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RE: Is Atheism a religion? - 9/6/2009 1:17:48 PM

Arpig

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quote:

Right. Without the invisible stuff, the math doesn't work. Are you saying the magic dust doesn't represent a leap of faith that we have the math right?

Yes I am. Dark matter is not a fact, and no scientists or layman who knows what it is (or supposed to be to be more accurate) presents it as such. What it is is a possible explanation of a fact. The fact that needs explaining is that there is something with a gravitational effect, something we can not see. Dark matter is one possible explanation of this, it happens to be the preferred explanation at the moment, but that does not preclude its being debunked by further research. There is no leap of faith, simply because those espousing the theory (please note that it is a theory) are not stating that it exists, what they are saying is that it would explain the observed facts. In the absence of another theory that explains the facts, scientists have accepted the theory of dark matter and are further testing the theory to see if it is in fact true. They do this by starting with the supposition that it does exist, and then from there figuring out what effects it would have in other areas than the observed gravitational anomaly...then they go and see if such other effects do exist. This in fact has been found to be the case, for example with the background microwave radiation in the universe. I don't pretend to understand exactly what these effects are, but after all that is why we have astrophysicists...they do understand this stuff, but there is evidence for the existence of dark matter, measurable, verifiable scientific evidence (not something written down in the bronze age by a semi-literate desert tribe).
That is the difference between a scientific theory, no matter how outlandish it seems, and faith. The theory invites testing, there are a whole bunch of dedicated scientists trying to poke holes in the dark matter theory, that is how science works: You posit a theory, and others test that theory, by deducing the logical consequences of that theory and then testing to see if those consequences do appear. So far, with the dark matter theory, the deduced consequences do appear, so the theory stands for the time being, until somebody proves it to be false, or until dark matter can be directly observed.

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RE: Is Atheism a religion? - 9/6/2009 3:40:42 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Your standard is an arbitrary and false assumption.... I don't believe in fairies. Therefore, I see the world that way, and should be known as an Afairist. Come on. That's silly of course

You don't believe in faeries, fine. The question is, are you prepared to state categorically and beyond all allowance for doubt that there is absolutely no such thing or even any possibility of such a thing as faeries? Because as you may have noticed, that is the typical stance of those who proclaim themselves Atheists, to wit...

quote:

ORIGINAL: DavanKael

there are no inherent hoops to jump through: just standing firm in "there is no god" will do it.

And that is perfectly correct, because the dictionary definition is not limited to one who simply does not happen to believe in a surpreme being; it includes, and in some references means specifically, those who actively, firmly, and absolutely deny that there is such.

In my view, the latter is an assertion that is just as unprovable, and ultimately, therefore, just as much an assertion of faith, as its opposite.

K.

Apparently, then, it depends on what kind of atheist...or perhaps on what the meaning of is is.

Hell, there's no point swimming upstream against the tide (yes that mixes fresh and salt water metaphors, but the rules say I can believe anything I want). As long as precedent states I can claim nonbelief as belief, I may as well found the Church of Atheism and apply for tax-free status. I could then preach politics from the pulpit and circumvent campaign reform. See my web site for the link to contribute. A-amen, and may the non-God non-bless you!

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RE: Is Atheism a religion? - 9/6/2009 4:05:55 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig
No. It is not a religion by your definition. There is no requirement of faith in an atheist view. One simply accepts what one can confirm, one accepts reality as perceivable without the addition of any non-observable details that require faith.

I have to disagree with there being an atheist view. A-theist just means not-theist, so anyone who lacks a belief in the existence of a god or gods counts. They could lack that belief for the reason you described. It could be that they hold a belief that there are no gods for whatever reason (maybe they think that poop isn't beautiful). Maybe they think that god is dead, they might hold some other mutually exclusive belief such as aliens did it. They could lack a belief in gods for some reason I've never even heard of, it's not a useful label for telling you what someone is, it just tells you one of the things they are not.

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RE: Is Atheism a religion? - 9/6/2009 4:38:30 PM

CallaFirestormBW

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I would be in a pickle of a fix if atheism were a religion in anything but a legal sense, because I have faith in a number of things, but I don't really even debate the issue of "is there a God", because, to me, it is a completely pointless discussion.

I don't "jump through hoops" to not believe. In general, I don't even discuss it. I certainly don't hang jewelry around my neck saying "Atheist", cover my walls with pictures of atheist 'saints' and 'prophets', or spend entire days listening to someone tell me why I should live my life a certain way to be a 'good atheist', then just do as I please as soon as I step out the door of that special chamber and out of sight of all of the other people with me in that chamber who might "judge" my worth as an atheist.

My ethical foundation does not depend on some 'great being' disciplining me to -make- me behave or 'do the right thing', and yet, I manage to strive to be just, ethical, honest, and dedicated, just because one of the things I -do- believe in is that I am responsible for my own decisions about how I treat other people.

