The Ethics of Desire (Full Version)

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Ialdabaoth -> The Ethics of Desire (10/5/2009 10:00:35 PM)

Here's a serious question... or series of them, really:

1. Did you consciously choose every one of your strong desires, or have some of them sort of filtered up, unbidden from the deep recesses of your psyche?

2. How would you feel about yourself if one of your strong desires was something that everyone thought was an utterly horrible thing to even WANT, let alone DO?
(Examples: homosexuality in certain cultures, pedophilia in certain other cultures, necrophilia, bestiality, utterly non-consentual rape, torture/snuff, etc.)

3. Given that there are people with such desires, do you think they are morally responsible for them? Put another way - does having those desires make them bad, regardless of whether they act on them? Why or why not?



porcelaine -> RE: The Ethics of Desire (10/5/2009 10:18:55 PM)

quote:

1  Did you consciously choose every one of your strong desires, or have some of them sort of filtered up, unbidden from the deep recesses of your psyche?


yes i did and i was aware that many were not considered socially acceptable. when i found myself curious about things i intentionally spent time talking to those that practiced the fetish in question. i conducted several interviews to ascertain why they did it, how it began, what they got out of it, feelings, complications, etc. i walked away embracing nearly everything i learned about. those were the good ol' days!

as for the second part of your question. i sincerely free the beast. i don't attach emotion to what i like or i'm willing to engage in. that makes it much easier for me to wrap my mind around much more. for me it is always a question of how far am i willing to travel. i know for certain that is largely dependent on the one i'm traveling with. some people just inspire a deeper level of surrender and perversion than others can. i'm a willing girl. for me it isn't a matter of complying because He wants it. i actually get off on it as well. that's much better in my opinion.

quote:

2. How would you feel about yourself if one of your strong desires was something that everyone thought was an utterly horrible thing to even WANT, let alone DO?
(Examples: homosexuality in certain cultures, pedophilia in certain other cultures, necrophilia, bestiality, utterly non-consentual rape, torture/snuff, etc.)


you haven't mentioned one thing on that list that activates my ick. i've either done it, been with someone that did it, or knew someone that was into it. i just accept that we each have different receptors that allow us to respond to different stimuli. i'm completely okay with this and don't expect someone to like what i do. as for how i would feel. i'm with nike on this one. just do it. who cares what they think.

quote:

3. Given that there are people with such desires, do you think they are morally responsible for them? Put another way - does having those desires make them bad, regardless of whether they act on them? Why or why not?


not at all. i have enough stuff on my plate without trying to take on humanity's sexuality. i feel deviance is fine and it is difficult to know what anyone is really doing behind closed doors. i don't believe the desires make anyone bad, it is what we do with them that warrants concern. i'd like to think i have my dividing line. but i've recently come to understand that line is always fine and it is merely a matter of meeting someone that is capable of compelling you to cross it. i suppose being honest in this manner allows me to understand on some level how odd things happen.

of course i relate a lot of this back to my slavery and when i do and consider what i believed to be limits and what really falls into that category, it can be a little disturbing. but i know i felt the same way about other things before i accepted them as mine. in these instances i explore and try to learn all i can to make peace with it. i don't like having these sort of internal conflicts.

porcelaine



Ialdabaoth -> RE: The Ethics of Desire (10/5/2009 10:23:16 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: porcelaine
you haven't mentioned one thing on that list that activates my ick. i've either done it, been with someone that did it, or knew someone that was into it. i just accept that we each have different receptors that allow us to respond to different stimuli. i'm completely okay with this and don't expect someone to like what i do. as for how i would feel. i'm with nike on this one. just do it. who cares what they think.


