RE: 14% Jump in Healtchare Reform Approval

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RE: 14% Jump in Healtchare Reform Approval - 9/10/2009 10:10:39 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: rikigrl

i don't mean to hijack the thread Spinner (i have much admiration for the calm tenor you maintain when all about you are frothing at the mouth) but since someone brought up booing during a State of the Union address here's an interesting take on the Wilson outburst.....

Joe Wilson Can be Court-Martialed for Violating Article 88 of UCMJ
Rep. Joe Wilson who is a colonel in the Army Reserves can be court-martialed for violating Article 88 of the UCMJ

Article 88 of the UCMJ states

“Any commissioned officer who uses contemptuous words against the President, the Vice President, Congress, the Secretary of Defense, the Secretary of a military department, the Secretary of Transportation, or the Governor or legislature of any State, Territory, Commonwealth, or possession in which he is on duty or present shall be punished as a court-martial may direct.”

Such a tack might run into an issue with Article I, Section 6, Clause 1, of the U.S. Constitution which states in part,

for any Speech or Debate in either House, [senators and representatives] shall not be questioned in any other place.

It would certainly be an interesting legal battle, though.

Firm

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RE: 14% Jump in Healtchare Reform Approval - 9/10/2009 10:11:17 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydawg

Funny, the article itself mentions why the poll numbers aren't valid. In the next paragraph. But I guess Dems got to take any positive spin they can get.

"However, the audience for the speech appeared to be more Democratic than the U.S. population as a whole, causing the poll organizers to warn the results may favor Obama simply because more Democrats than Republicans tuned in.

In addition, the pollsters noted, the results don't reflect the the views of all Americans, only those who watched the speech"

Say what you like, lucky...I still say a 14% boost off of one speech is a heck of an achievment from a political standpoint. I've said it before and I'll say it again, Obama knows how to talk.

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RE: 14% Jump in Healtchare Reform Approval - 9/10/2009 10:15:06 AM

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Except I am not saying it Spinner. The people who conducted the poll you are citing said it. In the article you cited.

It's not a 14% boost, at least according to the people who conducted the poll.

But you can pretend its good news, I guess it's the best you got.

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RE: 14% Jump in Healtchare Reform Approval - 9/10/2009 10:15:24 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

quote:

Such a tack might run into an issue with Article I, Section 6, Clause 1, of the U.S. Constitution which states in part,

for any Speech or Debate in either House, [senators and representatives] shall not be questioned in any other place.

It would certainly be an interesting legal battle, though.

I would tend to agree that congressional immunity would prevail here. However, it could be argued that, as in other matters, millitary law for a serving member, prevails over civil law. Soldiers are held legally accountable for a number of things that would be unconstitutional if civilly applied. Also, lawyers could that his outcry was not speech in debate in either house, but rather a speech made during a speech, as it were.

Either way, they're not going to do it....but it does raise interesting legal theory points.

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RE: 14% Jump in Healtchare Reform Approval - 9/10/2009 10:17:51 AM

BKSir

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EDIT: Sorry, posted to the wrong thread. >.<

< Message edited by BKSir -- 9/10/2009 10:20:26 AM >

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RE: 14% Jump in Healtchare Reform Approval - 9/10/2009 10:21:33 AM

Arpig

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Never mind...after reading through the thread I see the point has been brought up already...move along, nothing to see here

< Message edited by Arpig -- 9/10/2009 10:30:09 AM >

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RE: 14% Jump in Healtchare Reform Approval - 9/10/2009 11:01:39 AM

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Regarding the CNN poll -

quote:

The sample of speech-watchers in this poll was 45 percent Democratic and 18 percent Republican. Our best estimate of the number of Democrats in the voting age population as a whole indicates that the sample is about 8-10 points more Democratic than the population as a whole.

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2009/09/10/cnn-poll-double-digit-post-speech-jump-for-obama-plan/

That paragraph is hidden neatly at the bottom of the page. Eventually people will learn that they can't trust anything they see or hear on CNN.

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RE: 14% Jump in Healtchare Reform Approval - 9/10/2009 11:05:30 AM

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Because its an accurate poll, and not a trumped up CNN poll.

Reality matters.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

What poll are you looking at. Not this one...

quote:

The survey was released Wednesday before his nationally televised effort to persuade Congress and voters to back his drive to reshape the nation's $2.5 trillion-a-year medical system.

Why would we be looking at a poll done before the speech for the effects of the speech? Not even a good try at disinformation. You actually included the information showing the article was off topic in the part you quoted.

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RE: 14% Jump in Healtchare Reform Approval - 9/10/2009 11:55:54 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity
That paragraph is hidden neatly at the bottom of the page. Eventually people will learn that they can't trust anything they see or hear on CNN.

What??? They expected you to read an entire page? Those bastards! They should know that for some people, trying to read an entire page to get an accurate view of what was said is like reading War and Peace for most people!

I want to extend my grattitude for your finding a source to debunk their article by looking in.....the very same article.

Yep..you can't trust CNN.

