take a moment for a quick cup of nice, cool reality?

Liberals are not communists. They do not want to destroy the democratic government process. They do not want to make this a welfare state. They do not want to turn this country into a new version of Stalinist Russia.

Conservatives are not fascists. They do not want to destroy the democratic government process. They do not want to make this a government only for rich, white Christians. They do not want to see anyone who is not a rich white Christian hunted down and destroyed.

We have serious differences in viewpoint. We have major differences in what we consider the appropriate actions are to solve the problems that face the country. But can we stop with the boogie man, communist, nazi nonsense long enough to maybe discuss the issues?

RE: Could we kindly cut the nazi/communist crap? - 8/29/2009 12:11:32 PM

rightwinghippie

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works for me

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RE: Could we kindly cut the nazi/communist crap? - 8/29/2009 12:17:34 PM

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Seems to me that op demonstrates the typical Nazi communist fence sitting that is all too common place nowadays.

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RE: Could we kindly cut the nazi/communist crap? - 8/29/2009 1:11:10 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SpinnerofTales

This has gotten past the point of amusement. It is becoming a distraction to any rational discussion or debate that can take place. This is as true in these threads as it is in the town hall meetings.

Can we please take a moment for a quick cup of nice, cool reality?

Liberals are not communists. They do not want to destroy the democratic government process. They do not want to make this a welfare state. They do not want to turn this country into a new version of Stalinist Russia.

Conservatives are not fascists. They do not want to destroy the democratic government process. They do not want to make this a government only for rich, white Christians. They do not want to see anyone who is not a rich white Christian hunted down and destroyed.

We have serious differences in viewpoint. We have major differences in what we consider the appropriate actions are to solve the problems that face the country. But can we stop with the boogie man, communist, nazi nonsense long enough to maybe discuss the issues?

Well said, Spinner, and I mostly agree.

However, I think that part of the problem is years, and years of political BS that has often come from the left a la "the right is Hitler". Even recently, this has been a meme given life by Democratic leaders such as the Speaker of the House, and others.

Every time there is a Republican President, the left has constantly tried to tar any policy of theirs as related to the Nazis, and Hitler. Bush is just the latest, and most vehement example (Bushitler ring any bells?).

Now that we have a lefty President, and growing opposition to his policies (well, the policies that he allows to be put in place by a Dem controlled congress, anyway), then all of a sudden the use of "Nazi" and "Hitler" are no longer worthy of inclusion into the mainstream political discussion?

While I applaud your post, and your concept, and agree that it would lead to a better debate and discussion, and I have no doubt that you personally are an honorable man who really desires to have such a "clean" discussion .... it kinda seems like, when people on the left sudden don't want those comparisons made are when they hit closest to home, and when it's their goose being cooked (so to speak).

Firm

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RE: Could we kindly cut the nazi/communist crap? - 8/29/2009 1:15:47 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY
Well said, Spinner, and I mostly agree.

Translation: "Yes, of course we can."

quote:

However, I think that part of the problem is years, and years of political BS that has often come from the left a la "the right is Hitler". Even recently, this has been a meme given life by Democratic leaders such as the Speaker of the House, and others.

Translation: "Actually, no we can't."

quote:

Every time there is a Republican President, the left has constantly tried to tar any policy of theirs as related to the Nazis, and Hitler. Bush is just the latest, and most vehement example (Bushitler ring any bells?).

Now that we have a lefty President, and growing opposition to his policies (well, the policies that he allows to be put in place by a Dem controlled congress, anyway), then all of a sudden the use of "Nazi" and "Hitler" are no longer worthy of inclusion into the mainstream political discussion?

Translation: "You started it!"

quote:

While I applaud your post, and your concept, and agree that it would lead to a better debate and discussion, and I have no doubt that you personally are an honorable man who really desires to have such a "clean" discussion .... it kinda seems like, when people on the left sudden don't want those comparisons made are when they hit closest to home, and when it's their goose being cooked (so to speak).

Translation: "Besides, you're only upset because you're communists!"

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RE: Could we kindly cut the nazi/communist crap? - 8/29/2009 1:59:33 PM

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Mind readers.

You just can't avoid them, it seems.

Firm

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RE: Could we kindly cut the nazi/communist crap? - 8/29/2009 2:18:10 PM

rightwinghippie

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Firm, for many (not all) lefties, that is the basis of all debate. Changing what is said to something else they can argue against. It has to be "translated". They are fully aware that they can't debate what you said. But you already know this.