Well, it depends on whether people show up with guns and badges at 3 in the morning, I suppose...



porcelaine -> RE: The Ethics of Desire (10/5/2009 10:29:50 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ialdabaoth

Well, it depends on whether people show up with guns and badges at 3 in the morning, I suppose...


that happens far less than people think and is usually the result of them telling someone that tells another. there's so much going on under people's noses it isn't funny. and it isn't the weirdo on the block that's doing it. but the suit clad, briefcase toting male and his respectable companion that are usually the biggest culprits.

porcelaine



Ialdabaoth -> RE: The Ethics of Desire (10/5/2009 10:42:26 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: porcelaine

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ialdabaoth

Well, it depends on whether people show up with guns and badges at 3 in the morning, I suppose...


that happens far less than people think and is usually the result of them telling someone that tells another. there's so much going on under people's noses it isn't funny. and it isn't the weirdo on the block that's doing it. but the suit clad, briefcase toting male and his respectable companion that are usually the biggest culprits.

porcelaine



Oh, I am WELL aware. Unfortunately, I AM the weirdo on the block - I've never quite managed to construct or maintain a proper "image". If mom thinks that someone's diddling her precious 10-year-old daughter, of course she's going to come after me first - even when she knows that it's her husband, because she watches him do it every night.



porcelaine -> RE: The Ethics of Desire (10/5/2009 10:50:05 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ialdabaoth

Oh, I am WELL aware. Unfortunately, I AM the weirdo on the block - I've never quite managed to construct or maintain a proper "image". If mom thinks that someone's diddling her precious 10-year-old daughter, of course she's going to come after me first - even when she knows that it's her husband, because she watches him do it every night.


yep and for all you know she's participating. at the very least her knowledge makes her culpable. but her loyalties are to him and outweigh the well being of the child.

porcelaine



porcelaine -> RE: The Ethics of Desire (10/5/2009 10:53:56 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ialdabaoth

utterly non-consentual rape


i was skimming fast but i want to comment on this one. the context is really important. if you're walking around snatching people off the streets. i just can't wrap my mind around that. however, when you involve people in relationships that have an exchange and the dominant party says this is going to happen. these people will be served. did she really consent to that? probably not. but she did consent to Him. so she's having a rape inspired gang bang.

porcelaine



IronBear -> RE: The Ethics of Desire (10/5/2009 10:57:15 PM)

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Desire is a sense of longing for a person or object or hoping for an outcome. The same sense is expressed by emotions such as "craving" or "hankering".

It has nothing to do with ethics or consciously choosing and everything to do with things which are deep-rooted in you often causing fear, pain or pleasure and happiness.

How we handle each desire is entirely up to us although some appear to be controlled by their desires which surfaces a cravings. As always I follow my gut and a strict code of ethics as to which path I will take. Whilst being a born romantic this is oft tempered with what many see as my cold bloodedness and at times lack of humour.




DavanKael -> RE: The Ethics of Desire (10/5/2009 10:58:28 PM)

Cool thread, Ialdabaoth.  :> 

1. Did you consciously choose every one of your strong desires, or have some of them sort of filtered up, unbidden from the deep recesses of your psyche?
****Nope, I did not consciously choose some of my strong desires. 

2. How would you feel about yourself if one of your strong desires was something that everyone thought was an utterly horrible thing to even WANT, let alone DO?
(Examples: homosexuality in certain cultures, pedophilia in certain other cultures, necrophilia, bestiality, utterly non-consentual rape, torture/snuff, etc.)
****I don't suspect that 'everyone' would think a few of  things that bubble into my fantasies are uttly horrible but I don't particularly care if people do...because I have a thought does not require I act on it.  In terms of wanting...hmmm, I'm not 100% sure that I atually do want all of the things that I fantsize about.  In fact, I can say that I don't actually want some of them for one reason or another. 

3. Given that there are people with such desires, do you think they are morally responsible for them? Put another way - does having those desires make them bad, regardless of whether they act on them? Why or why not?
****I think the answer to this is largely based in who or what would be harmed via the living out of said fantasy.  Certain fantasies in and of themselves throw up red flags, particularly if they are pervasive or if a person fixates on them as I believe that thought is more likely to come into action. 
Most fantasies, imo, harmless. 
I remember the first fantasy (Actually, a dream that got me to thinking) troubled me on a moral or 'shame'-based-level.  I was in my middle teens.  I contemplated it, I shared it with my then boyfriend who became my husband), and worked it out and through in terms of the whats and whys of details.  After that, much easier to have a fantasy that is more 'extreme' and be totally okay with it. 
I have, since I have sex less often than I wish since I became separated from my husband (Well, I didn't have it as often as I wished with him either but more frequently than since he and I split), I have noticed my fantasies to have become more varied and more extreme.  Same as above, not all I intend to act on. 
  Davan



Elisabella -> RE: The Ethics of Desire (10/5/2009 11:25:20 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ialdabaoth

Here's a serious question... or series of them, really:

1. Did you consciously choose every one of your strong desires, or have some of them sort of filtered up, unbidden from the deep recesses of your psyche?

