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RE: The Ethics of Desire - 10/6/2009 5:28:16 AM   
slaveluci


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP
Necrophilia for example is wrong to do. The thoughts may be compulsive but planning to break into a funeral home and steal a corpse are conscious choices. You could just as easily wank to those thoughts without committing harm.

Even with this example, I can think of ways necrophilia could be done without breaking and entering or theft. If it doesn't involve those property crimes and it DOES involve someone you loved, is it still "wrong," then? Gross, maybe, but wrong? What if your spouse or lover said they wanted that to happen? There's always ways "wrong" things can be seen as right. Circumstances vary............luci


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RE: The Ethics of Desire - 10/6/2009 5:32:42 AM   
RCdc


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ialdabaoth

1. Did you consciously choose every one of your strong desires, or have some of them sort of filtered up, unbidden from the deep recesses of your psyche?


No I don't cosciously choose every one.
No some are not filtered up.

quote:

2. How would you feel about yourself if one of your strong desires was something that everyone thought was an utterly horrible thing to even WANT, let alone DO?
(Examples: homosexuality in certain cultures, pedophilia in certain other cultures, necrophilia, bestiality, utterly non-consentual rape, torture/snuff, etc.)


Where I am in my life now, what other people believe does not bother me.

quote:

3. Given that there are people with such desires, do you think they are morally responsible for them? Put another way - does having those desires make them bad, regardless of whether they act on them? Why or why not?


No I do not.

the.dark.

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love isnt gazing into each others eyes - it's looking forward in the same direction

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RE: The Ethics of Desire - 10/6/2009 5:34:53 AM   
Justme696


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quote:

There's always ways "wrong" things can be seen as right


I think that is one of the reasons we have laws.

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RE: The Ethics of Desire - 10/6/2009 5:38:27 AM   
slaveluci


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Justme696

quote:

There's always ways "wrong" things can be seen as right


I think that is one of the reasons we have laws.

Yes and that's a whole other thread you can start : "Legality -vs - Morality." Just because something is illegal doesn't make it "bad" or immoral and there are plenty of "legal" things I find morally reprehensible. I'm not advocating porking the dead...I'm just saying that no matter how "bad" or even illegal something seems, there can almost always be a scenario found where it's not as horrible as it seems. Not trying to advocate mass necrophilia here.............luci

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RE: The Ethics of Desire - 10/6/2009 5:41:29 AM   
Justme696


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Status: offline 		Not sure if it is an other thread if extreme examples are used. Because it is propably a realistic factor that influences people on making fantasies come true or not.

Lol..please no mass necrophilia...I want to be a virgin corpse.  

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RE: The Ethics of Desire - 10/6/2009 5:53:25 AM   
RCdc


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Justme696
Lol..please no mass necrophilia...I want to be a virgin corpse.  


Pft... D, ya just so selfish...
Now what am I supposed to do?

the.dark.

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RE: The Ethics of Desire - 10/6/2009 6:03:57 AM   
Mercnbeth


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quote:

1. Did you consciously choose every one of your strong desires, or have some of them sort of filtered up, unbidden from the deep recesses of your psyche?


just realized they were there...the conscious action was participating in real time beyond the realm of personal fantasy.

quote:

2. How would you feel about yourself if one of your strong desires was something that everyone thought was an utterly horrible thing to even WANT, let alone DO?


that sums up how this slave found herself, before meeting Master.  Her desires were perceived as so utterly horrible that she had decided intimate relationships would always elude her...and had accepted that she was not relationship material because of those desires that had repulsed everyone she atttempted to craft a relationship with.

quote:

3. Given that there are people with such desires, do you think they are morally responsible for them? Put another way - does having those desires make them bad, regardless of whether they act on them? Why or why not?


having confessed to having and acting on desires that most folks find ethically/morally repugnant, it would be incredibly hypocritical if this slave held others as "bad", regardless of their actions...so she doesn't.

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RE: The Ethics of Desire - 10/6/2009 6:06:28 AM   
Justme696


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

quote:

ORIGINAL: Justme696
Lol..please no mass necrophilia...I want to be a virgin corpse.  


Pft... D, ya just so selfish...
Now what am I supposed to do?

the.dark.


ahhhhhhhhhhhh  sorry....I make an exception for you.
But wait a week..till..I have this natural lubrication...don't like pain...