Not all lefties, but a lot.

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RE: Could we kindly cut the nazi/communist crap? - 8/29/2009 2:20:36 PM

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quote:

Seems to me that op demonstrates the typical Nazi communist fence sitting that is all too common place nowadays. ORIGINAL: FullCircle

As a true American who believes in the constitution as written by our founding fathers, I am going to have to try to legislate away your right to mak such comments, Full.

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RE: Could we kindly cut the nazi/communist crap? - 8/29/2009 2:24:08 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: rightwinghippie

Firm, for many (not all) lefties, that is the basis of all debate. Changing what is said to something else they can argue against. It has to be "translated". They are fully aware that they can't debate what you said. But you already know this.

Not all lefties, but a lot.

I'm simply tired of people on all sides using weasel words and 'read-between-the-lines' arguments to make their points.

At some point, people have become too cowardly to make their points in a straightforward manner. I suppose it's inevitable, considering that any point that you try to make in a straightforward way gets shouted down or twisted around in the most bizzare spectacle of emotional appeals... but, hey. If I can't play dirty with the big boys, I suppose it's time to go home.

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RE: Could we kindly cut the nazi/communist crap? - 8/29/2009 2:28:09 PM

LillyoftheVally

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See OP even in this thread you can't get away from the mud slinging. I actually love it, some of the most surreal things come out of peoples mouths/fingers when talking about politics. Mind it is the easiest thing to simply say 'ahh well you are left/right wing so what do you know' rather than actually having a discussion.

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RE: Could we kindly cut the nazi/communist crap? - 8/29/2009 2:31:49 PM

rightwinghippie

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Play dirty if thats your kink. It isn't reasoned or logical debate. Or go whine, or go home, who cares....You of all people complaining about emotional appeals. Thats just funny/

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RE: Could we kindly cut the nazi/communist crap? - 8/29/2009 2:33:38 PM

ThatDamnedPanda

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quote:

ORIGINAL: rightwinghippie

Firm, for many (not all) lefties, that is the basis of all debate. Changing what is said to something else they can argue against. It has to be "translated". They are fully aware that they can't debate what you said.

It's incredibly ironic that you would say that to Firm, of all people.

But be that as it may, I see the same thing from the other side. How many times have you seen threads here derailed by some conservative attacking Obama for shit that they just made up out of nowhere, or someone else made up out of nowhere and said it on the radio so now the poster assumes it must be true? The health care threads are a good example of that.

Actually, I'll even take it a step further - what i'm used to seeing from conservative posters - not all, but a discouragingly significant number - is that they not only can't debate what we're saying to them, they can't even comprehend it. No offense, because you're an obvious exception to that, but one thing the internet has done is expose me to so many conservatives who are so completely ignorant, uninformed, and just plain stupid, it's caused me to seriously consider whether conservatism represents (at least in some cases) an actual cognitive disorder.

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RE: Could we kindly cut the nazi/communist crap? - 8/29/2009 2:34:41 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ialdabaoth

quote:

ORIGINAL: rightwinghippie

Firm, for many (not all) lefties, that is the basis of all debate. Changing what is said to something else they can argue against. It has to be "translated". They are fully aware that they can't debate what you said. But you already know this.

Not all lefties, but a lot.

I'm simply tired of people on all sides using weasel words and 'read-between-the-lines' arguments to make their points.

At some point, people have become too cowardly to make their points in a straightforward manner. I suppose it's inevitable, considering that any point that you try to make in a straightforward way gets shouted down or twisted around in the most bizzare spectacle of emotional appeals... but, hey. If I can't play dirty with the big boys, I suppose it's time to go home.

You intentionally twisted my words, for your own political or personal objectives.

Is that straightforward enough for you?

Firm

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RE: Could we kindly cut the nazi/communist crap? - 8/29/2009 2:35:55 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

Mind readers.

I'm willing to hear an alternate explanation of what you meant, if you'd like. I'm also willing to explain why I read what you said the way I did.

quote:

However, I think that part of the problem is years, and years of political BS that has often come from the left a la "the right is Hitler". Even recently, this has been a meme given life by Democratic leaders such as the Speaker of the House, and others.