... so explain to me again about the whole hoop-jumping thing...

If some of us do seem angry, perhaps it comes from having people shove their 'beliefs' down our throats "for our own good", and attempting to invalidate our experience... that tends to incite hostility and a bit of defensiveness, in my experience.

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RE: Is Atheism a religion? - 9/6/2009 5:11:44 PM

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This is a good place to remind people that faith and belief are not synonyms. One is a noun and the other is a verb but they are often used interchangeably.

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RE: Is Atheism a religion? - 9/6/2009 6:11:41 PM

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There is one major problem with Atheism as a religion: no holidays.

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RE: Is Atheism a religion? - 9/6/2009 6:26:52 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic
When you start looking at the hoops they jump through to maintain the position, it even becomes a pretty wacky religion. It also seems to attract a lot of angry people.

Thoughts?

I don't have faith in faith, how is that a religion and what hoops does it involve?

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RE: Is Atheism a religion? - 9/6/2009 6:38:58 PM

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I don't consider atheism a religion but rather, a group that displays on the average the same tendency to rigid thought as the religious.

I used to say I was atheist though never really was, I guess, I'm agnostic, in that I don't know for sure, and don't care really.

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RE: Is Atheism a religion? - 9/6/2009 6:41:04 PM

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quote:

I don't consider atheism a religion but rather, a group that displays on the average the same tendency to rigid thought as the religious.

All atheists are now a group? Damn. What else do we have in common?

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RE: Is Atheism a religion? - 9/6/2009 6:42:24 PM

Arpig

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quote:

A-theist just means not-theist, so anyone who lacks a belief in the existence of a god or gods counts.

And that IS the atheist view...that there is no God.

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RE: Is Atheism a religion? - 9/6/2009 6:44:45 PM

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And a view is not a religion.

When a form asks "religion," I'm still putting "none."

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RE: Is Atheism a religion? - 9/6/2009 6:45:05 PM

ThatDamnedPanda

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic
When you start looking at the hoops they jump through to maintain the position, it even becomes a pretty wacky religion. It also seems to attract a lot of angry people.

..........

There are hoops, Muse. Those who walk in childlike faith might never come to leaping through them, but every time I hear/see a suggestion that we need science instead of faith, I think of dark matter theory, where science insists that 80% of the universe is completely invisible and undetectable, but we have to believe in this magic dust, or the math won't work. That's a hoop, Muse.

Considering how many people there are who believe both in the existence of god and in the existence of dark matter, that example is a completely worthless argument to demonstrate how illogical someone has to be to be an atheist. In fact - with all due respect - it does a pretty good of showing the convoluted hoops you have to jump through to make such an illogical argument. If that's really the best (or one of the best) example you can think of to demonstrate that atheists are illogical, I'd respectfully suggest you may want to spend some time reconsidering your position.

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RE: Is Atheism a religion? - 9/6/2009 7:04:50 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

I don't consider atheism a religion but rather, a group that displays on the average the same tendency to rigid thought as the religious.

All atheists are now a group?
Of course you are in a group, as in a group of people that don't believe in god.

Damn.

What else do we have in common?
I have no idea, however, the only people that will argue over unproveable things with you in relation to religion ad nauseum, in my experience, are atheists, and the hard core religious. How about I add in my opinion. Does that make it better. Just look on youtube who is talking about religion the most its Atheists, and the hard core religious. Look on here who gets there panties in a bunch the most about religion its certainly not the agnostics.

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RE: Is Atheism a religion? - 9/6/2009 7:22:14 PM

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What an obnoxious observation.

People keep bringing up the damn thing. I don't care who worships treebark. I do care who tells me what I supposedly think and believe and lump me into a bunch of other people I don't know.

And THAT'S the point of the atheist label--to conveniently lump together the "group" for mischaracterization.

Yes, there are annoying anti-god idiots. There are annoying right-wing religious extremists. Neither represent a belief system, unless being an asshole is now a religion too.

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RE: Is Atheism a religion? - 9/6/2009 7:30:12 PM

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Far from 'the only,' Panda. I just find dark matter, and "evidence" of it amusing to play with. It's much like the parallel universe/multiverse theories. I see the evidence of some sort of God (with a sense of humor) in many things and places. I see evidence of God in a grilled ear of corn, and a weed growing through a crack in the concrete. No point in arguing it, though.

I don't have any trouble reconciling any variety of science with my Deist beliefs, I'm completely comfortable with vast areas of uncertainty, and even utter ignorance about the true nature about the cosmic scheme. What makes me laugh are those who are absolutely sure of themselves.

