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RE: Principles of a Female Led Relationship - 9/22/2009 1:59:11 PM

Lockit

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I agree with LP too!

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RE: Principles of a Female Led Relationship - 9/22/2009 3:52:16 PM

ShaktiSama

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Meh. I don't agree with LP on this issue. I am not interested in protocol and I have no vested interest in ageism, so her definition of "standards" are not appealing to me.

I was dominant at 18 and I am dominant now. I have been called "Mistress" by many people over the years, in a wide variety of relationships, and the word had a wide variety of meanings to the people who used it. It was not a less meaningful word in my personal life because it was defined by ME and MY PARTNERS rather having the term and its meaning imposed from outside, by some self-appointed committee of know-it-alls.

Protocol does absolutely Zip Nothing for me, and I have seen plenty of dominants in their early 20's, male and female, who were far more experienced, trustworthy and "masterful" than the analogous 40-somethings in the same geographic community. I find it interesting that the female dominant community is less authoritarian and damning than the male dominant community, if this is actually the case, but I don't think it makes us in any way inferior or "less".

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RE: Principles of a Female Led Relationship - 9/22/2009 4:19:55 PM

LadyPact

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The point I was illustrating, Shatki, is that often, there is no standard for females at all, but we sure have them when it comes to our male counterparts.

Some protocols actually say that a female must be treated with the same courtesy as any male in the same role. That came about because it was a little tougher to get into this when it was still the old boys club. It's not as bad today. I will tell you that I've never personally had that problem. I've always seen it as I didn't want to put in any less work, have less dedication, or apply less effort than any other male out there.

It's not an age thing. It is an experience thing. The two Dominants of different genders could be 40 when they are starting out and they get the same responses. All of the woman pass go and collect two hundred dollars. The male gets stuck in free parking.

This even applies in cases of topping. MP and I do a lot of traveling and have the opportunity to go to a number of lifestyle events across the country. We've gone places where no one has ever met us before. We just show up at play parties with toys in hand. Guess which one of us gets more opportunities because of gender? We aren't treated the same. I can promise you that.

Even in your own description above, you applied the term to your relationships. Fair enough. Why are we so ready to tell someone they aren't a Master if they've never been the head of a M/s dynamic or owned a slave, where if it's a female who slaps the title Mistress on her name with no basis of foundation, that is perfectly acceptable? I understand that our opinions are different in the matter, but to Me, there is no logical reason for there to be a difference in these things due to gender.

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RE: Principles of a Female Led Relationship - 9/22/2009 4:47:03 PM

ShaktiSama

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Well, obviously I can only speak for myself here, but...I'm not really part of the phenomenon you're talking about. I actually am NOT eager to tell male dominants of any age whether they can call themselves "master" or not. I can't imagine a reason in the world why my opinion on the subject would count for anything, because I sure as hell am not going to submit to any man, no matter how Domly or Master-worthy he is.

In general, I think that the people who really stand in judgment of a man's worthiness to dominate are not Dominant Women, or even other Dominant Men, but their own submissive partners. Who else really has a say in the matter, or SHOULD have a say in the matter, of what you are called by your own partner in your own relationship? What outsider could possibly have an opinion that trumps that of the person who yields his/her power to you?

If my opinion about the definition of a word is asked, it isn't about a "standard of worthiness" that a person has to meet--it's simply an opinion about which definition of a word makes more sense, or might convey more useful information, in a very, very general way. Yes, obviously I think "Master/Mistress" and "Dominus/Domina" are words that make more sense when you apply them to deeper power exchanges in which the submissive partner is a "slave", and that more egalitarian relationships might better be described as top/bottom or simple D/S. But that's just an opinion and it's just an opinion about a matter of semantics, not about a standard of practices or a marker of age or experience.

Personally, I think the people who need to apply high standards to dominants are the submissives in the community, and that they are the final arbiters of who deserves to receive these titles. Call me crazy, but it means about thirty billion times more to me whether Aidan calls me "Mistress" than whether some other domme thinks I'm "worthy" of the title.

Edit to add: Just as an aside, I am not disputing that there are differences in how male and female dominants are received or treated in the community. I actually think that there might be an analogy to how women, especially desirable women, tend to be treated in ANY community based on expressing one's sexuality, though. This goes back to the different value placed on male and female sexuality that permeates our society--right down to the "Ladies Night" phenomenon at bars.