2. How would you feel about yourself if one of your strong desires was something that everyone thought was an utterly horrible thing to even WANT, let alone DO?
(Examples: homosexuality in certain cultures, pedophilia in certain other cultures, necrophilia, bestiality, utterly non-consentual rape, torture/snuff, etc.)

3. Given that there are people with such desires, do you think they are morally responsible for them? Put another way - does having those desires make them bad, regardless of whether they act on them? Why or why not?


1. I'd say about 2/3 of them were subconscious, just filtered up, and the rest are a direct result of choices I've made in my life that brought me into contact with certain things.

2. I would most likely hate myself. I'd find them impossible to accept if the culture I was raised in found it to be as atrocious as those things you listed.

3. No I don't think people are morally responsible for having a desire, but I think they're 100% responsible for whether or not they act on it.



leadership527 -> RE: The Ethics of Desire (10/6/2009 3:20:56 AM)

1. Did you consciously choose every one of your strong desires, or have some of them sort of filtered up, unbidden from the deep recesses of your psyche?
To my knowledge, I didn't conciously choose any of them. I explore things. The ones that resonate are the ones that I explore further. But how that resonance got there is a mystery to me. At least one of the things that has cropped up was particularly troublesome for me to deal ethically.

2. How would you feel about yourself if one of your strong desires was something that everyone thought was an utterly horrible thing to even WANT, let alone DO?
(Examples: homosexuality in certain cultures, pedophilia in certain other cultures, necrophilia, bestiality, utterly non-consentual rape, torture/snuff, etc.)
Tough call. I guess in the end it'd be more important to me what I though. For instance, several of the things on your example list above aren't particularly horrifying to me. Now, if I myself thought the thing was awful, that'd be a different story. Based upon past experience, I suspect I'd edit it out of my life -- if necessary, taking the entirety of my sex drive with it to do the job thoroughly.

3. Given that there are people with such desires, do you think they are morally responsible for them? Put another way - does having those desires make them bad, regardless of whether they act on them? Why or why not?To me, yes. If someone deep down WANTS to do something that I find horrifying, then that in and of itself speaks of mutually ireconcileable differences. For instance, someone who very much WANTS to rape my wife but keeps it under control because, you know, they don't want to go to jail... that person is NOT my friend. Note, however, that I am only speaking of things which I find truly horrifying. The merely distasteful is much easier to cope with.



Level -> RE: The Ethics of Desire (10/6/2009 3:33:28 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ialdabaoth

Here's a serious question... or series of them, really:

1. Did you consciously choose every one of your strong desires, or have some of them sort of filtered up, unbidden from the deep recesses of your psyche?

2. How would you feel about yourself if one of your strong desires was something that everyone thought was an utterly horrible thing to even WANT, let alone DO?
(Examples: homosexuality in certain cultures, pedophilia in certain other cultures, necrophilia, bestiality, utterly non-consentual rape, torture/snuff, etc.)

3. Given that there are people with such desires, do you think they are morally responsible for them? Put another way - does having those desires make them bad, regardless of whether they act on them? Why or why not?


1- My desires were there, I just had to find them.

2- I don't much care how others think about things, I have enough sense to figure it out myself.

3- No, it doesn't necessarily make a person bad.



NihilusZero -> RE: The Ethics of Desire (10/6/2009 3:41:32 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ialdabaoth

Here's a serious question... or series of them, really:

1. Did you consciously choose every one of your strong desires, or have some of them sort of filtered up, unbidden from the deep recesses of your psyche?

A bit of both. Many were just slow epiphanies.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ialdabaoth

2. How would you feel about yourself if one of your strong desires was something that everyone thought was an utterly horrible thing to even WANT, let alone DO?
(Examples: homosexuality in certain cultures, pedophilia in certain other cultures, necrophilia, bestiality, utterly non-consentual rape, torture/snuff, etc.)