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RE: The Ethics of Desire - 10/6/2009 7:35:42 AM   
daddysprop247


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ialdabaoth

1. Did you consciously choose every one of your strong desires, or have some of them sort of filtered up, unbidden from the deep recesses of your psyche?


i don't believe that you can really choose your desires...so yes my desires, strong desires, all have sprung up from someplace deep within.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ialdabaoth
2. How would you feel about yourself if one of your strong desires was something that everyone thought was an utterly horrible thing to even WANT, let alone DO?
(Examples: homosexuality in certain cultures, pedophilia in certain other cultures, necrophilia, bestiality, utterly non-consentual rape, torture/snuff, etc.)


i have desires which fall under that category...despicable crimes against humanity...so what if i always place myself in the role of victim? it makes the desire no less dark, and in many ways, perhaps even more so. sometimes when i come across stories in the news which involve the themes of many of these darker desires, i find myself being aroused and titillated at the thought of a real live person enduring such things. yet at the same time, i feel immense sadness and empathy for these victims, and much hatred for their attackers. this inner conflict has always caused me much guilt and shame. however i have learned to come to terms with this part of myself, so i no longer view myself as being a dark or bad person simply because of these desires.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ialdabaoth

3. Given that there are people with such desires, do you think they are morally responsible for them? Put another way - does having those desires make them bad, regardless of whether they act on them? Why or why not?


no. desires or thoughts alone are not what makes someone evil or morally reprehensible.

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RE: The Ethics of Desire - 10/6/2009 8:01:54 AM   
Andalusite


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ialdabaoth
That brings up an interesting point, though. If something is a compulsion, then it seems there's no real choice involved. If there isn't choice involved, why do we still see it as a moral failing?

If they are tempted to act on those desires, if they are suffering from a compulsion to harm others in those ways, then it is their responsibility to get help or put themselves in a situation where they have no opportunity to act on them. Get counselling, get committed to a mental institution, never go out alone, get chemical castration, whatever is needed to address it. Just "letting it happen" without taking steps to prevent it is a moral failing/unethical.

< Message edited by Andalusite -- 10/6/2009 8:04:02 AM >

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RE: The Ethics of Desire - 10/6/2009 8:19:00 AM   
marie2


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ialdabaoth

1. Did you consciously choose every one of your strong desires, or have some of them sort of filtered up, unbidden from the deep recesses of your psyche?


They've filtered up.

quote:

2. How would you feel about yourself if one of your strong desires was something that everyone thought was an utterly horrible thing to even WANT, let alone DO?
(Examples: homosexuality in certain cultures, pedophilia in certain other cultures, necrophilia, bestiality, utterly non-consentual rape, torture/snuff, etc.)

 
Not sure.  For real, I haven't had any types of desires that could or would victimize another person if I carried them out.  But if I did,  I'd probably wonder where it came from, resign myself to the fact that I may never know, and I'd happily go on with my life knowing that I can never act on those desires, but I *can* act on other desires, and maybe by acting on other desires, I'd become less desirous of the "bad" stuff.

quote:

3. Given that there are people with such desires, do you think they are morally responsible for them? Put another way - does having those desires make them bad, regardless of whether they act on them? Why or why not?


I don't think having those desires makes a person bad.  I think maybe they can't help but have those desires.  Lot's of people have all sorts of desires that they don't act on because it's not a good idea, this is no different. I think when you act on something that is going to vicitimize another person, then, yeah, you've done a really fucked up thing. 

< Message edited by marie2 -- 10/6/2009 8:21:04 AM >

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RE: The Ethics of Desire - 10/6/2009 8:34:24 AM   
Wheldrake


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ialdabaoth
1. Did you consciously choose every one of your strong desires, or have some of them sort of filtered up, unbidden from the deep recesses of your psyche?

Filtered up, no question. I've never seriously tried to either cultivate or suppress a desire, although I've sometimes thought this might make an interesting experiment.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ialdabaoth
2. How would you feel about yourself if one of your strong desires was something that everyone thought was an utterly horrible thing to even WANT, let alone DO?

I think most of sexual desires would inspire bafflement and distaste at worst, although some of my non-sexual ones would probably inspire horror. Doesn't really bother me - as long as I don't act on any desires that I personally consider horrible, I'll sleep well at night.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ialdabaoth
3. Given that there are people with such desires, do you think they are morally responsible for them? Put another way - does having those desires make them bad, regardless of whether they act on them? Why or why not?

I've never found the moral question of whether a person is good or bad to be anywhere near as interesting or important as the practical question of whether I think myself and the rest of society need to be protected from him or her. Since I take the distinction between thoughts and actions very seriously, I don't believe society should take steps against people who merely think about doing horrible things. If they demonstrate a clear intention to actually do them, that's different.