< Message edited by ShaktiSama -- 9/22/2009 4:50:39 PM >

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RE: Principles of a Female Led Relationship - 9/22/2009 4:58:33 PM

Lockit

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The submissive's have often expressed how unhappy they are. I had one tell me of how he watched the threads and how a female submissive would say something and a male submissive would say something and both said the same something and how different the answer's were. I have seen similar things for the dominant's. I have seen men called fake, topper's, complainer's for saying the same things women would say and get coddled for. For example... A female submissive complained that while on orgasm control her dominant teased her sexually and everyone said it wasn't right for him to test her like that. For a male, it is common practice. (Though some may like this as part of the kink.. it is still treated differently around here.)

A female dominant can ask for money and many do and yet I have to wonder what a male dominant would be put through if he did... I don't care about demand. Demanding something because it is in demand, doesn't make it right. Look at gas gauging and how people take advantage. In mnay situations it isn't respected and sometimes unlawful.

Male dominant's are often told they don't know what they are doing, have no experience and are considered bad and yet a new female dominant comes in and everyone encourages her and don't slam dunk her for the most part.

I am not feeling good and can't give better examples at the moment or look back and bring in links... but there are differences and many are not fair or right in my opinion. It has little to do with protocol. Sometimes it is simply a matter of higher demand and women can get away with it. Which I think is total bullshit. (hey... I had to get one cuss word in here.)

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RE: Principles of a Female Led Relationship - 9/22/2009 5:10:07 PM

ShaktiSama

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Well, honestly I don't see women "getting away" with anything. Male submissives often enjoy and beg for orgasm control; I hardly think that female dominants are abusive for playing a game that their partners enjoy. Female dominants sometimes mention a financial component to the relationship, certainly, but they are also bashed quite brutally on a routine basis as "whores" "fakers" "scammers" etc. for doing so.

If male dominants, especially new male dominants, are bashed by their older or more experienced peers when they post here, rather than being accepted and encouraged--please explain to me exactly how the hell does that reflect badly on US?

Isn't it possible that male dominants are just more motivated to eliminate as much of the competition for available partners as possible by invalidating and attacking each other? And if so, couldn't it possibly be a GOOD thing if female dominants are more accepting and encouraging to people who are newcomers to the ranks?

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RE: Principles of a Female Led Relationship - 9/22/2009 5:19:50 PM

Lockit

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I didn't say it was the male dominant's dissing the new male dominant's.

And many female dominant's won't diss someone asking for money... but I do wonder if the male dominant's would be so accepting of a male dominant asking for money.

I just see differences whether I can prove them or not. It is my opinion based on a few years on the online thing and in life to a lesser degree... that women get away with things a man could not.

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RE: Principles of a Female Led Relationship - 9/22/2009 5:34:10 PM

aidan

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lockit

I didn't say it was the male dominant's dissing the new male dominant's.

Are you suggesting that it is then the submissives who are being negative, or that it's Female Dominants? And I have to say that I have seen many older male dominants be negative towards younger ones, so they certainly do contribute to the phenomenon.

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RE: Principles of a Female Led Relationship - 9/22/2009 5:46:39 PM

Lockit

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Yes they do... but so do submissive's of all gender's and dominant's of all genders.

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RE: Principles of a Female Led Relationship - 9/22/2009 6:09:19 PM

ShaktiSama

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Well, I assume this is true and that I have just missed it because I am not paying enough attention to male dominant threads/issues. But if it is true that younger male dominants are treated badly, then maybe this says something about our community and its attitudes toward younger men in general. Perhaps those attitudes could use some changing.

Either way, I'm afraid I will never think it is a bad thing if the younger female dominants are treated well, or kindly, or fairly by us older gals. If there is ill-treatment of males in general in our community, and younger males in particular, then it's probably a sign that the males need to be treated better. Not that females need to be treated worse to "even the score".

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RE: Principles of a Female Led Relationship - 9/23/2009 11:07:54 AM

LadyHibiscus

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I know that I treat women well, generally... and don't notice men all that much!

LP and I identify as Leather, which is a world apart from much of the BDSM community, no matter how much I think it's not.