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RE: 14% Jump in Healtchare Reform Approval - 9/10/2009 12:03:42 PM

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Its hardly hidden at the bottom of the page, in the first paragraphs it mentions the 14 % jump was on speech watchers...from your own link Sanity
WASHINGTON (CNN) — Two out of three Americans who watched President Barack Obama's health care reform speech Wednesday night favor his health care plans — a 14-point gain among speech-watchers, according to a CNN/Opinion Research Corporation national poll of people who tuned into Obama's address Wednesday night to a joint session of Congress.

Where is the trumping up??? wheres the dishonesty, wheres the spin???

I see booing the president vastly different to calling him a liar during a speech, wether its been done before or not, or who by.
Redstate.com stated today "Joe Wilson is now a serious threat to Barack Obama because he dared point out that the Emperor has no clothes. The left will target him. The left will target his family. The left will try to destroy Joe Wilson."
I think Joe did that to himself. His buddies are calling him a great american hero.... their standards are awfully low, but that is no surprise.

I loved the look on Pelosi's face, I bet she was thinking up some horrible torture scene for him...snorts
Lucy

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RE: 14% Jump in Healtchare Reform Approval - 9/10/2009 12:21:50 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

Joe Wilson is now a serious threat to Barack Obama because he dared point out that the Emperor has no clothes. The left will target him. The left will target his family. The left will try to destroy Joe Wilson."

Actually, if Obama had done the speech with no clothes, he might have gotten an 18% jump in appproval. To quote Blazing Saddles "Excuse me while I whip this out (whipping out his speech")

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RE: 14% Jump in Healtchare Reform Approval - 9/10/2009 12:22:58 PM

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I thought it was a good speech and he covered all the particulars pretty well.
When he said that "illegal aliens ("undocumented immigrants?") won't be covered under this Bill" that certainly made it much more paletable to a lot of voters who are tired of being defrauded by foreign nationals to the tune of hunreds of billions.
I just wish he used the proper term "illegal aliens" instead of the mealy-mouthed "undocumented immigrants."
If the congress will add strict language to the Bill stating what President Obama said then I think the Bill will be supported by the American People.

P.S. if Obama ever tries to have *another* "amnesty" for illegal aliens he's going to run into a shit storm brick wall.
That's the surest way to be a one-term president!

< Message edited by popeye1250 -- 9/10/2009 12:26:13 PM >

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RE: 14% Jump in Healtchare Reform Approval - 9/10/2009 12:27:36 PM

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LMAO Spinner, but he had that big ol lectern in front of him, it would have been too distracting, for me anyway:)

He is certainly one hell of a speech giver, with or without clothes.
WIlson was treated with the contempt he deserves, just a "thats not true" from Obama and then carried on, He has Class :)

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RE: 14% Jump in Healtchare Reform Approval - 9/10/2009 12:40:12 PM

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quote:

When he said that "illegal aliens ("undocumented immigrants?") won't be covered under this Bill" that certainly made it much more paletable to a lot of voters who are tired of being defrauded by foreign nationals to the tune of hunreds of billions.

The reason this issue was sited as a "lie" was that although there is language alluding to disqualifying undocumented immigrants, there is zero verification required prior to treatment. It's the medical version of 'don't ask - don't tell' except this is 'you can't ask - spend US tax dollars'.

Nathan Deal offered an amendment that would use a verification program to prevent undocumented immigrants from receiving government provided health care services; but it was killed in committee.

As the Bill is currently written there is no way to prevent undocumented workers from walking into any provider and getting coverage.

However, when the 'amnesty' shoe falls next it will be a moot point.

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RE: 14% Jump in Healtchare Reform Approval - 9/10/2009 12:53:54 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

I thought it was a good speech and he covered all the particulars pretty well.
When he said that "illegal aliens ("undocumented immigrants?") won't be covered under this Bill" that certainly made it much more paletable to a lot of voters who are tired of being defrauded by foreign nationals to the tune of hunreds of billions.
I just wish he used the proper term "illegal aliens" instead of the mealy-mouthed "undocumented immigrants."
If the congress will add strict language to the Bill stating what President Obama said then I think the Bill will be supported by the American People.

P.S. if Obama ever tries to have *another* "amnesty" for illegal aliens he's going to run into a shit storm brick wall.
That's the surest way to be a one-term president!

I think he was tiptoeing around this subject because I believe legal aliens will be covered. Lots of people don’t want that either considering there is no clear-cut method to pay for the plan yet.

Will except that here in Missouri, on local news, they are saying Obama has said part of the solution for payment is to add a tax on soda…He states our children drink far too much anyway.

L

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RE: 14% Jump in Healtchare Reform Approval - 9/10/2009 12:54:42 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

quote:

When he said that "illegal aliens ("undocumented immigrants?") won't be covered under this Bill" that certainly made it much more paletable to a lot of voters who are tired of being defrauded by foreign nationals to the tune of hunreds of billions.

The reason this issue was sited as a "lie" was that although there is language alluding to disqualifying undocumented immigrants, there is zero verification required prior to treatment. It's the medical version of 'don't ask - don't tell' except this is 'you can't ask - spend US tax dollars'.