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RE: The Ethics of Desire - 10/6/2009 8:55:33 AM   
looking4princess


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quote:

ORIGINAL: daintydimples


We are all morally responsible for our actions. Morally responsible for our desires? I don't see that. But, I feel the OP is attempting to inspire simplistic and moralistic conclusions about issues that are highly complex and have less to do with morality and more to do with psychology..

Let's take pedophilia, since I think most of us would consider that morally reprehensible. It's easy to say, "Having the desire to have sex with children is not wrong, but acting on the desire is wrong." Unfortunately pedophiles DO act on their desires. They tend to be highly compelled to do so, and once they have crossed that line from desire to action, it is impossible to stop them, unless they are locked up where they have no access to children.

A compulsion is an irresistible impulse to act, regardless of the rationality of the motivation.

I would consider several things on your list as compulsions, not desires IF someone has crossed that line and chosen to act on it: pedophilia, necrophilia, rape, torture/snuff (I viewed this as a sexually sadistic serial killing).

I would also say that if someone spends large amounts of time fantasizing about these kinds of desire, they have a good chance of acting on them at some point. The psychology of how and why this happens is hugely complex. Although many pedophiles have been abused as children themselves, not everyone who is sexually abused becomes a pedophile. Those that do act on their compulsions do not so because they have managed to morally justify their actions, quite the contrary.  They know what they are doing is morally reprehensible and do it anyway. That is the very nature of compulsion.





This is really an interesting problem...where does desire become compulsion and what is your responsibility if compulsion leads to harm to yourself or to others? I have a desire for chocolates that on occasion leads to momentary compulsion which is solved only by throwing away half the bag. But that is tame stuff.

I have often speculated that all of us in the BDSM community are part of a spectrum of desire and compulsion when we act out our desires (for the sake of argument here i am presuming deviance) I see us in the middle of an electomagnetic spectrum of sexual deviance with long wave, boring vanilla missionary sex on one end and socially condemned harmful, loathesome deviant sex on the shortwave, high energy end, wherein lie the serial killers, ritual cannibalist, and pedophiles for starters. Or you may wish to use the analogy of a normal distribution curve. Doesn't matter. I suspect there is a continuum of desires and behaviors in the human psyche, and I think of Jeffrey Dahmer or some well publicized pedophiles. I think there but for the grace of a neurochemical crapshoot go I. How far removed are my compulsions from his and why am I so damn lucky and he was not?

I would not compare cannibalists and serial killers to compulsive cross-dressers because obviously there is a difference in the harm being done. For the most part cross-dressers do no harm, as i understand it, except maybe to reluctant SOs after they are discovered. I don't mean to pick on cross-dressers here. However, some do from time to time, i have read, purge themselves, i.e. throw away their clothing collection in an attempt to rid themselves of the compulsion, just as i throw away my half eaten bag of chocolates (and then at a later time go out and replenish my stash)

I could just as easily have singled out sadists or exhibitionists. I am not being judgmental on the desire. I am trying to raise the question of the nature of compulsion. How resistable is compulsion? Jeffrey Dahmer was unable to resist the compulsion. Unfortuantely for him and his victims. But i see Jeffrey as a victim as well. It is too easy to say he knew what he was doing was morally wrong. His actions were compulsive. They transported him into an entirely disconnected world made up of just him and his victims. Why couldn't he resist the urge to act? I am not saying he should not have paid for his crimes. I am just wondering how well we understand the source of deviant desire and how much we know about the grip of compusion. How much Free Will is there really in deviant desires and morally reprehensible compulsions? Not to make excuses for human monsters but I suspect Free Will is absent. So, if compulsion is an irresistible impulse to act, as daintydimples defines it above, is there really an ethical responsibility?

Are Monsters ethically responsible or are they just Monsters?

Sometimes i feel that as a committed BDSM perv in my heart i have monsters for distant cousins.

I wonder if that makes sense to you all.

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Where would we be without the agitators of the world attaching the electrodes of knowledge to the nipples of ignorance? I ask you.

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RE: The Ethics of Desire - 10/6/2009 9:46:26 AM   
Acer49


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ialdabaoth

Here's a serious question... or series of them, really:

1. Did you consciously choose every one of your strong desires, or have some of them sort of filtered up, unbidden from the deep recesses of your psyche?

2. How would you feel about yourself if one of your strong desires was something that everyone thought was an utterly horrible thing to even WANT, let alone DO?
(Examples: homosexuality in certain cultures, pedophilia in certain other cultures, necrophilia, bestiality, utterly non-consentual rape, torture/snuff, etc.)