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RE: Principles of a Female Led Relationship - 9/23/2009 1:45:57 PM

NoreenSwan

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Women will always get more opportunity for sex stuff because for the simple fact that we're more desirable then men. That being said, you're right about women getting treated differently. But c'mon ...... years and years of abuse, rape and oppression by male patriarchal society, yeppers......that's being treated differently than men. And what did all the bully violence accomplish? Thank god men today, well most, have woken up and are better behaved. For the record I just got to say I have no idea who is telling men they aren't' a master if they have no experience. Who's saying that to them? What survey did you conduct? There's a ton of men with no experience who are making great tops. Was it other men who said that to other men? I doubt its dominant women saying that because their egos aren't fragile to even care enough. Is it sub women saying that? Well then hell, maybe they got standards which is why. Oye, beats me. I never seen what you're going through.

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RE: Principles of a Female Led Relationship - 9/23/2009 3:14:12 PM

pyroaquatic

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HEY!!!

I am a desirable cake!

I am listening in onto this, but I have not formed an excellent opinion yet.

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RE: Principles of a Female Led Relationship - 9/23/2009 3:48:20 PM

blmtrsne

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I think most woman are more cultural, social, interested in life and environment. The men I know are happy to please us (even delivering an orgasm is important to them), and tend to do things. So patting them on the head (good boy) and training them to serve is what arrouses them. I'm taking advantage of the situation to go out and have some cultural fun while my slave is happy to take over some tasks.

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RE: Principles of a Female Led Relationship - 9/23/2009 5:35:56 PM

LadyPact

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quote:

ORIGINAL: NoreenSwan

Women will always get more opportunity for sex stuff because for the simple fact that we're more desirable then men. That being said, you're right about women getting treated differently. But c'mon ...... years and years of abuse, rape and oppression by male patriarchal society, yeppers......that's being treated differently than men. And what did all the bully violence accomplish? Thank god men today, well most, have woken up and are better behaved. For the record I just got to say I have no idea who is telling men they aren't' a master if they have no experience. Who's saying that to them? What survey did you conduct? There's a ton of men with no experience who are making great tops. Was it other men who said that to other men? I doubt its dominant women saying that because their egos aren't fragile to even care enough. Is it sub women saying that? Well then hell, maybe they got standards which is why. Oye, beats me. I never seen what you're going through.

I don't think it has anything to do with anyone's ego being fragile. Some people do have different definitions for top, Dominant, and Master/Mistress accordingly. I happen to be one of those people. While there is some overlap and someone can undoubtedly be all three, it isn't necessarily the case for everyone. For example, there are submissives who top, but are not Dominant in personality. There are plenty of tops out there who have never participated in a M/s dynamic. There are some Masters of slaves who do no topping at all. They prefer not to have S/m as a part of their dynamic.

Being one of those who has different definitions for those three terms, if someone asks, even on a message board, I don't have a problem telling them My opinion. I tell people flat out that the standards I have for those terms is pretty high. I'm not going to dumb them down just to make someone feel better because they are starting on day one and want to call themselves MasterFucklaroyEstemed when they've never had any experience owning an s-type. If I can make that statement when it comes to males, I should have the balls to say it when it applies to females, too.

The years of oppression, yadda, yadda..... I don't apply that to Myself. Nobody owes Me a damn thing because those of My gender had to suffer those things. I'm not saying it didn't exist. I'm saying that what they suffered shouldn't grant Me any different treatment than anyone else.

There's no need to conduct a survey, though it might be interesting to see the results. Granted, the statements that I made about males being treated differently than females coming on to the scene are My opinion. However, I obviously am not the only one who has noticed it. I also have the opinion that it is not confined to this half of the kneel. I've seen the same thing when it comes to s types. New male subs are often raked over the coals and quickly labeled as trolls. I don't see that happening with females nearly as often.

For clarification, the example I used prior was not regarding "sex stuff". It was based on topping opportunities, etc. in casual play where no physical sex was involved.

ETA While it won't bring forth any hard scientific results, I did create a poll for opinions on the subject. It can be found here. http://www.collarchat.com/m_2817811/tm.htm

< Message edited by LadyPact -- 9/23/2009 5:58:05 PM >

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RE: Principles of a Female Led Relationship - 9/23/2009 6:18:35 PM

ShaktiSama

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Well, I'm not sure how to respond to the idea that allowing people decide what they want to be called is "dumbing down" some kind of a high standard. If people tell me they want to be called "Michael" rather than "Mike" or "Mikey", I generally don't insist that they have to EARN the right to be called "Michael", and try to exert power over them by saying "You'll be Mikey until I say otherwise". And to be fair, I feel similarly about people who would prefer to be called "Native American" or "First Nations" rather than "Indian". Applying or removing a personal identity label without permission strikes me as extremely high-handed and rude.