It does seem I should reinforce the distinction I draw between agnosticism and atheism, though. Not knowing, and even not caring, is different from saying "no, there is not," and one can easily deny the existence of the white-bearded white male on a golden throne through pearly gates without denying the existence of the divine in any form.

< Message edited by TheHeretic -- 9/6/2009 7:31:56 PM >

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RE: Is Atheism a religion? - 9/6/2009 7:33:26 PM

Arpig

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quote:

I don't have any trouble reconciling any variety of science with my Deist beliefs, I'm completely comfortable with vast areas of uncertainty, and even utter ignorance about the true nature about the cosmic scheme.

I agree with this.I have never understood why people speak about a religion/science dichotomy. The two are not in opposition any more than French fries are in opposition to baked potatoes.

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RE: Is Atheism a religion? - 9/6/2009 7:41:15 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

What an obnoxious observation.

No, it's not. It's a fact.

People keep bringing up the damn thing. I don't care who worships treebark. I do care who tells me what I supposedly think and believe and lump me into a bunch of other people I don't know.

And THAT'S the point of the atheist label--to conveniently lump together the "group" for mischaracterization.

I didn't mischaracterize you, I said you were part of a group, which is true. You are a member of the subset that Atheism encompasses, of which a large amount of, IMO, display (notice not all), in the original I said on average, which infers not all as well, rigid thought.

Original Statement I made....
I don't consider atheism a religion but rather, a group that displays on the average the same tendency to rigid thought as the religious.

Yes, there are annoying anti-god idiots. There are annoying right-wing religious extremists. Neither represent a belief system, unless being an asshole is now a religion too.

Regardless if you like it or not, the whole point of labels is grouping, by saying you are an atheist you are participating in that act of grouping your self, that is not the equivalent of saying all atheists are completely identical in all regards, it is saying that all atheists don't believe in god, my observation is that in addition to that characteristic, rigid thought seems to be displayed to an abnormally high level, a characteristic I've seen in one other group that relates and that would be the highly religious.

I'm not sure where the argument lies in this back and forth, at least on the grouping front. You could argue that Atheists aren't more rigid than non-Atheists, I've no real objection, as that is largely perception based, but you are part of the Atheist Group, that is the whole point of the label.

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RE: Is Atheism a religion? - 9/6/2009 8:58:32 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig

quote:

A-theist just means not-theist, so anyone who lacks a belief in the existence of a god or gods counts.
And that IS the atheist view...that there is no God.

I don't agree that lacking the view that there is a god is the same as making the assertion that there is no god or that saying there is no god is the same as saying there is no God.

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RE: Is Atheism a religion? - 9/6/2009 9:01:17 PM

Arpig

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quote:

I don't agree that lacking the view that there is a god is the same as making the assertion that there is no god or that saying there is no god is the same as saying there is no God.

Jeez-Louise...this is like arguing with a born again christian...what you say just makes no sense. OK, so I capitalized the word God...I do that sometimes, and sometimes I don't, it doesn't change the fact that there is an "atheist view" of the cosmos, and that view is that there isn't a deity...is that neutral enough for you?

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RE: Is Atheism a religion? - 9/6/2009 9:11:46 PM

ThatDamnedPanda

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ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

Far from 'the only,' Panda. I just find dark matter, and "evidence" of it amusing to play with. It's much like the parallel universe/multiverse theories. I see the evidence of some sort of God (with a sense of humor) in many things and places. I see evidence of God in a grilled ear of corn, and a weed growing through a crack in the concrete. No point in arguing it, though.

I don't have any trouble reconciling any variety of science with my Deist beliefs, I'm completely comfortable with vast areas of uncertainty, and even utter ignorance about the true nature about the cosmic scheme. What makes me laugh are those who are absolutely sure of themselves.

In general, I'm far more troubled by the religious fundamentalists who are absolutely sure of their selves than I am by any of the atheists who are equally self-certain. As a progressive libertarian, I find that the religious extremists are far more dangerous to an advanced society and much more likely to impinge on my freedoms than than the atheists.

I have to say, though, that I occupy a peculiar seat at this discussion. I'm someone who believes absolutely and unequivocally in some sort of god or higher power; yet at the same time, I detest organized religions... am mostly horrified by them, in fact, especially christianity. Like you, I see evidence of god in every step I take; but the closer i happen to be to a church or priest, the less god I see, and the more evidence of humanity's weakness and corruption. So on the one hand, I can understand and identify with how religious people are able to believe in a god and to feel that their lives are informed and influenced by this belief; but on the other hand, I can also understand and agree with atheists' adamant insistence that people who identify as religious keep their belief systems the hell out of other peoples' lives. And whenever I climb out of the dugout and take a swing at this particular debate, I invariably wind up alienating and pissing off most of the people on both sides of the argument.

So, come to think of it, I guess it's not much different than any other argument I bustle into the middle of.

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