3. Given that there are people with such desires, do you think they are morally responsible for them? Put another way - does having those desires make them bad, regardless of whether they act on them? Why or why not?


1-My wants and needs are what creates my desires. I do not believe they just simply pop up from deep within oneself for no ewason at all
2-If I have a desire, I have already determined it is ok for me. whatever others may feel about it, is unimportant. However if everyone was opposed to it, and their participation was needed, there would be no point in having it.
3-It is not my right to pass judgement on others. I believe people have the right to think and feel as they choose, however when those wants and feelings result in actions with others who feel differently, I will judge the action and hopefully not the person. Regardless of the activity, if it is not consentual, it is unacceptable to me in anyway.

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RE: The Ethics of Desire - 10/6/2009 11:26:32 AM   
looking4princess


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Andalusite

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ialdabaoth
That brings up an interesting point, though. If something is a compulsion, then it seems there's no real choice involved. If there isn't choice involved, why do we still see it as a moral failing?

If they are tempted to act on those desires, if they are suffering from a compulsion to harm others in those ways, then it is their responsibility to get help or put themselves in a situation where they have no opportunity to act on them. Get counselling, get committed to a mental institution, never go out alone, get chemical castration, whatever is needed to address it. Just "letting it happen" without taking steps to prevent it is a moral failing/unethical.


I wonder if it is all that simple. I would suggest that acting upon a compulsion is preceeded by a certain amount of self-delusion and rationalization. I can imagine that Jack the Ripper found proper reason for what he was doing however irrational those reasons may seem to us who are not so morbidly self-tortured.

_____________________________

vincent....

Where would we be without the agitators of the world attaching the electrodes of knowledge to the nipples of ignorance? I ask you.

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RE: The Ethics of Desire - 10/6/2009 12:48:35 PM   
MasterFireMaam


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ialdabaoth

Here's a serious question... or series of them, really:

1. Did you consciously choose every one of your strong desires, or have some of them sort of filtered up, unbidden from the deep recesses of your psyche?


We feel that all of our strong desires are chosen before we come into this existence. In fact, we won't come until we are guaranteed to have these things. It's like picking your hand and then life is about how you play that hand. Campbell says, in reference to Bliss, "No one can tell you what it's going to be," and We feel that refers to us, once in this existence, as well.

quote:

2. How would you feel about yourself if one of your strong desires was something that everyone thought was an utterly horrible thing to even WANT, let alone DO?
(Examples: homosexuality in certain cultures, pedophilia in certain other cultures, necrophilia, bestiality, utterly non-consentual rape, torture/snuff, etc.)


We don't know. We don't have desires that EVERYONE has an issue with. We have some that lots of people might object to, but not everyone. We would like to think that We would either pursue our desire or get treatment for it; sometimes the trial of having the desire is the point.

quote:

3. Given that there are people with such desires, do you think they are morally responsible for them? Put another way - does having those desires make them bad, regardless of whether they act on them? Why or why not?


We feel we are all morally responsible for the ACTIONS these desires cause. Being morally responsible means being responsible for how we treat ourselves and others.

Master Fire


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RE: The Ethics of Desire - 10/6/2009 1:03:12 PM   
CreativeDominant


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ialdabaoth

Here's a serious question... or series of them, really:

1. Did you consciously choose every one of your strong desires, or have some of them sort of filtered up, unbidden from the deep recesses of your psyche?
No, I do not.  Desire is formed by many things and why the desire for something becomes strong and takes hold is dependant on many factors.  Some of them started out simply...I saw a pretty girl, she stimulated a desire within me, it grew.  I saw another girl, just as pretty, and initial interest turned into a revulsion.  Why?  Differing factors that increased the desire for one and not for the other.  These were known and almost immediate cases.  But there are deeper, darker desires that our subconscious may be well aware of, brought about by varying things over the course of our life but never...for whatever reason brought to the surface.  Then something brings them forth to the conscious recesses of our mind and soul and we go "Whoaaaaaaaaaaaaa...where the hell did THAT come from?"  From within and without.

quote:

2. How would you feel about yourself if one of your strong desires was something that everyone thought was an utterly horrible thing to even WANT, let alone DO?
(Examples: homosexuality in certain cultures, pedophilia in certain other cultures, necrophilia, bestiality, utterly non-consentual rape, torture/snuff, etc.)
  I'd  wonder about it but unless there is a strong desire to go out and act on it or an increasing focus on thinking about it, I'd accept it.  There are things within all of us that we don't like and keep at bay...some things we don't like and don't keep at bay because we cannot and they are not necessarily illegal---cruelty of a sort, for example---and some things we don't like, know we don't like, know they are not accepted and so we make an effort to erase them.  But as noted, there are dark desires that most of us have within us...what we choose to do with them, whether avoid them....get rid of them in some manner...or act on them in some way...or just enjoy the fantasy of them...is up to each of us, just as the consequences of choosing to act on them is on the one who does so.