Nathan Deal offered an amendment that would use a verification program to prevent undocumented immigrants from receiving government provided health care services; but it was killed in committee.

As the Bill is currently written there is no way to prevent undocumented workers from walking into any provider and getting coverage.

However, when the 'amnesty' shoe falls next it will be a moot point.

Merc, I am going to try to call you on this because, as I've said before, this is not a thread about policies. It's a thread about politics. And from the game of politics, it doesn't matter if it's true, false or in between. In political terms, if it pumps the numbers, it's good. Machievellian, perhaps, but as Hunter Thompson once said, eventually all politics becomes about the numbers.

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RE: 14% Jump in Healtchare Reform Approval - 9/10/2009 1:03:17 PM

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~FR

Regarding the denial of illegals obtaining health care... i wondered about that too.. for a different reason. There is a law forbidding hospitals from turning away anyone with a medical emergency. However, it has become a new trend to triage, then refuse treatment if the Dr determines its not a medical emergency. Dangerous territory there... but not for this thread.

And why didnt mor Republicans tune in? wouldnt you want to know what your opposition says? or are they just relying upon what they are told? I find it amazing that people who have stated that Obama's plan is hazardous... then dont listen to what he says. But thats politics for ya.

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RE: 14% Jump in Healtchare Reform Approval - 9/10/2009 1:27:09 PM

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His claim that the public option will not cover Illegal Aliens is misleading. From what I've read, as long as someone has a driver's license they will be considered a citizen and no further questions will be asked. There's no possible way people can wait a few weeks to receive their birth certificate in the mail when they need immediate healthcare.

It's also a fact that anyone who needs lifesaving or pain relieving treatment will receive it no matter what their legal status which is as it should be. The point should be that if they weren't here Illegally in the first place, then we wouldn't have to pay for them. Mexico now has modern hospitals, and plenty of doctors. We are not responsible for their medical care. A better option would be to deport anyone who needs non emergency medical care.

We all know that there are several states who have made the mistake of giving them driver's licenses which has resulted in even more fraud, identity theft, drunk driving with more fatalities, and no vehicle Insurance which makes your insurance higher. As it stands now anyone in the world can walk across the border or fly in on a plane and we are responsible for their medical care. In addition, once they require only a driver's license, then anyone can fly in on a plane, live with a relative, get a drivers license, and we are responsible for even the most expensive treatments including heart operations, and cancer treatments.

I will admit that we need a local public option to cover legal citizens who fall through the cracks, but a government ran public option that will eventually turn out to be larger than the Social Security Program will simply bankrupt this country.

On top of all this, the federal government doesn't even have the constitutional authority to implement a healthcare system. The 10th amendment specifically says

"The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."

The interstate commerce clause does not apply here, since healthcare is a locally conducted business. A local person walks into their local hospital. It's not like you're doing business with a hospital in China or even in another state. Now certainly they have the authority to regulate medical equipment that is sold across state lines, and they have the authority to help mitigate epidemics since an epidemic would affect interstate commerce, but that is all.

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RE: 14% Jump in Healtchare Reform Approval - 9/10/2009 1:31:16 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

quote:

When he said that "illegal aliens ("undocumented immigrants?") won't be covered under this Bill" that certainly made it much more paletable to a lot of voters who are tired of being defrauded by foreign nationals to the tune of hunreds of billions.

The reason this issue was sited as a "lie" was that although there is language alluding to disqualifying undocumented immigrants, there is zero verification required prior to treatment. It's the medical version of 'don't ask - don't tell' except this is 'you can't ask - spend US tax dollars'.

Nathan Deal offered an amendment that would use a verification program to prevent undocumented immigrants from receiving government provided health care services; but it was killed in committee.

As the Bill is currently written there is no way to prevent undocumented workers from walking into any provider and getting coverage.

However, when the 'amnesty' shoe falls next it will be a moot point.

Merc, and I think that if Obama even tries *another* "amnesty" his presidency will for all intents and purposes be *over.* How could we ever trust him again?
President Obama*committed* himself lastnight when he made that statement to the congress and to The People!
If one (1) illegal alien gets any medical care under this Bill or Obama even tries any type of "amnesty" so that they do then "You Lie!" will become the truth!
He's walked right into it.

< Message edited by popeye1250 -- 9/10/2009 1:33:10 PM >

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RE: 14% Jump in Healtchare Reform Approval - 9/10/2009 1:53:29 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

Its hardly hidden at the bottom of the page, in the first paragraphs it mentions the 14 % jump was on speech watchers...from your own link Sanity
WASHINGTON (CNN) — Two out of three Americans who watched President Barack Obama's health care reform speech Wednesday night favor his health care plans — a 14-point gain among speech-watchers, according to a CNN/Opinion Research Corporation national poll of people who tuned into Obama's address Wednesday night to a joint session of Congress.

I am really, truly starting to think its useless to argue politics or anything else, until you first determine someone's ability to comprehend. One link, two interpretations.

Interesting.

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