My only two concerns would be the odds of finding a consensual party and the legal ramifications of engaging in the act.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ialdabaoth

3. Given that there are people with such desires, do you think they are morally responsible for them? Put another way - does having those desires make them bad, regardless of whether they act on them? Why or why not?

Well, yes, they're morally responsible for them. "Bad" is a bit of a  red herring. Much more to the point is whether it makes them outcasts, criminals or perpetrators of some degree of non-consensual assault (and even the third is a gray area of subjectivity, but I think it to be the base foundation for any real universal system of ethics).



allthatjaz -> RE: The Ethics of Desire (10/6/2009 3:49:07 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ialdabaoth

Here's a serious question... or series of them, really:

1. Did you consciously choose every one of your strong desires, or have some of them sort of filtered up, unbidden from the deep recesses of your psyche?



Definitely filtered up. Some of my original hard limits have now become what I desire the most.

quote:



2. How would you feel about yourself if one of your strong desires was something that everyone thought was an utterly horrible thing to even WANT, let alone DO?
(Examples: homosexuality in certain cultures, pedophilia in certain other cultures, necrophilia, bestiality, utterly non-consentual rape, torture/snuff, etc.)




I do have what I call revulsion fantasies. An example of this may be kidnap by someone revolting and smelly and having to submit to them. I don't think I would ever carry out a fantasy like that but it does push the climax button now and again [:)]

quote:



3. Given that there are people with such desires, do you think they are morally responsible for them? Put another way - does having those desires make them bad, regardless of whether they act on them? Why or why not?


It depends. Someone who consistently fantasizes about minors under pubescent age for a period of six months is far more likely to act on that fantasy.
A couple that have similar dark fantasies such as killing people could end up like Hindley and Brady,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moors_murders
Saying that, I believe that we can have safe violent fantasies because we can draw the line between fantasy and reality.





daintydimples -> RE: The Ethics of Desire (10/6/2009 4:24:38 AM)

Did you consciously choose every one of your strong desires, or have some of them sort of filtered up, unbidden from the deep recesses of your psyche?

Desire, by it's very nature, is not consciously chosen. I can choose to act on desire (or not).

How would you feel about yourself if one of your strong desires was something that everyone thought was an utterly horrible thing to even WANT, let alone DO?

I don't base my moral compass on what other people think is morally wrong, I have my own basis. That being said, if I had a desire *I* thought was morally wrong, I would not act on it. That is, however, easier said than done.

Given that there are people with such desires, do you think they are morally responsible for them? Put another way - does having those desires make them bad, regardless of whether they act on them? Why or why not?

We are all morally responsible for our actions. Morally responsible for our desires? I don't see that. But, I feel the OP is attempting to inspire simplistic and moralistic conclusions about issues that are highly complex and have less to do with morality and more to do with psychology..

Let's take pedophilia, since I think most of us would consider that morally reprehensible. It's easy to say, "Having the desire to have sex with children is not wrong, but acting on the desire is wrong." Unfortunately pedophiles DO act on their desires. They tend to be highly compelled to do so, and once they have crossed that line from desire to action, it is impossible to stop them, unless they are locked up where they have no access to children.

A compulsion is an irresistible impulse to act, regardless of the rationality of the motivation.

I would consider several things on your list as compulsions, not desires IF someone has crossed that line and chosen to act on it: pedophilia, necrophilia, rape, torture/snuff (I viewed this as a sexually sadistic serial killing).

I would also say that if someone spends large amounts of time fantasizing about these kinds of desire, they have a good chance of acting on them at some point. The psychology of how and why this happens is hugely complex. Although many pedophiles have been abused as children themselves, not everyone who is sexually abused becomes a pedophile. Those that do act on their compulsions do not so because they have managed to morally justify their actions, quite the contrary.  They know what they are doing is morally reprehensible and do it anyway. That is the very nature of compulsion.
















Ialdabaoth -> RE: The Ethics of Desire (10/6/2009 4:35:41 AM)

That brings up an interesting point, though. If something is a compulsion, then it seems there's no real choice involved. If there isn't choice involved, why do we still see it as a moral failing?