quote:

3. Given that there are people with such desires, do you think they are morally responsible for them? Put another way - does having those desires make them bad, regardless of whether they act on them? Why or why not?
That is a hard question.  Almost any act can be rationalized...be it murder or bestiality.  There are things I don't wish to engage in and yes, some of them are desires within me.  I generally stay within the construct of the society I live in and I think I am a good father, good doctor, good friend, good dominant, good brother, good human being.  That doesn't stop me from thinking about and desiring some things that would change some people's opinion of me...and yet, would not change others' opinion of me.  This is why I share thoughts of these things with people that I trust and not with everyone within my sphere.  My moral responsibility comes in when I choose to act on those desires...I face the consequences of my choices.  I expect other people's moral responsibility to come in in the same manner.  I will not hold someone responsible under my morals for thinking "God...how great it would be to kill that friggin' boss of mine".  Where I would hold them responsible under my morals is them choosing to act on it.  Again though, and this is where you are going to run into arguments that may not even be worth having, there are degrees of morality and there are degrees of desires.

< Message edited by CreativeDominant -- 10/6/2009 1:17:30 PM >

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RE: The Ethics of Desire - 10/6/2009 1:28:00 PM   
CallaFirestormBW


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quote:

Isn't a desire more close to reality then a fantasy? Or is perhaps desire the step comming after fantasy
( could be also that I translate the word desire the wrong way as non english person)


"Desire" is the idea... the "want"... the vague thought that something is interesting, captivating or fascinating.

"Fantasy" is typically more of an actively imagined scenario, where, in one's mind, one goes through all the motions and 'dreams out' the desire.

Does that make sense?

Dame Calla


_____________________________

***
Said to me recently: "Look, I know you're the "voice of reason"... but dammit, I LIKE being unreasonable!!!!"

"Your mind is more interested in the challenge of becoming than the challenge of doing." Jon Benson, Bodybuilder/Trainer

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RE: The Ethics of Desire - 10/6/2009 1:37:30 PM   
Justme696


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Status: offline 		Thank you...yes, makes sense.


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RE: The Ethics of Desire - 10/6/2009 5:40:58 PM   
CallaFirestormBW


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ialdabaoth

Here's a serious question... or series of them, really:

1. Did you consciously choose every one of your strong desires, or have some of them sort of filtered up, unbidden from the deep recesses of your psyche?


I don't think it's possible to choose your desires. I think we can choose to accept or -deny- our desires, but what trips our trigger is an involuntary. I think I sort of consider myself a bit of a tar-pit... opaque and viscous, with interesting things under the surface that may bubble up at any time.

quote:

2. How would you feel about yourself if one of your strong desires was something that everyone thought was an utterly horrible thing to even WANT, let alone DO?
(Examples: homosexuality in certain cultures, pedophilia in certain other cultures, necrophilia, bestiality, utterly non-consentual rape, torture/snuff, etc.)


So? Honestly, I have desires, interests, and things that I want as part of my life all the time that are profound taboos in my culture -- I don't cram it down other people's throats, I stay subtle and have been fortunate that the people who are intimately involved in my life find my preferences strange but not off-putting -for them-. If they did find them off-putting, they'd be more than entitled to their opinion... but we probably wouldn't be as close as we are, because the people that I am -that- close to know -everything- about me... every dark nook, cranny, and corner that I've explored... and they're welcome to poke around in the ones I haven't scoured through yet.

quote:

3. Given that there are people with such desires, do you think they are morally responsible for them? Put another way - does having those desires make them bad, regardless of whether they act on them? Why or why not?


If people never act on a desire, who knows or cares whether they have it? If all they do is talk about it, what harm is it doing? I certainly don't give two hoots. I have enough challenge in dealing with my -own- ethical structures. The only time it would -ever- become an issue is if someone tried to push their desires on me or someone I cherished without consent -- then we'd have some serious issue. If having 'bad' desires makes someone a bad person -- oh well, I'm screwed... and I couldn't care less.

Dame Calla

DC


_____________________________

***
Said to me recently: "Look, I know you're the "voice of reason"... but dammit, I LIKE being unreasonable!!!!"

"Your mind is more interested in the challenge of becoming than the challenge of doing." Jon Benson, Bodybuilder/Trainer

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