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RE: Is Atheism a religion? - 9/6/2009 9:12:01 PM   
chiaThePet


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Well, it is a non-prophet organization.

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RE: Is Atheism a religion? - 9/6/2009 9:18:00 PM   
tazzygirl


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curiosity here

why would a group of people who do not believe in religion/god/ect demand the same rights as those who do?
why would a group of men sue to be allowed to meet like other groups to discuss atheism if its just a lack of belief?

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RE: Is Atheism a religion? - 9/6/2009 9:24:08 PM   
ThatDamnedPanda


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl



why would a group of people who do not believe in religion/god/ect demand the same rights as those who do?


Why would they not?


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
why would a group of men sue to be allowed to meet like other groups to discuss atheism if its just a lack of belief?


I don't understand that question, either, I guess.


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RE: Is Atheism a religion? - 9/6/2009 9:25:52 PM   
tazzygirl


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Status: offline 		im not saying they cant... but.. in all honest.. what is there to talk about if you dont believe in something? and if you have the same belief as others do, isnt that a shared belief?

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RE: Is Atheism a religion? - 9/6/2009 9:31:11 PM   
ThatDamnedPanda


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

im not saying they cant... but.. in all honest.. what is there to talk about if you dont believe in something? and if you have the same belief as others do, isnt that a shared belief?


I still don't understand the question. When my book club meets, we don't meet to talk about beliefs - we meet to talk about books. We talk for hours without ever discussing our belief systems. I'm not sure what you're getting at.


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RE: Is Atheism a religion? - 9/6/2009 9:34:29 PM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

I understand religion as an individual's faith-based way of looking at the world, the universe, and our place in all of it.  Not by having "God," in the mix, not the practice of worship, but based on faith.  By that standard, I think atheism must be considered a religion.  When you start looking at the hoops they jump through to maintain the position, it even becomes a pretty wacky religion.  It also seems to attract a lot of angry people.

Thoughts?


My thoughts are why you recycled a topic that was debated to death only weeks ago.

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RE: Is Atheism a religion? - 9/6/2009 9:41:39 PM   
TheHeretic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: chiaThePet


Well, it is a non-prophet organization.





That's awful, Chia.  And now I need to wipe the screen.

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RE: Is Atheism a religion? - 9/6/2009 10:04:23 PM   
anthrosub


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Status: offline 		We all have our own degree of understanding...and that is where each of us is coming from. The OP obviously is not a physicist, so I think it's pointless to argue about Dark Matter or anything else with a scientific underpinning. But for what it's worth, the evidence that has been mentioned a few times that points to the existence of what scientists call "dark matter" (they could have chosen something else...it's just a name) is gravitational lensing. For those who don't know what that is, it's the bending effect of gravity on light waves. This is not a theory, it can be measured just as much as you can measure how tall you are or the weight of a cup of water. There is no need to "believe" in the existence of whatever dark matter is, the point is something is there...period. Scientists call it dark matter out of convenience. They also could have called it magic dust.

I think it would be better if you talked about things you know versus things you believe. The great thing about science is it's a work in progress as has already been explained here earlier in this thread. It is not a closed book. Scientists always expect to learn more and welcome anyone who can improve on or poke holes in their theory...even if it tears the whole thing down and they have to start over. Religion would be great if it took the same approach. But unfortunately religion basically states, "This is the world." and that's the end of the story. Scripture is not subject to revision like a theory is. It's why it's frozen in time while the living world has moved on. It causes problems and I think Galileo is a perfect example of that when he showed unquestionable proof that the planets orbit the sun.

The OP talks about seeing the existence of God in a weed growing in the crack of a sidewalk or an ear of corn. That's fine. But you could say you can see the existence of God in everything using that statement which is ultimately pointless. It's like saying everything is pointing up! I'm not writing to argue anything here. I just wanted to provide a few points to think about. The main problem that everyone seems to be stuck on is what is an atheist? Ask yourself why is it so important to have a label? I don't believe in God but I don't think of myself as an atheist. In fact, I don't think of it at all. I am who I am. If someone else needs to put a label on me so they can relate, that's their problem not mine. As I said in the beginning, we all have our degree of understanding.