Perhaps it's true that people who come to bdsm fresh sometimes choose a handle that reflects their aspirations and goals, rather than their actual achievements or current relationships...but it's pretty over-the-top to tell young MasterBlowMe that he can't call himself "Master" because...um...well basically because you say so. Especially given that there really is not any real legitimate harm done to anyone based on his being allowed to use the word "Master" to assert his dominant identity.

If people actually CHOOSE to submit themselves to a rigidly hierarchical sub-culture like Old Guard Leather, where other people get to decide what you're allowed to call yourself and when? Groovy, I guess. I wouln't ever allow a group of complete strangers to control any aspect of my life that was so deeply personal, and any attempt to impose group "standards" on my personal identity and relationships would make me extremely angry.

Anyway. If it's "dumb" to treat people in this community with courtesy, tolerance and respect, at least until the time that they prove that they cannot be courteous and respectful themselves? That's fne. Guess I'm dumb. But at least this thread will remind me to avoid any double standards!

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RE: Principles of a Female Led Relationship - 9/24/2009 12:02:06 AM

LadyPact

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I'm curious to know what leads you to think that the leather community is made up of complete strangers. There are a number of folks from across the country who know each other from place to place as we see each other at the same events a number of times during the year. It's no different than any other type of BDSM community. There are rope enthusiasts who see each other at ShibariCon and similar events that know each other and have the same type of common link.

It's true that many people chose a name that is an aspiration, rather than a reflection of who they are and what experiences they have encountered. I could start calling Myself an expert horse trainer, thinking that is what I might want to do that someday. There would be no harm in that, right? Until someone actually expected Me to train a horse Then, I'd have to admit that I was just calling Myself what I wanted to be, instead of who I really was.

And, I'm honestly not saying that people have to live up to the standards that I've set for Myself. That is their own personal choice. They can be a self appointed Mistress/Master all they like, but it doesn't mean that I'm going to agree with them. They are absolutely free to have their own standard, just the same as I'm entitled to Mine.

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RE: Principles of a Female Led Relationship - 9/24/2009 6:16:34 AM

choccywoc

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Er...do female subs like their masters to sit on their faces?

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RE: Principles of a Female Led Relationship - 9/24/2009 6:56:12 AM

aidan

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

I'm curious to know what leads you to think that the leather community is made up of complete strangers. There are a number of folks from across the country who know each other from place to place as we see each other at the same events a number of times during the year. It's no different than any other type of BDSM community. There are rope enthusiasts who see each other at ShibariCon and similar events that know each other and have the same type of common link.

But people in the leather community, or in the shibari community, or any community, do not know each other when they first enter into it. When you first enter or join a community, the people in it are for the most part indeed strangers. They are people you are not familiar with.

And even further, just because we are familiar with people on this board does not mean that they are not still "strangers" in some conception. It's not an invalid stance to say that somebody is still predominately a stranger if you have not met them face to face and put in the effort to cultivate a personal relationship.

I have to agree with Mistress (and I know that's gonna count for a whole lotta nothin' to a lot of folks since...well, you know...) that the idea of letting people I don't know tell me how I can and cannot define myself within the deeply personal realm of sexuality and intimacy is highly off-putting.

A question: what should younger dominants, coming in relatively inexperienced, call themselves? What is wrong with the term "Mistress" to apply to a woman 18 to whatever?

For some common reference, here are the first few definitions from the Merriam-Webster dictionary:

"1 : a woman who has power, authority, or ownership: as a : the female head of a household b : a woman who employs or supervises servants c : a woman who is in charge of a school or other establishment d : a woman of the Scottish nobility having a status comparable to that of a master
2 a chiefly British : a female teacher or tutor b : a woman who has achieved mastery in some field
3 : something personified as female that rules, directs, or dominates"

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RE: Principles of a Female Led Relationship - 9/24/2009 9:19:16 AM

NoreenSwan

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Why do you care so much about what other people attach to their names? Who cares? If they want to call themselves Master so and so or Mistress so and so, what's it to you? You're going to have to live with it because we all have to deal with what other people do that are strange to us like your always capitalizing yourself on the boards. Some of us don't really think it's cool and find it a little ridiculous but it is what it is. And I find it interesting that you downplay years of oppression, rape, beatings and denial of basic rights of women yet you make a post complaining that some men get treated unfairly.

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