See, the problem I had with this statement is, you're in a thread that is asking both sides to cool off, and you start off with an attack on the other side, without acknowledging anything you might have done to contribute - while doing something (the attack) to contribute. To me, this is a clear signal that you aren't willing to play ball.

quote:

Every time there is a Republican President, the left has constantly tried to tar any policy of theirs as related to the Nazis, and Hitler. Bush is just the latest, and most vehement example (Bushitler ring any bells?). Now that we have a lefty President, and growing opposition to his policies (well, the policies that he allows to be put in place by a Dem controlled congress, anyway), then all of a sudden the use of "Nazi" and "Hitler" are no longer worthy of inclusion into the mainstream political discussion?

I don't know how else to read this, other than "the left have been using this tactic for years against Republican presidents. Now that it's our turn, they're complaining."

quote:

when people on the left sudden don't want those comparisons made are when they hit closest to home, and when it's their goose being cooked (so to speak)

Given that the accusation being discussed (from the Right to the Left, anyway) was that the left is communist, I don't know how to read the "hit closest to home" statement other than to assume that you mean that there's truth to it, therefore bringing back up the same argument that you're superficially agreeing shouldn't be made.

Where did I go wrong, here?

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RE: Could we kindly cut the nazi/communist crap? - 8/29/2009 2:43:53 PM

rightwinghippie

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Panda, its a bipartisan problem, I will admit. But your conjecture that,

"No offense, because you're an obvious exception to that, but one thing the internet has done is expose me to so many conservatives who are so completely ignorant, uninformed, and just plain stupid, it's caused me to seriously consider whether conservatism represents (at least in some cases) an actual cognitive disorder."

We can't start naming names here, but several on your side cause me to feel the exact same way about leftists.

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RE: Could we kindly cut the nazi/communist crap? - 8/29/2009 2:47:53 PM

LillyoftheVally

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edit

< Message edited by LillyoftheVally -- 8/29/2009 2:49:07 PM >

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RE: Could we kindly cut the nazi/communist crap? - 8/29/2009 3:02:37 PM

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Godwin's Law, Spinner. Hitler for authoritarians of the right (even if facism has nothing to do with conservative thought), Stalin for authoritarians of the left (even if communism has nothing to do with liberal values).

Too bad, so sad, sleep in the bed you made.

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RE: Could we kindly cut the nazi/communist crap? - 8/29/2009 3:07:02 PM

ThatDamnedPanda

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quote:

ORIGINAL: rightwinghippie

Panda, its a bipartisan problem, I will admit. But your conjecture that,

"No offense, because you're an obvious exception to that, but one thing the internet has done is expose me to so many conservatives who are so completely ignorant, uninformed, and just plain stupid, it's caused me to seriously consider whether conservatism represents (at least in some cases) an actual cognitive disorder."

We can't start naming names here, but several on your side cause me to feel the exact same way about leftists.

I see a relatively high density among liberals, too, and I'm the first to admit it. But in my experience (and my opinion), it typically expresses itself differently. I see a number of liberals make some very illogical arguments, but typically not from a position of ignorance - they may think illogically, but more often than not, their position is at least rooted in the facts.

Whereas among conservatives, far more often I find that they're arguing from a position that's just total bullshit. From "Saddam was involved in 9/11" right up to "the government will appoint death panels to determine who gets treatment and who dies." Time and again, it's just pure ignorance. I don't see that anywhere near as often from liberals - they usually at least know what the facts are; they just spin them in ways that make me shake my head in sadness.

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RE: Could we kindly cut the nazi/communist crap? - 8/29/2009 3:15:12 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda

quote:

ORIGINAL: rightwinghippie

Firm, for many (not all) lefties, that is the basis of all debate. Changing what is said to something else they can argue against. It has to be "translated". They are fully aware that they can't debate what you said.

It's incredibly ironic that you would say that to Firm, of all people.

And, pray-tell, why is that?

Firm

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RE: Could we kindly cut the nazi/communist crap? - 8/29/2009 3:29:14 PM

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quote:

Panda

I see a relatively high density among liberals, too, and I'm the first to admit it. But in my experience (and my opinion), it typically expresses itself differently. I see a number of liberals make some very illogical arguments, but typically not from a position of ignorance - they may think illogically, but more often than not, their position is at least rooted in the facts.

Whereas among conservatives, far more often I find that they're arguing from a position that's just total bullshit. From "Saddam was involved in 9/11" right up to "the government will appoint death panels to determine who gets treatment and who dies." Time and again, it's just pure ignorance. I don't see that anywhere near as often from liberals - they usually at least know what the facts are; they just spin them in ways that make me shake my head in sadness.

I think this is because it is easier to manipulate the crowds with lies - the right is particularly adept at doing this. It's the populist stance.

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