Incidently, I have since a child always been fascinated that so many people on this Earth choose to follow what someone else says or writes instead of going into it and finding out for themselves what life is all about and who they really are.

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RE: Is Atheism a religion? - 9/6/2009 11:06:46 PM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig
Jeez-Louise...this is like arguing with a born again christian...what you say just makes no sense. OK, so I capitalized the word God...I do that sometimes, and sometimes I don't, it doesn't change the fact that there is an "atheist view" of the cosmos, and that view is that there isn't a deity...is that neutral enough for you?


Sorry to be so nitpicky but the different wordings do mean different things. Capitalizing the G makes god a proper noun as in the specific christian god. So just capitalizing the g would arguably include other religions such as Hinduism in atheism. Maybe you're right and there is a position generic enough to encompass the various atheist views, something like atheism is a lack of faith in any gods. I'm not really sure that works but it's 2am. Hopefully I'll be more understandable in the morning.

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RE: Is Atheism a religion? - 9/6/2009 11:26:45 PM   
Arpig


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quote:

Capitalizing the G makes god a proper noun as in the specific christian god. So just capitalizing the g would arguably include other religions such as Hinduism in atheism.
Wrong, capitalizing it only implies a monotheistic deity, not the cgristian one...his name is Yahweh (or latinized into Jehovah). And Hindus, despite their apparent polytheism actually have a very strong and ancient monotheistic belief inherent in their scriptures, so they aren't included simply by capitalising the word. Your cultural bias is showing.

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RE: Is Atheism a religion? - 9/7/2009 1:01:13 AM   
Brain


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Status: offline 		Exactly! Bravo, well said. This is just like Darwin and evolution. 200 years later, with DNA and other discoveries his theory is still true and verified with even stronger scientific evidence to support it today!


NewsHour Extra: 200 Years Later, Darwin's Theories Still INspire Science, Economics and Politics | February 13, 2009 | PBS

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/extra/features/science/jan-june09/darwin_02-13.html



Can evolution explain how minds work?

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v458/n7240/full/458832a.html

"Darwin's theory of evolution by natural selection is broadly accepted among biologists, but its implications for the study of cognition are far from clear. Few within the scientific pale would argue against the proposition that life on Earth has evolved and that this general principle can be extended to the process of thought."

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

dark matter theory


The difference, Rich, is that in a faith-based model, a label is the end of the discussion. In science, there's this phenomenon, we have to call it something so we call it dark matter for now--and investigate it. It's the beginning of the conversation, not the end.

I think debating whether nonbelief = belief is inherently silly, so we'll just have to leave it at that. If up = down, if illogical = logical, meaningful conversation is fruitless. We're in Alice's courtroom.




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RE: Is Atheism a religion? - 9/7/2009 1:38:39 AM   
Arpig


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Status: offline 		I wondered when you would show up on this thread with your usual off topic links...you are a prime example of an atheist who takes his atheism religiously. Oh,,,by the way, you still haven't shown how biology, etc. disproves the existence of a god and I'm still waiting for either the proof or your admission that you were talking shit with no facts to back it up.

< Message edited by Arpig -- 9/7/2009 2:28:57 AM >

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RE: Is Atheism a religion? - 9/7/2009 4:45:45 AM   
thishereboi


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SpinnerofTales

There is one major problem with Atheism as a religion: no holidays.


I have dated a few atheist in the past and while they were very firm in their unbeliefs, they never had any problems accepting christmas presents. In fact they would tell me ahead of time what they wanted.  Now I am sure there are athiests out there who have nothing to do with the holiday, but I have not met one yet.

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RE: Is Atheism a religion? - 9/7/2009 5:02:37 AM   
KatyLied


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quote:

Incidently, I have since a child always been fascinated that so many people on this Earth choose to follow what someone else says or writes instead of going into it and finding out for themselves what life is all about and who they really are.


Critical thinking can be scary.  It can also force people to consider discarding things they've believed (without question) for years.  Uncomfortable propositions for many.