I mean, I understand the idea of putting down rabid dogs, but we seem to place a pretty strong moral weight on things like pedophilia (heck, even on things like homosexuality, in certain places). Disturbingly enough, it seems like an equal argument could be made even in the case of sociopathy. The phrase "torture is too good for 'em" comes up, now and again.

Morality seems to be all about conscious decision-making; but how do we judge right from wrong when even the process of consciousness can be intrinsically flawed?


And finally, to come clean: My *own* 'darker' desires tend towards permanent physical mutilations - amputations, tracheostomies, and other forms of "permanent" bondage. I've seen quite a bit of people express... strong scorn and displeasure regarding such fantasies, about equal to that expressed towards other forms of sexual "deviants". So the problem isn't entirely academic, from my perspective.



DesFIP -> RE: The Ethics of Desire (10/6/2009 4:47:59 AM)

No, I don't choose a strong desire. If I did, then I could just as easily choose not to desire it.
There is nothing wrong with fantacizing about stuff, there are things that are wrong to do.
Having a desire does not mean you must act on it.

It's your actions that should be judged, not your hidden dreams.

Necrophilia for example is wrong to do. The thoughts may be compulsive but planning to break into a funeral home and steal a corpse are conscious choices. You could just as easily wank to those thoughts without committing harm.



Justme696 -> RE: The Ethics of Desire (10/6/2009 4:55:28 AM)

quote:

My *own* 'darker' desires tend towards permanent physical mutilations - amputations, tracheostomies, and other forms of "permanent" bondage. I've seen quite a bit of people express... strong scorn and displeasure regarding such fantasies


you use fantasy and desire......

Isn't a desire more close to reality then a fantasy? Or is perhaps desire the step comming after fantasy
( could be also that I translate the word desire the wrong way as non english person)



IrishMist -> RE: The Ethics of Desire (10/6/2009 5:13:19 AM)

quote:

1. Did you consciously choose every one of your strong desires, or have some of them sort of filtered up, unbidden from the deep recesses of your psyche?

NO. I did not choose any of them; they are just a part of me that thankfully, I can act on from time to time.

quote:

2. How would you feel about yourself if one of your strong desires was something that everyone thought was an utterly horrible thing to even WANT, let alone DO?

Been there, done that.
You are talking to someone who get's off on being stabbed, beaten (kicked, punched), having bones broken. I have had guns shoved down my throat, been stitched up, been shot ( though that was an accident lol ), had my bones broken on purpose...most who know of this about me are usually shocked that I would have stayed with him. But, it was what I needed; he gave me what I needed, I gave him what he needed. Everyone was happy.

quote:

3. Given that there are people with such desires, do you think they are morally responsible for them? Put another way - does having those desires make them bad, regardless of whether they act on them? Why or why not?

I am not responsible for the desires themselves; I am however, responsible for the actions taken to fulfill them.



slaveluci -> RE: The Ethics of Desire (10/6/2009 5:22:19 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ialdabaoth

Here's a serious question... or series of them, really:

1. Did you consciously choose every one of your strong desires, or have some of them sort of filtered up, unbidden from the deep recesses of your psyche?

I feel my strongest desires are indeed NOT chosen at all. The strongest ones definitely "bubble up" for somewhere deep and perhaps dark in some people's opinion, I suppose.

quote:

2. How would you feel about yourself if one of your strong desires was something that everyone thought was an utterly horrible thing to even WANT, let alone DO?
(Examples: homosexuality in certain cultures, pedophilia in certain other cultures, necrophilia, bestiality, utterly non-consentual rape, torture/snuff, etc.)

Some of my strong desires definitely DO fit this category. We're forbidden to even speak of them here[8|] and most people definitely would not find them kosher. Master is the only person I've talked about them with and that was difficult for me.

quote:

3. Given that there are people with such desires, do you think they are morally responsible for them? Put another way - does having those desires make them bad, regardless of whether they act on them? Why or why not?

Having any kind of desires does not make someone "bad." Sometimes even acting on them doesn't make them "bad" in my estimation. It all depends on what the desires are and who they're acted upon with. Just having taboo thoughts and desires doesn't even come close to making me (or anyone else) "bad." Truth is, I think we all have them. Some of us are just more OK about admitting it and loving it..............luci






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