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RE: Is Atheism a religion? - 9/7/2009 6:16:39 AM   
MadameHcalls


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< Message edited by MadameHcalls -- 9/7/2009 6:21:59 AM >

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RE: Is Atheism a religion? - 9/7/2009 6:27:40 AM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi

quote:

ORIGINAL: SpinnerofTales

There is one major problem with Atheism as a religion: no holidays.


I have dated a few atheist in the past and while they were very firm in their unbeliefs, they never had any problems accepting christmas presents. In fact they would tell me ahead of time what they wanted.  Now I am sure there are athiests out there who have nothing to do with the holiday, but I have not met one yet.

You have now.

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RE: Is Atheism a religion? - 9/7/2009 6:29:41 AM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
why would a group of people who do not believe in religion/god/ect demand the same rights as those who do?

Because atheists should not have to fear losing their jobs or homes due to their lack of faith.

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RE: Is Atheism a religion? - 9/7/2009 6:34:28 AM   
MadameMarque


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Now, if legally those who don't adopt a faith find their rights are inhibited, then legally, they become a class. But not a religion.


Now, isn't that what I said, if you hadn't conveniently clipped it out of my quote?:

quote:

ORIGINAL: MadameMarque

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

According to the US Court of Appeals for the Seventh Circuit and Supreme Court Rulings....

It is, legally, a religion.


Without actually reading the decision, I'm going to venture that they were upholding the right of atheists to be protected by laws and constitutional rights using the term "religion," because although atheism isn't a religion, it is a "religious belief," a belief regarding religion, so that in the spirit of the law, the same laws are intended to protect the rights of atheists and agnostics.

 
quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery
quote:

ORIGINAL: MadameMarque

I understand that atheists do not feel that theirs is a faith-based cosmology, because they depend upon what can be detected by the senses to determine what is true and real.  To me, it seems to be based upon complete faith in the senses and the material world as the ultimate and true last word on a finite reality.


Then you make giant assumptions. Not everyone believes they know everything. Scientists certainly don't. You leave no room for learning, for not knowing.


Wouldn't that be agnosticism you're talking about?  I thought that atheism was the belief that there is no diety, and agnoticism was holding no belief regarding diety, 'a-gnosis.'

I don't know how I implied that there was someone who thinks they know everything - ?  

quote:

Original: Musicmystery

Again, what's presented here is the faithful needing to label the Others. The label is meaningless but to the faithful.

I've got no "need" - I don't really relate to what you're trying to say, here, except that it seems you make some assumption.  If you assume I'm coming from the construct that atheism or agnoticism are less valid than other beliefs or absence of belief, you are mistaken. 

I will observe that you are fond of labeling "the faithful" as a group, lumping them together and characterizing them.  So I'm not sure why you're so touchy, when someone even refers to atheists as a group of people.  Yeah, they're the group of people who are atheists, that's all.  If someone makes careless or incorrect generalizations about them, then you'd have something to complain about.

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RE: Is Atheism a religion? - 9/7/2009 6:42:58 AM   
SpinnerofTales


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quote:

I have dated a few atheist in the past and while they were very firm in their unbeliefs, they never had any problems accepting christmas presents. In fact they would tell me ahead of time what they wanted. Now I am sure there are athiests out there who have nothing to do with the holiday, but I have not met one yet.
ORIGINAL: thishereboi



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RE: Is Atheism a religion? - 9/7/2009 6:46:42 AM   
anthrosub


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quote:

ORIGINAL: KatyLied

quote:

Incidently, I have since a child always been fascinated that so many people on this Earth choose to follow what someone else says or writes instead of going into it and finding out for themselves what life is all about and who they really are.


Critical thinking can be scary.  It can also force people to consider discarding things they've believed (without question) for years.  Uncomfortable propositions for many.



I have considered that and encountered it directly when talking with people about this topic over the years. I think the experience of this was best described in Plato's, "The Republic" using the cave analogy. So many have had their mind embedded with the status quo for so long they experience psychological pain when the curtain is pulled back...if it is pulled back.

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